OT- the state of the union

Rand Simberg wrote:

OK, you may now come with some strictly technical definition of
"brainwashing" which shows that it is a totally different thing. Sorry
for using the wrong word, then.



Your definition of it is so broad that it would apply to almost all
media interactions with society, which renders it useless for its more
specific meaning, which is to deliberately and in a focused way
program someone into having specific, false beliefs, in the hopes
they'll act on them in some predetermined way.


The problem here is "false beliefs" this seems to assume that their are
"true beliefs" that they would have without this influence on them.
Beliefs are by their very nature subject to one's interpretation of
events based on past personal experience, and what sort of context you
put those events in due to your society's beliefs.

Pat

h (Rand Simberg) wrote:

I missed the part where you established that all 6+ million Muslims in
France -- or any significant fraction of them -- are "jihadis," and
that a quarrel over headscarves in school is a demand to convert or
dire.

That's because I never made such a claim.

Monte (talking about Muslim immigrants in France AS A GROUP) wonders
if it's their swarthiness (i.e. "race") that's in question; Rand
replies

"It's not the swarthiness that's the issue. To paraphrase James
Carville, it's the jihad, stupid."

Reasonable inference: Rand believes those immigrants AS A GROUP
threaten jihad.

Pat compares riots by mid-19th-century Irish immigrants to riots in
French suburbs; Rand replies

"The Draft Riots were against, well...the draft. Not against western
civilization itself."

Reasonable inference: Rand believes the riots in France are "against
Western civilization itself."

Pat describes assorted violence by some Irish as an analogy to that by
Muslims in France; Rand replies

"I missed the part where they wanted to restore a Caliphate, and force
others to convert, or die."

Reasonable inference: Rand believes Muslim rioters in France want to
restore a Caliphate, and force others to convert or die.

I think your statements add up to precisely the claim you deny making.
But I could be mistaken; if the majority believes they add up to
incoherent nonsense instead, I'll go along with that.

Monte Davis
http://montedavis.livejournal.com

h (Rand Simberg) wrote:

Go read littlegreenfootballs.com. Charles keeps an eye on it.

Let me get this straight:

Jochem, who lives in Europe with Muslim neighbors, says "In my
experience it's not so bad."

Rand, who lives in Florida, says oh yes it is; "I doubt if you hang
out in the mosques on Friday night, or understand the Arabic or Urdu
in which they usually usually preach their hate."

Monte Davis implies a smidgen of doubt t that Rand hangs in the
mosques, or speaks Arabic or Urdu.

Rand trumps with unimpeachable authority:

"Go read littlegreenfootballs.com. Charles [Johnson, a web designer
in California] keeps an eye on it."

Well, that certainly settles it.

Monte Davis
http://montedavis.livejournal.com

On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 20:08:39 GMT, in a place far, far away, Monte
Davis made the phosphor on my monitor glow
in such a way as to indicate that:

(Rand Simberg) wrote:

I missed the part where you established that all 6+ million Muslims in
France -- or any significant fraction of them -- are "jihadis," and
that a quarrel over headscarves in school is a demand to convert or
dire.

That's because I never made such a claim.

Monte (talking about Muslim immigrants in France AS A GROUP) wonders
if it's their swarthiness (i.e. "race") that's in question; Rand
replies

"It's not the swarthiness that's the issue. To paraphrase James
Carville, it's the jihad, stupid."

Reasonable inference: Rand believes those immigrants AS A GROUP
threaten jihad.

I believe that a significant subset of them do. With good reason.
That's not the same as thinking they do to a man and woman, which was
your strawman.

Pat compares riots by mid-19th-century Irish immigrants to riots in
French suburbs; Rand replies

"The Draft Riots were against, well...the draft. Not against western
civilization itself."

Reasonable inference: Rand believes the riots in France are "against
Western civilization itself."

In some sense, they in fact are. They're certainly specifically
targeting the most immediate representatives of it--a civil police
force.

Pat describes assorted violence by some Irish as an analogy to that by
Muslims in France; Rand replies

"I missed the part where they wanted to restore a Caliphate, and force
others to convert, or die."

Reasonable inference: Rand believes Muslim rioters in France want to
restore a Caliphate, and force others to convert or die.

Actually, there's reaon to think that many do, though not all, based
on interviews with them. They are inspired by Imans who preach
exactly that.

I think your statements add up to precisely the claim you deny making.

Nope.

But I could be mistaken; if the majority believes they add up to
incoherent nonsense instead, I'll go along with that.

On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 15:08:39 -0500, Monte Davis wrote
(in article ):

I think your statements add up to precisely the claim you deny making. But I
could be mistaken; if the majority believes they add up to incoherent
nonsense instead, I'll go along with that.

I vote with Monte. Not that Rand cares what I think, I'm sure.

--
Herb Schaltegger
"You can run on for a long time . . . sooner or later, God'll cut you
down." - Johnny Cash
http://www.angryherb.net

On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 20:26:26 GMT, in a place far, far away, Monte
Davis made the phosphor on my monitor glow
in such a way as to indicate that:

(Rand Simberg) wrote:

Go read littlegreenfootballs.com. Charles keeps an eye on it.

Let me get this straight:

Jochem, who lives in Europe with Muslim neighbors, says "In my
experience it's not so bad."

As I said, Europe is a big place. Or perhaps you haven't noticed?

Rand, who lives in Florida, says oh yes it is; "I doubt if you hang
out in the mosques on Friday night, or understand the Arabic or Urdu
in which they usually usually preach their hate."

Monte Davis implies a smidgen of doubt t that Rand hangs in the
mosques, or speaks Arabic or Urdu.

No, but I actually read reports from people who do, from all over
Europe, not just in Jochem's neighborhood. I doubt that Jochem does.

Rand trumps with unimpeachable authority:

"Go read littlegreenfootballs.com. Charles [Johnson, a web designer
in California] keeps an eye on it."

Well, that certainly settles it.

It provides a source of information that I have, and that apparetly
Jochem does not. I made no claim that it "settled it." I was simply
substantiating the reason for my beliefs.

But please, continue with your apparently fascinating hobby of
assembling strawmen.

On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 20:36:58 GMT, in a place far, far away,
h (Rand Simberg) made the phosphor on my
monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that:

"It's not the swarthiness that's the issue. To paraphrase James
Carville, it's the jihad, stupid."

Reasonable inference: Rand believes those immigrants AS A GROUP
threaten jihad.

I believe that a significant subset of them do. With good reason.

That is, I have good reason to think that, not that they have good
reason to do so...

h (Rand Simberg) writes:

Monte Davis implies a smidgen of doubt t that Rand hangs in the
mosques, or speaks Arabic or Urdu.

No, but I actually read reports from people who do, from all over
Europe, not just in Jochem's neighborhood. I doubt that Jochem does.

Jochem reads on average about five newspapers and several Web sources a
day, from different countries. I'm not especially looking for third-hand
accounts of what someone in some mosque might have said or not said,
right. If I wanted, I would be able to find many other things someone
said somewhere. Like all that nonsense about nuking the Moslems off the
planet written by people in these groups not long ago. Do I base
"beliefs" on that? Certainly not.

You can just hope that the Arabs can't read English, because when they
can, they might easily get the impression that the US is intending to
squash the Arab world into nothing right soon now. Well, maybe they can
and they get exactly that impression and act on it.

I have no high hopes for sanity in this world and you, Rand, are in no
way more sane than any random Islamic zealot. You're a believer.


Jochem

--
"A designer knows he has arrived at perfection not when there is no
longer anything to add, but when there is no longer anything to take away."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 23:51:46 +0200, in a place far, far away, Jochem
Huhmann made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such a
way as to indicate that:

(Rand Simberg) writes:

Monte Davis implies a smidgen of doubt t that Rand hangs in the
mosques, or speaks Arabic or Urdu.

No, but I actually read reports from people who do, from all over
Europe, not just in Jochem's neighborhood. I doubt that Jochem does.

Jochem reads on average about five newspapers and several Web sources a
day, from different countries. I'm not especially looking for third-hand
accounts of what someone in some mosque might have said or not said,
right.

Of course not. You're not even looking for first-hand accounts. It
might upset your happy little world view.

If I wanted, I would be able to find many other things someone
said somewhere.

We aren't talking about "someone," "somewhere." We are talking about
imams in mosques. In Europe, and even in the US.

Like all that nonsense about nuking the Moslems off the
planet written by people in these groups not long ago. Do I base
"beliefs" on that? Certainly not.

Who expects you to? Rants by nuts in newsgroups are in a different
class.

You can just hope that the Arabs can't read English, because when they
can, they might easily get the impression that the US is intending to
squash the Arab world into nothing right soon now.

How would they do that? Do you have a credible cite?

Other than by nuts in newsgroups?

Well, maybe they can
and they get exactly that impression and act on it.

Yes. Right. It's all our fault. We'll ignore all of the cries in
the mosques *every Friday night* about the great evil that is the US,
and death to it, and Israel, and the Jews that are pigs and apes.

I have no high hopes for sanity in this world and you, Rand, are in no
way more sane than any random Islamic zealot. You're a believer.

Ummm....

OK.

There's an old saying about rivers in Egypt...

"Herb Schaltegger" wrote in
message .com...
On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 15:08:39 -0500, Monte Davis wrote
(in article ):

I think your statements add up to precisely the claim you deny making.
But I
could be mistaken; if the majority believes they add up to incoherent
nonsense instead, I'll go along with that.

I vote with Monte. Not that Rand cares what I think, I'm sure.

And let's see. Rand sitting comfortably in Florida quotes one website that
somehow makes him more knowledgable then someone living in Europe. Oh but
wait, it's a big place, I forget. Obviously Jochem hangs around with the
wrong crowds.

And of course Rand will complain "I meant X, you're all misconstruing what
I'm saying."

Generally when person after person says the same thing about you, you might
want to listen.

Oh and for the record, given the choice between you and Eric, I'll take Eric
any day of the week.

At least him I find entertaining. So consider that one negative vote.



--
Herb Schaltegger
"You can run on for a long time . . . sooner or later, God'll cut you
down." - Johnny Cash
http://www.angryherb.net