ATKs Liberty Rocket - a joke??

I read some strange thing today:

http://www.spaceflightnow.com/news/n1102/08liberty/
Liberty rocket emerges from shadow of defunct Ares 1
BY STEPHEN CLARK, SPACEFLIGHT NOW, Posted: February 8, 2011

The Liberty rocket could deliver 44,500 pounds to the International
Space Station's orbit, enough capacity to lift any crew vehicle in
development, according to Kent Rominger, ATK's vice president of
advanced programs.
...
The Liberty rocket would stack the cryogenic core stage of Europe's
proven Ariane 5 launcher atop a solid-fueled motor developed for the
Ares rocket. The result is a vehicle closely resembling the Ares 1,
the crew launch vehicle cancelled by the U.S. government in 2010.

The drawing and text left out any vibration damper for the upper stage
(its not designed to survive a 5 segment SRB vibration level) and the
retro speration rockets to avoid recontact like in the Ares-1X test flight.
That would cost at least 2 tons. So maybe 20 tons payload final at best,
18 tons worst.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariane_5

The Ariane 5 ES-ATV (Evolution Storable) is used to launch the
Automated Transfer Vehicle (ATV) into a 260 km circular low Earth
orbit inclined at 51.6°. ... It is estimated that the Ariane 5 ES-ATV
can put up to 21,000 kg (46,000 lb) in LEO. The first such launch
occurred at 04:03 GMT on 9 March 2008.

Some error in weight? No:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automated_Transfer_Vehicle

Each ATV weighs 20.7 tonnes at launch and has a cargo capacity
of 8 tonnes.


So ATK wants 200 Millions to develop a slightly downsized Ariane 5?



## CrossPoint v3.12d R ##

In article , n-
neckar.de says...

I read some strange thing today:

http://www.spaceflightnow.com/news/n1102/08liberty/
Liberty rocket emerges from shadow of defunct Ares 1
BY STEPHEN CLARK, SPACEFLIGHT NOW, Posted: February 8, 2011

The Liberty rocket could deliver 44,500 pounds to the International
Space Station's orbit, enough capacity to lift any crew vehicle in
development, according to Kent Rominger, ATK's vice president of
advanced programs.
...
The Liberty rocket would stack the cryogenic core stage of Europe's
proven Ariane 5 launcher atop a solid-fueled motor developed for the
Ares rocket. The result is a vehicle closely resembling the Ares 1,
the crew launch vehicle cancelled by the U.S. government in 2010.

The drawing and text left out any vibration damper for the upper stage
(its not designed to survive a 5 segment SRB vibration level) and the
retro speration rockets to avoid recontact like in the Ares-1X test flight.
That would cost at least 2 tons. So maybe 20 tons payload final at best,
18 tons worst.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariane_5

The Ariane 5 ES-ATV (Evolution Storable) is used to launch the
Automated Transfer Vehicle (ATV) into a 260 km circular low Earth
orbit inclined at 51.6°. ... It is estimated that the Ariane 5 ES-ATV
can put up to 21,000 kg (46,000 lb) in LEO. The first such launch
occurred at 04:03 GMT on 9 March 2008.

Some error in weight? No:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automated_Transfer_Vehicle

Each ATV weighs 20.7 tonnes at launch and has a cargo capacity
of 8 tonnes.


So ATK wants 200 Millions to develop a slightly downsized Ariane 5?

To me this shows just how desperate ATK has become. The nice thing
about Ariane 5 is that the liquid fueled first stage (core) engine is
started before the solids are lit (same as the shuttle). ATK's Liberty
Rocket needs to air start that same engine. Is it even possible to air
start the Vulcain engine?

ATK's original proposal for a crew launch vehicle was to be a four
segment solid rocket booster topped by an SSME powered upper stage. But
the air started SSME was eventually dropped and replaced with the J2-X
engine, requiring that the first stage be stretched to a five segment
solid rocket booster.

We've been down this road before. Hopefully ATK won't be successful
with this second round of bait and switch.

Jeff
--
" Solids are a branch of fireworks, not rocketry. :-) :-) ", Henry
Spencer 1/28/2011

On Feb 9, 4:01*pm, Jeff Findley wrote:
In article , -
neckar.de says...







I read some strange thing today:

http://www.spaceflightnow.com/news/n1102/08liberty/
Liberty rocket emerges from shadow of defunct Ares 1
BY STEPHEN CLARK, SPACEFLIGHT NOW, Posted: February 8, 2011

* The Liberty rocket could deliver 44,500 pounds to the International
* Space Station's orbit, enough capacity to lift any crew vehicle in
* development, according to Kent Rominger, ATK's vice president of
* advanced programs.
* ...
* The Liberty rocket would stack the cryogenic core stage of Europe's
* proven Ariane 5 launcher atop a solid-fueled motor developed for the
* Ares rocket. The result is a vehicle closely resembling the Ares 1,
* the crew launch vehicle cancelled by the U.S. government in 2010.

The drawing and text left out any vibration damper for the upper stage
(its not designed to survive a 5 segment SRB vibration level) *and the
retro speration rockets to avoid recontact like in the Ares-1X test flight.
That would cost at least 2 tons. So maybe 20 tons payload final at best,
18 tons worst.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariane_5

* The Ariane 5 ES-ATV (Evolution Storable) is used to launch the
* Automated Transfer Vehicle (ATV) into a 260 km circular low Earth
* orbit inclined at 51.6°. ... It is estimated that the Ariane 5 ES-ATV
* can put up to 21,000 kg (46,000 lb) in LEO. The first such launch
* occurred at 04:03 GMT on 9 March 2008.

Some error in weight? No:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automated_Transfer_Vehicle

* Each ATV weighs 20.7 tonnes at launch and has a cargo capacity
* of 8 tonnes.

So ATK wants 200 Millions to develop a slightly downsized Ariane 5?

To me this shows just how desperate ATK has become. *The nice thing
about Ariane 5 is that the liquid fueled first stage (core) engine is
started before the solids are lit (same as the shuttle). *ATK's Liberty
Rocket needs to air start that same engine. *Is it even possible to air
start the Vulcain engine? *

ATK's original proposal for a crew launch vehicle was to be a four
segment solid rocket booster topped by an SSME powered upper stage. *But
the air started SSME was eventually dropped and replaced with the J2-X
engine, requiring that the first stage be stretched to a five segment
solid rocket booster.

We've been down this road before. *Hopefully ATK won't be successful
with this second round of bait and switch.

Jeff
--
" Solids are a branch of fireworks, not rocketry. :-) :-) ", Henry
Spencer 1/28/2011- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Better to give ATK continued nasa customer. a shuttle flight or 2 a
year and shuttle C.

all using the existing infrastructure and that pork piggie will squeal
with fiancial pleasure/.

meanwhile the US has a heavy lifter, continued downmass capacity and
continued man in space capacity, stretch out the remaining flights as
much as possible....

michold will squeal with $ too.

congress will be happy their campaign contribuitors content

In article , n-
neckar.de says...

I read some strange thing today:

http://www.spaceflightnow.com/news/n1102/08liberty/
Liberty rocket emerges from shadow of defunct Ares 1
BY STEPHEN CLARK, SPACEFLIGHT NOW, Posted: February 8, 2011

The Liberty rocket could deliver 44,500 pounds to the International
Space Station's orbit, enough capacity to lift any crew vehicle in
development, according to Kent Rominger, ATK's vice president of
advanced programs.
...
The Liberty rocket would stack the cryogenic core stage of Europe's
proven Ariane 5 launcher atop a solid-fueled motor developed for the
Ares rocket. The result is a vehicle closely resembling the Ares 1,
the crew launch vehicle cancelled by the U.S. government in 2010.

The drawing and text left out any vibration damper for the upper stage
(its not designed to survive a 5 segment SRB vibration level) and the
retro speration rockets to avoid recontact like in the Ares-1X test
flight. That would cost at least 2 tons. So maybe 20 tons payload final at
best, 18 tons worst.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariane_5

The Ariane 5 ES-ATV (Evolution Storable) is used to launch the
Automated Transfer Vehicle (ATV) into a 260 km circular low Earth
orbit inclined at 51.6°. ... It is estimated that the Ariane 5 ES-ATV
can put up to 21,000 kg (46,000 lb) in LEO. The first such launch
occurred at 04:03 GMT on 9 March 2008.

Some error in weight? No:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automated_Transfer_Vehicle

Each ATV weighs 20.7 tonnes at launch and has a cargo capacity
of 8 tonnes.


So ATK wants 200 Millions to develop a slightly downsized Ariane 5?

To me this shows just how desperate ATK has become. The nice thing
about Ariane 5 is that the liquid fueled first stage (core) engine is
started before the solids are lit (same as the shuttle). ATK's Liberty
Rocket needs to air start that same engine. Is it even possible to air
start the Vulcain engine?

No, not the present version. It has to be modified. In connection
with this big SRB there are some special problems. To avoid heavy
seperation rockets one could start the Vulcain still connected with
the SRB first stage. You only need some grider structure between the
stages. But then the haevy trust oscillations near SRB burnout will
effect the Vulcain in its most critcal sequence. You cant damp it
out much, it calls very loud for Pogo. So no easy development.


ATK's original proposal for a crew launch vehicle was to be a four
segment solid rocket booster topped by an SSME powered upper stage. But
the air started SSME was eventually dropped and replaced with the J2-X
engine, requiring that the first stage be stretched to a five segment
solid rocket booster.

We've been down this road before. Hopefully ATK won't be successful
with this second round of bait and switch.

The strange thing is, ATK has smaller SRBs too and could copy the
Ariane 5. That would be cheaper, less development and even with
more payload performance. This Liberty is such a screwed idea it
even tops Ares-1.


Jeff
--
" Solids are a branch of fireworks, not rocketry. :-) :-) ", Henry
Spencer 1/28/2011


## CrossPoint v3.12d R ##

Oh boy, ALV-X2! Twice as good as ALV-X1?
so the problem is what is the limit of 2x when x 0?

Has anyone considered that the payload weight might be somewhat
reduced compared to the Ares I because the Ariane 5 core stage is made
of conventional aluminium alloy instead of aluminium-lithium as the
original concept's upper stage was? I've also noticed that the
concepts put forth have all shown a pusher launch escape system, which
makes me wonder if that is considered in the payload capacity, and I'm
also curious if they are being conservative with their performance
estimates. It simply cannot be a performance difference between a
Vulcain and a J2X engine.
-Mike

On Feb 9, 6:07*am, wrote:
I read some strange thing today:

http://www.spaceflightnow.com/news/n1102/08liberty/
Liberty rocket emerges from shadow of defunct Ares 1
BY STEPHEN CLARK, SPACEFLIGHT NOW, Posted: February 8, 2011

* The Liberty rocket could deliver 44,500 pounds to the International
* Space Station's orbit, enough capacity to lift any crew vehicle in
* development, according to Kent Rominger, ATK's vice president of
* advanced programs.
* ...
* The Liberty rocket would stack the cryogenic core stage of Europe's
* proven Ariane 5 launcher atop a solid-fueled motor developed for the
* Ares rocket. The result is a vehicle closely resembling the Ares 1,
* the crew launch vehicle cancelled by the U.S. government in 2010.

The drawing and text left out any vibration damper for the upper stage
(its not designed to survive a 5 segment SRB vibration level) *and the
retro speration rockets to avoid recontact like in the Ares-1X test flight.

On 10 Feb 2011 16:05:00 +0200, wrote:



The strange thing is, ATK has smaller SRBs too and could copy the
Ariane 5. That would be cheaper, less development and even with
more payload performance. This Liberty is such a screwed idea it
even tops Ares-1.

And that's saying a lot!