same shaping force? Galaxy, solar system, planets?

these bodies apparently are disk-shaped by the same geometrical forces. (?)

with each you have a somewhat enlarged globular center with a very thin ring or
arms emanating outwards from a midpoint in the central structure.

in galaxies you have a black hole in a galaxy center with billions of stars in
a thin disk or spiral arms,
and in a solar system similarly you have a star in a system center,
and in many planets each with its own ring/moons on a plane from center.

this configuration seems almost universal.

really dumb question--- when and if it eventually returns back in upon itself,
why would not the universe be similarly shaped?

TIA
jc

On 20 Jul 2003 19:55:06 GMT, (Scribe2b) wrote:

these bodies apparently are disk-shaped by the same geometrical forces. (?)

with each you have a somewhat enlarged globular center with a very thin ring or
arms emanating outwards from a midpoint in the central structure.

in galaxies you have a black hole in a galaxy center with billions of stars in
a thin disk or spiral arms,
and in a solar system similarly you have a star in a system center,
and in many planets each with its own ring/moons on a plane from center.

this configuration seems almost universal.

really dumb question--- when and if it eventually returns back in upon itself,
why would not the universe be similarly shaped?

No. In your examples, you use "shape" in the everyday way that most people
understand it, as a description of an object in three dimensions. The Universe
is a four-dimensional structure, and its "shape" cannot ever be described as a
disk, sphere, or any such term.

BTW, it seems nearly certain now that the Universe will never experience a Big
Crunch.

_________________________________________________

Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com

these bodies apparently are disk-shaped by the same geometrical forces. (?)


with each you have a somewhat enlarged globular center with a very thin ring
or
arms emanating outwards from a midpoint in the central structure

forget the universe.
why are these structures all disk shaped?
thanks
jc

On 20 Jul 2003 21:05:51 GMT, (Scribe2b) wrote:

forget the universe.
why are these structures all disk shaped?
thanks

They aren't. Spiral galaxies consist of a generally spherical center surrounded
by a disk that can range from very small to very large. But elliptical galaxies
are not disks, ranging from spherical to oblate spherical. Irregular galaxies
also are not disks.

At a larger scale, galaxy clusters are not disks, although they represent
gravitationally bound material.

Solar systems are disk-like because they form from collapsing clouds of gas and
dust. Conservation of angular momentum requires this material to spin faster and
faster as gravity collapses the cloud, and to flatten into a disk. Most of the
material ends up forming the star, but some coalesces out to create planets,
which naturally lie on the plane of the disk. Later interactions may result in
some deviation from this plane. As a consequence, all the planets in our solar
system lie on slightly different planes, with Pluto quite significantly tipped.
Planets have rotational inclinations that may be substantially different from
their orbital planes.

_________________________________________________

Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com

Unlikely, because there would be no "central mass" with which to start
the flattening process, NOR the rotational forces present, as with
Saturn's rings, our Solar System, and spiral galaxies in general. (Your
small samplings, containing a massive 'core').

[And BTW, flattening is not really Universal...something like 80% (or
more) of *all* galaxies are of the elliptical variety, and are, more or
less, spherordical in shape....ie...not 'flattened', probably because
of low, or no, rotational component and/or very even distribution of
stellar masses. So since we assume that the entire known visible
Universe is pretty much 'evenly distributed', AND non-rotating, would it
not be more likely to assume a (continued) spherical shape,
similar to an {E-1 or E-2} elliptical galaxy, as opposed to any other
shape? (If there were money involved, that's where I'd place MY best bet!)

But the question, even a hypothetical one, while not dumb, is
meaningless under today's outlook, because we (our Universe) are on a
one-way trip outbound, and not only expanding, but evidently are
*accelerating* our outbound expansion, according to the latest
3 independent studies. The "Big Crunch" ending has pretty much been
ruled out....even before the 'acceleration' component was recently
discovered. Ours is an eventual "heat death", due to lack of energy.
Clear Skies,
Tom W.




Scribe2b wrote:
these bodies apparently are disk-shaped by the same geometrical forces. (?)

with each you have a somewhat enlarged globular center with a very thin ring or
arms emanating outwards from a midpoint in the central structure.

in galaxies you have a black hole in a galaxy center with billions of stars in
a thin disk or spiral arms,
and in a solar system similarly you have a star in a system center,
and in many planets each with its own ring/moons on a plane from center.

this configuration seems almost universal.

really dumb question--- when and if it eventually returns back in upon itself,
why would not the universe be similarly shaped?

TIA
jc

On 20 Jul 2003 23:41:31 GMT, (Scribe2b) wrote:

chris
many thanks for your generous time and comments.
so... the milky way isnt somewhat disklike seen from the horizontal?
jere

The Milky Way is a spiral galaxy with a substantial disk, which is why we see it
as a band of light across the sky. But the Milky Way represents just one type of
galaxy. Presumably it is flattened into a disk because its member stars share a
common rotation. Other types of galaxies are different. The stars in elliptical
galaxies, for example, all orbit in different planes and directions. As a
result, these galaxies don't flatten out into disks.

_________________________________________________

Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com

"Scribe2b" wrote in message
...
these bodies apparently are disk-shaped by the same geometrical forces.
(?)
---snip---
this configuration seems almost universal.

really dumb question--- when and if it eventually returns back in upon
itself,
why would not the universe be similarly shaped?

TIA
jc

I've wondered the same thing myself... and you can take in the opposite
direction, too. On a molecular level, with electrons orbiting around
protons, it seems to me to follow a similar configuration(albeit spherical
rather than planar). It's almost like a fractal image, one can keep zooming
out and see similar patterns arranging themselves.
Just a thought...
-Jeremy-

On a molecular level, with electrons orbiting around
protons, it seems to me to follow a similar configuration(albeit spherical
rather than planar). It's almost like a fractal image, one can keep zooming
out and see similar patterns arranging themselves.

if 4 dimensions are necessary to describe the universe, why would not 4 apply
to atomic and subatomic realms as well?
jc

"SpaceBass" wrote in message
...

[...]

I've wondered the same thing myself... and you can take in the opposite
direction, too. On a molecular level, with electrons orbiting around
protons, it seems to me to follow a similar configuration(albeit spherical

Electrons do not orbit around the nucleon in any way even remotely similar
to a rotating disk.

Clear Skies,
Magnus

rather than planar). It's almost like a fractal image, one can keep
zooming
out and see similar patterns arranging themselves.
Just a thought...
-Jeremy-

I just don't think we can extrapolate anything, shape included,
from the quantum world (where I've read that there may be as
many as 10 or 11 dimensions) to the macroworld....with its 4 dimensions
(including time here).
They literally are, "2 completely different" worlds, with completely
different laws, and probably don't even know (or care) that 'the other'
world exists.
FWIW,
Tom W.



SpaceBass wrote:
"Scribe2b" wrote in message
...

these bodies apparently are disk-shaped by the same geometrical forces.

(?)
---snip---

this configuration seems almost universal.

really dumb question--- when and if it eventually returns back in upon

itself,

why would not the universe be similarly shaped?

TIA
jc


I've wondered the same thing myself... and you can take in the opposite
direction, too. On a molecular level, with electrons orbiting around
protons, it seems to me to follow a similar configuration(albeit spherical
rather than planar). It's almost like a fractal image, one can keep zooming
out and see similar patterns arranging themselves.
Just a thought...
-Jeremy-