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Random thought: Dark Matter & Dark Energy vs. Strong & Weak NuclearForces



 
 
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  #1  
Old December 6th 07, 07:29 AM posted to sci.physics,sci.astro
Yousuf Khan
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Posts: 594
Default Random thought: Dark Matter & Dark Energy vs. Strong & Weak NuclearForces

A random thought that just entered my mind a few days back was what if
Dark Energy and Dark Matter were really aspects respectively of the Weak
and Strong Nuclear Forces acting out on the cosmic scale? They kind of
act the same. The Dark Matter sort of acts like the Strong Force: holds
the outer edges of a galaxy from falling off, and holds the galaxies
together in clusters, but seems to mysteriously disappear the closer you
get to the centre of a galaxy. And then the Dark Energy sort of acts
like the Weak Force: it is limp-wristed against the Strong at close
distances, but go out far enough and it just dominates the Strong.

We've also heard those theories about what if our Universe were just an
atom within a larger Super-Universe (SuperVerse)? Then if it's merely an
atom (or maybe more like a molecule) of the Superverse, then why not
have the Superverse's version of the nuclear forces acting on it? That
way the galaxies are just the quarks. They form up into clusters, which
are just the atomic nucleii. The clusters come together to form a single
complex molecule, with the intergalactic gas being the electron cloud.

I'm sure it sounds pretty kooky, but has anyone else thought of
correlating the nuclear forces out at the cosmic level?

Yousuf Khan
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  #2  
Old December 6th 07, 07:34 AM posted to sci.physics,sci.astro
Eric Gisse[_2_]
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Posts: 52
Default Random thought: Dark Matter & Dark Energy vs. Strong & Weak Nuclear Forces

On Thu, 06 Dec 2007 01:29:17 -0500, Yousuf Khan
wrote:

A random thought that just entered my mind a few days back was what if
Dark Energy and Dark Matter were really aspects respectively of the Weak
and Strong Nuclear Forces acting out on the cosmic scale? They kind of
act the same. The Dark Matter sort of acts like the Strong Force: holds
the outer edges of a galaxy from falling off, and holds the galaxies
together in clusters, but seems to mysteriously disappear the closer you
get to the centre of a galaxy. And then the Dark Energy sort of acts
like the Weak Force: it is limp-wristed against the Strong at close
distances, but go out far enough and it just dominates the Strong.


Not even close.

The relative strengths are wrong, the scales involved exclude both,
the observed distribution of dark matter and energy excludes both, the
behavior of both dark matter and dark energy exclude both, and a
general ability to think should exclude the thought.

In fact, there are no similarities between the two sets whatsoever.


We've also heard those theories about what if our Universe were just an
atom within a larger Super-Universe (SuperVerse)? Then if it's merely an
atom (or maybe more like a molecule) of the Superverse, then why not
have the Superverse's version of the nuclear forces acting on it? That
way the galaxies are just the quarks. They form up into clusters, which
are just the atomic nucleii. The clusters come together to form a single
complex molecule, with the intergalactic gas being the electron cloud.

I'm sure it sounds pretty kooky, but has anyone else thought of
correlating the nuclear forces out at the cosmic level?


No, because both the electroweak and strong nuclear forces are
mediated by massive particles whose ranges are signiciantly smaller
than the size of everything macroscopic.



Yousuf Khan

  #3  
Old December 6th 07, 07:39 AM posted to sci.physics, sci.astro
BradGuth
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Posts: 21,544
Default Random thought: Dark Matter & Dark Energy vs. Strong & WeakNuclear Forces

On Dec 5, 10:29 pm, Yousuf Khan wrote:
A random thought that just entered my mind a few days back was what if
Dark Energy and Dark Matter were really aspects respectively of the Weak
and Strong Nuclear Forces acting out on the cosmic scale? They kind of
act the same. The Dark Matter sort of acts like the Strong Force: holds
the outer edges of a galaxy from falling off, and holds the galaxies
together in clusters, but seems to mysteriously disappear the closer you
get to the centre of a galaxy. And then the Dark Energy sort of acts
like the Weak Force: it is limp-wristed against the Strong at close
distances, but go out far enough and it just dominates the Strong.

We've also heard those theories about what if our Universe were just an
atom within a larger Super-Universe (SuperVerse)? Then if it's merely an
atom (or maybe more like a molecule) of the Superverse, then why not
have the Superverse's version of the nuclear forces acting on it? That
way the galaxies are just the quarks. They form up into clusters, which
are just the atomic nucleii. The clusters come together to form a single
complex molecule, with the intergalactic gas being the electron cloud.

I'm sure it sounds pretty kooky, but has anyone else thought of
correlating the nuclear forces out at the cosmic level?

Yousuf Khan


You could be right about that "SuperVerse", but then just think of
dark photons, as in perhaps 1e100 photons per atom.

Think of all those pesky black holes containing a core of antimatter
surrounded by all of those dark photons.
- Brad Guth
  #4  
Old December 6th 07, 07:45 AM posted to sci.physics, sci.astro, sci.physics.particle, sci.physics.relativity
Y.Porat[_2_]
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Posts: 180
Default Random thought: Dark Matter & Dark Energy vs. Strong & WeakNuclear Forces

On Dec 6, 8:29 am, Yousuf Khan wrote:
A random thought that just entered my mind a few days back was what if
Dark Energy and Dark Matter were really aspects respectively of the Weak
and Strong Nuclear Forces acting out on the cosmic scale? They kind of
act the same. The Dark Matter sort of acts like the Strong Force: holds
the outer edges of a galaxy from falling off, and holds the galaxies
together in clusters, but seems to mysteriously disappear the closer you
get to the centre of a galaxy. And then the Dark Energy sort of acts
like the Weak Force: it is limp-wristed against the Strong at close
distances, but go out far enough and it just dominates the Strong.

We've also heard those theories about what if our Universe were just an
atom within a larger Super-Universe (SuperVerse)? Then if it's merely an
atom (or maybe more like a molecule) of the Superverse, then why not
have the Superverse's version of the nuclear forces acting on it? That
way the galaxies are just the quarks. They form up into clusters, which
are just the atomic nucleii. The clusters come together to form a single
complex molecule, with the intergalactic gas being the electron cloud.

I'm sure it sounds pretty kooky, but has anyone else thought of
correlating the nuclear forces out at the cosmic level?

Yousuf Khan


-----------------
may be you are in the right direction but not deep enough!

dark matter seems to me **much finer and tinyer*
than week forces agents

my candidfate for it is

the 'Circlon'
look fo r the Circon idea

and just remember what old Catto saied:

'no mass ---no real physics '!!

ATB
Y.Porat
--------------------------
  #5  
Old December 6th 07, 09:00 AM posted to sci.physics, sci.astro, sci.physics.relativity,sci.physics.particle
Sue...
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 237
Default Random thought: Dark Matter & Dark Energy vs. Strong & WeakNuclear Forces

On Dec 6, 1:29 am, Yousuf Khan wrote:
A random thought that just entered my mind a few days back was what if
Dark Energy and Dark Matter were really aspects respectively of the Weak
and Strong Nuclear Forces acting out on the cosmic scale? They kind of
act the same. The Dark Matter sort of acts like the Strong Force: holds
the outer edges of a galaxy from falling off, and holds the galaxies
together in clusters, but seems to mysteriously disappear the closer you
get to the centre of a galaxy. And then the Dark Energy sort of acts
like the Weak Force: it is limp-wristed against the Strong at close
distances, but go out far enough and it just dominates the Strong.

We've also heard those theories about what if our Universe were just an
atom within a larger Super-Universe (SuperVerse)? Then if it's merely an
atom (or maybe more like a molecule) of the Superverse, then why not
have the Superverse's version of the nuclear forces acting on it? That
way the galaxies are just the quarks. They form up into clusters, which
are just the atomic nucleii. The clusters come together to form a single
complex molecule, with the intergalactic gas being the electron cloud.

I'm sure it sounds pretty kooky, but has anyone else thought of
correlating the nuclear forces out at the cosmic level?


It may be possible that molecular domains of illuminated gas can
"cohere" forming a region of space that is more ~conductive~
to gravitational force than less dense regions.

... interactions vanish for a particle of mass m is at kT ~ mc2,
in accordance with the results of Donoghue et al. The red-shifted
radiative image of local matter, through the magnifying glass of
distance, partakes in global coherent modes, in the emergence
of the local vacuum and waves the dynamic tapestry of space.
In so doing, it binds to matter beyond the range of its generally
assumed near field, inducing the 1/r gravitational potential.
Since it is the kinetic motions of matter that induce gravity,
the fall into a gravitational potential well reduces the fundamental
frequencies of free matter, slows clocks down and decreases
the mass-energy asymptotically.

The inductive coupling takes place in the near field í± c/r12
between coherently coupled individual dipoles, through their
red-shifted local antipodal image. This allows the exchanged
photons to be virtual and the coherent modes to genuinely
belong to the coupled oscillators while ensuring that the range
of gravity spans the Universe.
--C. P. Kouropoulos
http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/0107015

The probability of some valid analogy with subatomic
interactions is the business of folks that only
use clocks and rulers on their lucky days and
roll dice when they don't feel lucky.

cross posted to sci.physics.particle

Sue...



Yousuf Khan


  #6  
Old December 6th 07, 05:20 PM posted to sci.physics,sci.astro
Yousuf Khan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 594
Default Random thought: Dark Matter & Dark Energy vs. Strong & Weak NuclearForces

Eric Gisse wrote:
Not even close.

The relative strengths are wrong, the scales involved exclude both,
the observed distribution of dark matter and energy excludes both, the
behavior of both dark matter and dark energy exclude both, and a
general ability to think should exclude the thought.

In fact, there are no similarities between the two sets whatsoever.


Yes, that's just about what I would have expected from you. In this case
it literally requires outside the box thinking, meaning outside our own
Universe. That's exactly why I brought up the term Superverse: I chose
the word Superverse as opposed to the oft-used Multiverse because of
difference in hierarchal concepts. A Multiverse implies a coalition of
equal but independent (kind of democratic) universes barely interacting
with each other. The Superverse implies a similar thing, but with each
of the micro-universes being governed by the rules of a macro-universe
(almost dictatorial).

So yes, the Strong and Weak forces of *our own universe* cannot possibly
work on such massive scales. But what about the Strong and Weak forces
of the Superverse? In the Superverse, our own Universe may be barely
just over the Superverse's Planck scale. And about relative strengths of
the nuclear forces vs. DM/DE, perhaps the difference of scales weaken
those forces in the Superverse?

No, because both the electroweak and strong nuclear forces are
mediated by massive particles whose ranges are signiciantly smaller
than the size of everything macroscopic.



And as we all know, there's no possible way that "dark mysterious
particles with large mass" could have any effect on the large scale
structures of the Universe, right? :-)

This may bring up other interesting questions. What if all of the atoms
or molecules of our own Universe are really just their own
micro-universes? Micro-universes with their own little complex
structures like clusters, galaxies, stars, etc. floating around inside
them? Therefore that would make our Universe, their Superverse. And
perhaps what we interpret as a Quantum scale, is really just a
Relativistic scale for these micro-universes? So all of the probablistic
quantum-scale actions we see at our own scale, manifest themselves as
spacetime warpages within their own scale. We're just too big to detect
those warpages directly, so we assign them a Quantum Mechanical
statistical explanation (i.e. we have to average them out, since we
can't measure them directly).

Yousuf Khan
  #7  
Old December 6th 07, 05:21 PM posted to sci.physics,sci.astro
Yousuf Khan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 594
Default Random thought: Dark Matter & Dark Energy vs. Strong & WeakNuclear Forces

BradGuth wrote:
You could be right about that "SuperVerse", but then just think of
dark photons, as in perhaps 1e100 photons per atom.

Think of all those pesky black holes containing a core of antimatter
surrounded by all of those dark photons.
- Brad Guth


I have no idea what you're talking about, care to explain?
  #8  
Old December 6th 07, 05:24 PM posted to sci.physics,sci.astro
Yousuf Khan
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Posts: 594
Default Random thought: Dark Matter & Dark Energy vs. Strong & Weak NuclearForces

Sam Wormley wrote:
If you understand the nuclear forces... you would understand
that they not infinite forces at the temperature experienced
in the universe today.


See my reply to Eric Gisse. I'm not saying it is our own Universe's
nuclear forces that are acting on us, but rather the Superverse's
nuclear forces.

Yousuf Khan
  #9  
Old December 6th 07, 06:32 PM posted to sci.physics,sci.astro
Eric Gisse[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 52
Default Random thought: Dark Matter & Dark Energy vs. Strong & Weak Nuclear Forces

On Thu, 06 Dec 2007 11:20:46 -0500, Yousuf Khan
wrote:

[...]

When you can phrase your mumbo jumbo in the form of quantitative
predictions, let us know.

  #10  
Old December 7th 07, 12:16 AM posted to sci.physics,sci.astro,sci.physics.particle,sci.physics.relativity
Daniel Pitts
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1
Default Random thought: Dark Matter & Dark Energy vs. Strong & WeakNuclear Forces

Y.Porat wrote:
On Dec 6, 8:29 am, Yousuf Khan wrote:
A random thought that just entered my mind a few days back was what if
Dark Energy and Dark Matter were really aspects respectively of the Weak
and Strong Nuclear Forces acting out on the cosmic scale? They kind of
act the same. The Dark Matter sort of acts like the Strong Force: holds
the outer edges of a galaxy from falling off, and holds the galaxies
together in clusters, but seems to mysteriously disappear the closer you
get to the centre of a galaxy. And then the Dark Energy sort of acts
like the Weak Force: it is limp-wristed against the Strong at close
distances, but go out far enough and it just dominates the Strong.

We've also heard those theories about what if our Universe were just an
atom within a larger Super-Universe (SuperVerse)? Then if it's merely an
atom (or maybe more like a molecule) of the Superverse, then why not
have the Superverse's version of the nuclear forces acting on it? That
way the galaxies are just the quarks. They form up into clusters, which
are just the atomic nucleii. The clusters come together to form a single
complex molecule, with the intergalactic gas being the electron cloud.

I'm sure it sounds pretty kooky, but has anyone else thought of
correlating the nuclear forces out at the cosmic level?

Yousuf Khan


-----------------
may be you are in the right direction but not deep enough!

dark matter seems to me **much finer and tinyer*
than week forces agents

my candidfate for it is

the 'Circlon'
look fo r the Circon idea

and just remember what old Catto saied:

'no mass ---no real physics '!!

ATB
Y.Porat
--------------------------

My thoughts along this idea were more that we might misunderstand
gravity. We might understand its influence on a medium-scale, but what
prevents it from being repulsive a large scales?

If you think in current terms, according to relativity, a gravity well
curves space and looks something like:
_______ ________
\/

But what if it looks more like:
____ ____
..-^ \/ ^-.

This could lead to the effect of Dark Energy, close things fall toward
the well, far things fall away from the well.
--
Daniel Pitts' Tech Blog: http://virtualinfinity.net/wordpress/
 




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