Energy that's between us and our moon

"The Ghost In The Machine" wrote in
message

Moon mass (M_m): 7.348 * 10^22 kg
Mean moon velocity: 1.022 * 10^3 m/s
Orbital escape velocity: 1.445 * 10^3 m/s
Delta velocity (v_d): 4.233 * 10^2 m/s
Moon orbital energy: 3.837 * 10^28 J
Chemical v_e: 3 * 10^3 m/s
Final mass after burn: M_f = M_m/exp(v_d/v_e) = 6.381 * 10^22
Required fuel: 9.670 * 10^21 kg

KE of 100% efficieny by way of 2000 kg U238 = 89.5e33 joules

Do we need more?
-
Brad Guth



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"The Ghost In The Machine" wrote in
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What if instead of wasting a perfectly good 2000 kg cache of U238, we
used Sedna's arriving worth of KE, as having a direct impact at just the
right timing and angle?

Say if Sedna's icy mass of 5e21 kg were arriving at the final impact
velocity of 2 km/s = 1e28 x eff joules

Even at 10% impact efficiency, that's 1e27 joules, although a
rear-ender/(sucker punch) at 1 km/sec would become a much softer 2.5e26
joules, that by rights should still accomplish a little something
impressive.
-
Brad Guth


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"The Ghost In The Machine" wrote in
message

2X moon L2 = 129,400 km

129,400 / 384,400 = .33663

1.33663 x 1.023 km/s = 1.367 km/s

2X L2 orbital Earth velocity = 1.367 km/s (in relation to Earth)

2X L2 orbital moon velocity = 344.421 m/s (in relation to the moon)

Centrifugal force: F=MV2/r
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/cf.html#cf

If given the 2X L2 orbital mass = 1e12 kg (including whatever's tether)

Moon 2X L2 Fc: F=MV2/r = 9.167374e8 N = 93,481 tonnes

Earth/moon 2X L2 Fc: F=MV2/r = 3.637e9 N = 370,871 tonnes

Roughly how long will it take for getting rid of our moon (relocated to
Earth L1)?
-
Brad Guth


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In sci.environment, Brad Guth

wrote
on Mon, 5 Feb 2007 06:14:33 +0000 (UTC)
lgate.org:
"The Ghost In The Machine" wrote in
message

Terrific feedback. Now, try a whole lot harder, and think bigger as
though the very salvation of your sorry butt was on the line.

Relocating lunar mass via tether out past the moon's L2 point of no
return, say going way out there for 2X L2, and say we/robotics somehow
manage to place 1e9 tonnes way out there on the tippy end of that nifty
2X L2 tether for starters.

How much applied exit force is that?

Tether? Erm...where are the attachment points of
this tether? If one attaches Earth and moon, and if
the tether's strong enough it will simply wrap around
the Earth, yanking at the Moon. This might work if it's
stretchy enough, accelerating the moon to about 40,000
km/day or 463 m/s -- which isn't quite its orbital speed
so I'd have to do some crunching here; the 1000 m/s is
going tangential to the orbit (roughly speaking) but the
463 m/s will pull inward. The best one can hope for is
an increase to 1101 m/s, which will just make the orbit
more elliptical.

If we go with your suggestion, the L2 point is about 60000
km above the far side of the Moon (the Wikipedia gives
61500 but I suspect they're using mass centers). If I
understand you correctly you want to move a gigatonne mass
(10^12 kg) 183000 km (1.83 * 10^7 m) from the far side,
and attach it to the Moon's surface with a sufficiently
strong tether.

You are attempting to move a boulder with a flea. The Moon's
mass is 7.3477 * 10^22 kg -- about 7.3477 * 10^10 times bigger.

You might try moving the tether further out, though I really don't see
how this is going to work anyway. Were the tether a very rigid lever
and L2 the fulcrum point, you'd want to have your mass 4.41 * 10^20 m
out -- which is 46,600 light years.

And nothing's that rigid.


Did you bother to ask lord William Mook, as to how much tonnage of
U238/U235 we're talking about?

No, sorry; was I supposed to?

-
Brad Guth





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#191,
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Windows just messes with one's head.

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In sci.environment, Brad Guth

wrote
on Mon, 5 Feb 2007 07:12:58 +0000 (UTC)
lgate.org:
"The Ghost In The Machine" wrote in
message

What if instead of wasting a perfectly good 2000 kg cache of U238, we
used Sedna's arriving worth of KE, as having a direct impact at just the
right timing and angle?

Say if Sedna's icy mass of 5e21 kg were arriving at the final impact
velocity of 2 km/s = 1e28 x eff joules

Wimp. :-)

The mass of Sedna is estimated to be from 1.7 * 10^21 kg to
6.1 * 10^21 kg -- less than 1/10th the size of Luna at the
very most. Hitting the moon with such a mass would be
akin to moving a basketball with a tennis ball. It won't
move all that much.

If you're going to knock the Moon out of orbit you'll
need a minimum of 5 km/s, and you may need 30 km/s.
Fortunately, both are easily achievable by moving Sedna
retrograde; the result would knock Luna into an orbit
crossing Earth's, although probably at a rather oblique
angle.


Even at 10% impact efficiency, that's 1e27 joules, although a
rear-ender/(sucker punch) at 1 km/sec would become a much softer 2.5e26
joules, that by rights should still accomplish a little something
impressive.

It'll leave an impression all right. :-)

-
Brad Guth




--
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"Brad Guth" wrote in message
news:3b4798c18ba5f7c68ea8bab83c67fd60.49644@mygate .mailgate.org

What can we move into Earth's L1 that'll give us the most interactive
control of shade, and still provide us with nifty considerations that
are much better than we currently have to work with?

The previous pun of a notion that's on behalf of relocating Sedna to
Earth's L1 might eventually become one of our best solutions for
accomplishing a solar shade that's a little big but otherwise just about
the right size of solar shade. However, as for my going along with John
Schilling, I'd have to agree that a relocation of Sedna to Earth's L1 is
a stretch, not to mention a serious long term alternative that sucks at
being at least a good century at best away from benefiting our GW
situation, that's only going to get worse per year after year no matters
what. Or, don't you folks fully appreciate where the vast majority of
our ice age thawing and ongoing GW energy is actually coming from?

Did by chance any of you folks even once bother to ask our resident
lord/wizard William Mook, as to exactly how much tonnage of U238/U235
we're talking about, as per relocating our very own moon, to Earth's L1?

Or, what if instead of wasting a perfectly good 2000 kg cache of U238
that we're likely going to need for WW-III, we simply utilized Sedna's
arriving worth of KE, as for having a direct impact at just the right
timing and angle?

Say if Sedna's icy mass of 5e21 kg were orchestrated on behalf of
arriving at the final moon impact velocity of 2 km/s = 1e28 x eff joules

Even if that were at 10% KE impact efficiency, that's offering 1e27
joules, although a rear-ender/(sucker punch) at 1 km/sec would become a
much softer 2.5e26 joules, that by rights should still accomplish a
little something impressive.
-

Alternative if not a better local Plan-B: Relocate our moon
Relocating lunar mass via L2 tether, far out past the moon's L2 point of
no return. Say going way out there for using this 2X L2, and say
we/robotics somehow manage to place 1e9 tonnes out there on the tippy
end of that nifty 2X L2 tethered distance away from the moon's CG, a
placement distance of roughly 129,400 km for starters seems perfectly
doable.

How much applied exit or delta-v force is that going to provide?

Here's the best preliminary math that seems about right.

2X moon L2 = 129,400 km

129,400 / 384,400 = .33663

Orbital velocity: 1.33663 x 1.023 km/s = 1.367 km/s

2X L2 orbital Earth velocity = 1.367 km/s (in relation to Earth)

2X L2 orbital moon velocity = 344.421 m/s (in relation to the moon)

Centrifugal force: F=MV2/r
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/cf.html#cf

If we're given the 2X L2 orbital mass of 1e12 kg (including whatever's
tether)

Moon's 2X L2 Fc: F=MV2/r = 9.167374e8 N = 93,481 tonnes

Earth/moon 2X L2 Fc: F=MV2/r = 3.637e9 N = 370,871 tonnes

That's a combined total of 464,353 tonnes of centrifugal applied force
that's worthy of accomplishing something, especially when applied over
the time span of perhaps a few years, of which I don't believe it'll
actually take all that long, or even nearly the 1e12 kg placement of
mass at the moon's 2X L2.

Roughly/swag speaking; using this moon L2 package of 1e12 kg in
tethered mass acting as a physical tug upon getting that nasty moon
further away from Earth, how long will it take for that task of getting
rid of our moon (relocated to Earth L1 that is)?

Seems having our moon relocated to Earth's L1 is actually a
multi-tasking win-win for all sorts of future science, and otherwise of
direct benefit to our environment, and of most everything else I can
think of seems better off. As for the naysay or whatever negatives, at
least thus far I have a list of zilch to offer because, it even benefits
my LSE-CM/ISS that can still deploy its tether dipole element to within
4r of Earth, and there's lots more to consider if you still have that
yaysay open mindset to work with.
-
Brad Guth


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"Brad Guth" wrote in message
news:0a19c808fbac55756b7a296597e1c869.49644@mygate .mailgate.org

Relocating our moon represents another win-win for the old gipper, and
it's not even hocus-pocus or having to use smoke and mirrors. The
process of relocating our moon can start off extremely slow and build up
to whatever the task requires. This is about eventually shading mother
Earth and fixing all sorts of pesky mascon related problems at the same
time. I'm thinking the amount of this shade via L1 moon can be somewhat
adjusted by the fact that this massive item should be a touch lagging
behind, rather than dead on target, whereas L4/L5 tethers could make it
into an entirely interactive shade on demand (sort of speak).

Our Next Space Station = Earth L1
Master CM(counter mass) of 7.35e22 kg worth, efficiently situated at
Earth L1.

Perhaps my previous topics or sub-topics of having imposed certain weird
notions and those pesky question(s), such as about our environment
having gone entirely naked w/o moon was asking a bit too much,
especially since Earth would eventually thereafter get extra cold, as
without sufficient tidal forces to motivate our molten core's thermal
interior of transferring 40 or 70 some odd TJ that might even further
degrade our failing magnetosphere, plus vast oceans of roughly 40,000 ~
60,000 TJ of solar thermal energy wouldn't migrate about as to nearly
the present extent, whereas such we'd likely be unavoidably icing up
really good, while keeping sufficienly toasty and thus frost and ice
free within the tropics of Cancer/Capricorn, plus a few aquatic areas
getting somewhat extra algae bloom and/or dead-zone stinky at the same
time, all because of those reduced tidal forced actions taking place.

Not to feer, as there would still be a sol+moon forced tide, just not
nearly as strong, and accommodating only one such composite tide per
day.

However, as a perfectly viable compromise to Earth entirely w/o moon;
Have I got a nifty L1 shade for accommodating your next ISS and
otherwise for the best ever salvation of Earth's environment:

http://mygate.mailgate.org/mynews/sc...=smart&p=1/360

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.s...25b2f50bea63b9
In addition to this method of establishing a great deal of shade
(perhaps a touch more than necessary), we'd also have established the
absolute ideal TRACE, ACE and SOHO outpost or mother platform, as well
as keeping the Chinese or possibly Russian LSE-CM/ISS as 100% viable to
boot (actually far better yet because of the moon's L1 (MEL1/facing
Earth) becoming so nicely shaded and obviously the moon becomes near
zelch worth of being reactive to the solar energy that passing by, so
much so improved that even Bigalow's POOFs could be safely utilized most
anywhere along the tethers).

I'm asking; What's so terribly wrong, or even all that technically
insurmountable with my notions of relocating our very own cosmic morgue
of a mascon, as our nasty old salty and global warming moon is relocated
all the way out to Earth L1?

Utilizing the tethered mass at 2X L2 seems like a perfectly good
alternative to having applied those millions of spendy rockets (that we
obviously don't have nor could we actually apply to such a daunting
task) or via whatever nuclear produced delta-v, especially since most
every required tonne and of the L2 tether itself would be extracted from
the moon.

This being where the truly smart folks get to shine like never before.
Where's all of your warm and fuzzy Usenet yaysay and of whatever
wizardly applied expertise of eye popping candy, and otherwise on behalf
of knocking our socks off, especially when our badly failing environment
and extremely frail DNA needs such efforts the most?

What's actually all that negative or otherwise naysay about relocating
our moon, for obtaining such absolute spare loads of ice age rebuilding
shade, and of so much more to come?

Since we're still into losing our DNA/RNA protective magnetosphere at
the ongoing demise of 0.05%/year, as such, what other long-term options
for protecting Earth's atmosphere and of our sequestered butts on this
badly polluted surface do we have?
-
Brad Guth


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"Brad Guth" wrote in message
news:ae7ae0ea345f1567240de5b95ea9eaaa.49644@mygate .mailgate.org

Relocating lunar mass via L2 deployed tether, far out past the moon's L2
point of no return seems like the perfectly good way to go. Say for the
effort of going way out there using this 2X L2, and to say we/robotics
somehow manage to place 1e9 tonnes on the tippy end of that nifty 2X L2
tethered distance away from the moon's CG, a remote placement distance
of roughly 129,400 km, at least for starters seems a touch daunting but
otherwise perfectly doable.

How much applied exit or delta-v force is that going to provide?

Here's the best preliminary math that seems about right.

2X moon L2 = 129,400 km

129,400 / 384,400 = .33663

Orbital velocity: 1.33663 x 1.023 km/s = 1.367 km/s

2X L2 orbital Earth velocity = 1.367 km/s (in relation to Earth)

2X L2 orbital moon velocity = 344.421 m/s (in relation to the moon)

Centripetal/Centrifugal force: Fc=MV2/r
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/cf.html#cf

If we're given the 2X L2 orbital mass of 1e12 kg (including whatever's
tether)

Moon's 2X L2: Fc=MV2/r = 9.167374e8 N = 93,481 tonnes

Earth/moon 2X L2: Fc=MV2/r = 3.637e9 N = 370,871 tonnes

That's either 93,481 applied tonnes of force or the combined total of
464,353 tonnes of centrifugal applied force that's worthy of
accomplishing something, especially when applied over the time span of
perhaps a few years, of which I don't believe it'll actually take all
that long, or even nearly the 1e12 kg placement of mass at the moon's 2X
L2.

Roughly/swag speaking; using this moon L2 package of 1e12 kg in
tethered mass acting as a physical CM/tug upon getting that nasty moon
further away from Earth, how long will it take for that process of
getting rid of our moon (ideally relocated to Earth L1 that is)?

Seems having our moon relocated to Earth's L1 is actually a
multi-tasking and do-everything sort of win-win for accomplishing all
sorts of future science and space exploration, and otherwise of direct
primary benefit to our environment, and of most everything else I can
think of seems better off. As for the naysay or whatever negatives, at
least thus far I have a list of zilch to offer because, it even benefits
my LSE-CM/ISS that can still deploy its tether dipole element to within
4r of Earth, and there's lots more to consider if you still have that
yaysay open mindset to work with.
-
Brad Guth


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"Brad Guth" wrote in message
news:3b4798c18ba5f7c68ea8bab83c67fd60.49644@mygate .mailgate.org

We know there's a great deal of clean and essentially renewable raw
energy that's between Earth and our trusty moon. However, how much
energy is simply too much for our badly failing environment to
withstand.

Instead of our being continually global warmed to death, and otherwise
gettiing a little extra TBI via moon gamma and hard-X-rays. I was just
pondering outside the box, as to how much thick ice and compacted snow
can Earth stand to gain by way of moving our moon to Earth L1?

Are we talking of having sufficient Cuban ice and snow for hosting our
future world winter Olympic games, except well into August?

How about instead of seemingly wasting our best talents and expertise
upon whatever make-do or half assed terrestrial notions in order to save
thy global warming butt, thereby losing precious time and scant energy
resources upon terraforming our moon as is, which is actually
technically doable (especially from the LSE-CM/ISS perspective of what
China could easily accomplish on our behalf), whereas we could simply
relocate that big old sucker to Earth L1, and thereby call our global
warming fiasco to a freaking halt once and for all, along with having
created shade to burn (sort of speak).

We'd obviously give up having such a downright reactive sort of a pesky
mascon of a moon that's a little too massive and orbiting too darn close
for our own damn good, whereas instead we'd have created for ourselves a
rather nifty planetoid that's efficiently cruising within Earth's L1,
that is unless we decide otherwise.

This 7.35e22 kg planetoid of 3476 km diameter would also help block or
fend off a few of those nasty halo CMEs that are getting more frequent
and more lethal as our ongoing demise of our magnetosphere continues to
fail us and that of our frail DNA at -0.05%/year.

Best of all, our good old once upon a time icy proto-moon, of ever since
the last ice age having shared such warm and fuzzy amounts of global
warming via tidal forced energy, would still be within easy range of our
fly-by-rocket access that'll soon enough become a proven technology, as
well as everything mission related made a whole lot safer for walking on
that full earthshine illuminated deck of what's physically chuck full of
dark and nasty cosmic and a few otherwise invaluable solar substances
(such as He3), though still a touch salty and otherwise extremely
electrostatic dusty (tens of meters deep in places), and yet the
LSE-CM/ISS tether dipole element could still be allowed to reach if need
be to within 4r of Earth. The 256e6 tonne and 1e9 m3 CM/ISS as our
do-everything gateway abode/depot itself is certainly much better off,
and of the anchor tethers would have become POOF suitable as for
accommodating whomever is seriously rich and hasn't all that much
quality time to live anyway.
-
Brad Guth


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"The Ghost In The Machine" wrote in
message

Tether? Erm...where are the attachment points of
this tether?

Tethers, as in many such basalt composite tough fiber tethers made from
the moon itself, rather easily attached deep into whatever and wherever
you'd like.

The best one can hope for is
an increase to 1101 m/s, which will just make the orbit
more elliptical.

Sounds great, although it's already "elliptical" because of the sun,
perhaps a little more so at times because of Jupiter, and once every 19
months as measurably influenced by Venus.


If we go with your suggestion, the L2 point is about 60000
km above the far side of the Moon (the Wikipedia gives
61500 but I suspect they're using mass centers). If I
understand you correctly you want to move a gigatonne mass
(10^12 kg) 183000 km (1.83 * 10^7 m) from the far side,
and attach it to the Moon's surface with a sufficiently
strong tether.

I'd found a somewhat longer moon L2 of 64,700 km, thus a 2XL2 = 129,400
km, but instead by utilizing your further reach of 183,000 km should
obviously more than accomplish the pull like hell trick.


You are attempting to move a boulder with a flea. The Moon's
mass is 7.3477 * 10^22 kg -- about 7.3477 * 10^10 times bigger.

Flea by flea, or rather perhaps as much as tonne by tonne of tether
robotic pod by pod payloads and we'd eventually get there, with 1e12 kg
efficiently sitting but otherwise still attached at 2XL2, or possibly as
you've suggested a little further out.

Obviously you can't fully read, nor hardly think outside the box. Is
that because of old age, or is it something faith-based that's screwing
up the works?


You might try moving the tether further out, though I really don't see
how this is going to work anyway. Were the tether a very rigid lever
and L2 the fulcrum point, you'd want to have your mass 4.41 * 10^20 m
out -- which is 46,600 light years.

Silly boy, arnt you. What's your big ass hurry? I was thinking of this
taking a century if need be. I's called job security.


Did you bother to ask lord William Mook, as to how much tonnage of
U238/U235 we're talking about?

No, sorry; was I supposed to?

Most certainly, why the hell not? After all, he's yet another Usenet
wizard that knows all there is to know, and then some.
-
Brad Guth


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