Size of Saturn

Hello all, first of all I am pretty NEW to the astronomy, so don't
mind me if I say something "unrelated"
Anyways, I own a Celestron NexStar 114, 114 mm (4.5") Diameter
Newtonian Reflector, Focal Length of 1000 mm and Focal Ratio of f/9.
Using the 10MM (100X) eyepiece last night I wanted to observe Saturn.
Well, I don't know but it sucked. You can see it with naked eye, and
through my telescope it was maybe double that size, so twice as big as
you can see it with your own eyes and I couldn't see any rings at all,
it was that small.
I am pretty sure it was Saturn and I double checked with computer
software Starry Night just to be sure. Right of it it was Orion
(nebula if I am not mistaken), looked at the orangy star Betelgeuse,
it also sucked, double the size that you can see it with your own
eyes.
Moon, well I use the 25MM eyepeice for observing moon, the other one
10MM is too strong, so in other words I see the moon just fine.
Please, tell me some advice, is it me, with this kind of telescope
should you be able to see Saturn's rings or saturn at the size of
marble, or do you have any idea what;s happening.

Thank you very much, any help is greatly appreciated.

"SrkY" wrote in message
om...

Moon, well I use the 25MM eyepeice for observing moon, the other one
10MM is too strong, so in other words I see the moon just fine.
Please, tell me some advice, is it me, with this kind of telescope
should you be able to see Saturn's rings or saturn at the size of
marble, or do you have any idea what;s happening.

If you were seeing stars at "twice the size" of nekkid eye viewing, you were
probably out of focus. Stars should be tight pinpoints of light.

The other thing you should do is set your expectations. Saturn is lovely,
but you're never going to get Hubble quality images from the ground,
especialy with a 4.5" aperture. Start with a little wider field of view,
and find Saturn. Inspect it like you would a small diamond. Then add
maginification to suit.

On 15 Nov 2003 10:19:00 -0800, (SrkY) wrote:

Hello all, first of all I am pretty NEW to the astronomy, so don't
mind me if I say something "unrelated"
Anyways, I own a Celestron NexStar 114, 114 mm (4.5") Diameter
Newtonian Reflector, Focal Length of 1000 mm and Focal Ratio of f/9.
Using the 10MM (100X) eyepiece last night I wanted to observe Saturn.
Well, I don't know but it sucked. You can see it with naked eye, and
through my telescope it was maybe double that size, so twice as big as
you can see it with your own eyes and I couldn't see any rings at all,
it was that small.
I am pretty sure it was Saturn and I double checked with computer
software Starry Night just to be sure. Right of it it was Orion
(nebula if I am not mistaken), looked at the orangy star Betelgeuse,
it also sucked, double the size that you can see it with your own
eyes.
Moon, well I use the 25MM eyepeice for observing moon, the other one
10MM is too strong, so in other words I see the moon just fine.
Please, tell me some advice, is it me, with this kind of telescope
should you be able to see Saturn's rings or saturn at the size of
marble, or do you have any idea what;s happening.

Thank you very much, any help is greatly appreciated.



The one thing that you should be aware of when viewing is the
condition of the atmosphere. I don't know how much observing you have
done but transparency and a stable atmosphere (not much or no
scintillation) is important for resolving features on planets.

You should be able to clearly see Saturn with 4.5" of aperture and
even the Cassini division. Light polluted skies may have an effect
but generally for the planets, this is not an issue.

"SrkY" wrote in message
om...
Hello all, first of all I am pretty NEW to the astronomy, so don't
mind me if I say something "unrelated"
Anyways, I own a Celestron NexStar 114, 114 mm (4.5") Diameter
Newtonian Reflector, Focal Length of 1000 mm and Focal Ratio of f/9.
Using the 10MM (100X) eyepiece last night I wanted to observe Saturn.
Well, I don't know but it sucked. You can see it with naked eye, and
through my telescope it was maybe double that size, so twice as big as
you can see it with your own eyes and I couldn't see any rings at all,
it was that small.
I am pretty sure it was Saturn and I double checked with computer
software Starry Night just to be sure. Right of it it was Orion
(nebula if I am not mistaken), looked at the orangy star Betelgeuse,
it also sucked, double the size that you can see it with your own
eyes.
Start here. Stars are _point_ sources. They won't get bigger with any normal
telescope!. What you should see, are hundreds of other stars that are not
visible to the naked eye. a telescope (except the very largest instruments),
cannot show 'disks' for stars at all. The increase in apparent size, may
reflect the scope not quite being focussed, or just the sheer brightness of
the stars.

Moon, well I use the 25MM eyepeice for observing moon, the other one
10MM is too strong, so in other words I see the moon just fine.
Please, tell me some advice, is it me, with this kind of telescope
should you be able to see Saturn's rings or saturn at the size of
marble, or do you have any idea what;s happening.

Thank you very much, any help is greatly appreciated.
Why is the 10mm 'too strong' on the Moon?. It should appear 2.5* the size
that it is in the 25mm eyepiece. Larger than the field of the eyepiece, but
you can then look at smaller detail. Magnification does not change with what
you look at. If the Moon appears bigger in the 10mm eyepiece, so should
Saturn. With the 10mm eyepiece, Saturn with it's rings, should appear the
size of a truck wheel and tyre, about 100 yards from you. Not large, but big
enough to see the fact that there is a tyre as such.
I think you may have been looking at perhaps Gamma Geminorum by mistake.
This is East of Orion, by about the same amount as Saturn at the moment, and
a little to the West of Saturn. Saturn should be plainly obvious as having
real size, as opposed to being a point.

Best Wishes

Saturn is about 75,000 miles in diameter but it is also about 9.5 au from
the sun. So at oposition(the closest it ever gets saturn will be about
790,000,000 miles. Should you be able to see the rings in your scope,
definitly yes. You will want to use the highest magnification your scope
can handle. A rule of thumb is 40 x your scopes apeture in inches.

So, your scope has an apeture of 114mm which approxzimatly equals 4.5
inches. Now you need to know the focal length of your scope.

To figure magnification for any eye piece

Mag = focal length(in mm)/ eye piece (in mm)

So therefore you would want to use about a 25mm eye piece.

This paticular telescope has a reputation as being low quality, which are
usually sold with poor quality eye pieces, Therefore I recomend upgrading
the eye pieces to get the maximum effect out of your telescope. I would
look at upgrading them with medium quality eye pieces. Orion sells the
Sirius line of eye pieces that will probably meet your needs. I would
recomend the 25mm for high power and the 32mm for low power.

Terry


On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 10:19:00 +0000, SrkY wrote:

Hello all, first of all I am pretty NEW to the astronomy, so don't
mind me if I say something "unrelated"
Anyways, I own a Celestron NexStar 114, 114 mm (4.5") Diameter
Newtonian Reflector, Focal Length of 1000 mm and Focal Ratio of f/9.
Using the 10MM (100X) eyepiece last night I wanted to observe Saturn.
Well, I don't know but it sucked. You can see it with naked eye, and
through my telescope it was maybe double that size, so twice as big as
you can see it with your own eyes and I couldn't see any rings at all,
it was that small.
I am pretty sure it was Saturn and I double checked with computer
software Starry Night just to be sure. Right of it it was Orion
(nebula if I am not mistaken), looked at the orangy star Betelgeuse,
it also sucked, double the size that you can see it with your own
eyes.
Moon, well I use the 25MM eyepeice for observing moon, the other one
10MM is too strong, so in other words I see the moon just fine.
Please, tell me some advice, is it me, with this kind of telescope
should you be able to see Saturn's rings or saturn at the size of
marble, or do you have any idea what;s happening.

Thank you very much, any help is greatly appreciated.

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 19:09:25 GMT, "Terry A. Haimann"
wrote:

Saturn is about 75,000 miles in diameter but it is also about 9.5 au from
the sun. So at oposition(the closest it ever gets saturn will be about
790,000,000 miles. Should you be able to see the rings in your scope,
definitly yes. You will want to use the highest magnification your scope
can handle. A rule of thumb is 40 x your scopes apeture in inches.

So, your scope has an apeture of 114mm which approxzimatly equals 4.5
inches. Now you need to know the focal length of your scope.

To figure magnification for any eye piece

Mag = focal length(in mm)/ eye piece (in mm)

So therefore you would want to use about a 25mm eye piece.

This paticular telescope has a reputation as being low quality, which are
usually sold with poor quality eye pieces, Therefore I recomend upgrading
the eye pieces to get the maximum effect out of your telescope. I would
look at upgrading them with medium quality eye pieces. Orion sells the
Sirius line of eye pieces that will probably meet your needs. I would
recomend the 25mm for high power and the 32mm for low power.


I don't quite follow your math here. It started okay by stating that
he should use about 40X his aperture but where does the 25mm figure
come from for high power?

40X 4.5' = 180

therefore, with 1000mm as FL, he should use a 6mm or 5mm eyepiece for
high power viewing.

A nice Barlow would be a good option in tandem with his 10mm eyepiece.

G../0

"SrkY" wrote in message
om...
Hello all, first of all I am pretty NEW to the astronomy, so don't
mind me if I say something "unrelated"
Anyways, I own a Celestron NexStar 114, 114 mm (4.5") Diameter
Newtonian Reflector, Focal Length of 1000 mm and Focal Ratio of f/9.
Using the 10MM (100X) eyepiece last night I wanted to observe Saturn.
Well, I don't know but it sucked. You can see it with naked eye, and
through my telescope it was maybe double that size, so twice as big as
you can see it with your own eyes and I couldn't see any rings at all,
it was that small.
I am pretty sure it was Saturn and I double checked with computer
software Starry Night just to be sure. Right of it it was Orion
(nebula if I am not mistaken), looked at the orangy star Betelgeuse,
it also sucked, double the size that you can see it with your own
eyes.
Moon, well I use the 25MM eyepeice for observing moon, the other one
10MM is too strong, so in other words I see the moon just fine.
Please, tell me some advice, is it me, with this kind of telescope
should you be able to see Saturn's rings or saturn at the size of
marble, or do you have any idea what;s happening.

Thank you very much, any help is greatly appreciated.

You may not be focusing your scope properly. When the scope is focused on
the object, the object is at its SMALLEST point, not its largest point.
Stars should show as tiny points of light. Brighter stars will be larger
points of light but all stars, even the larger ones, are points of light.
Planets -- Jupiter, Saturn, and Mars which is fading fast -- will show as
small circular objects.

The rings of Saturn are readily visible in your scope.

The magnification of your scope is dependent on the eyepiece. To find the
magnification, divide the focal length of the scope by the focal length of
the eyepiece. For example, you have two eyepieces -- 25mm and 10mm. You
scope's focal length is 1,000mm. So:

1,000 divided by 25 = 40X magnification with the 25mm eyepiece
1,000 divided by 10 = 100X magnification with the 10mm eyepiece

100X will show the rings of Saturn. If the scope is in focus, the rings
will be clearly separated from the planet and you will have quite a
spectacular sight. However, you probably want to go to a higher
magnification than 100X

The highest magnification your scope can obtain is roughly 50 to 60 times
the aperture. A 4.5 inch scope, then, will provide useful magnification up
to 225X to 270X -- HOWEVER -- max magnification is limited more by the
atmosphere than by the scope. You should be able to go to 200X without a
problem. You will only use the high magnifications on planets so don't get
too excited about going up into the 250X range.

I recommend you do the following, in this order:

1. Practice focusing the scope. When the scope is in focus, objects are at
their SMALLEST point -- put the 10mm eyepiece in the scope, find Saturn --
you know where it is -- and run the focus in and out, watching Saturn get
smaller and smaller then, all of a sudden, it will be crystal clear with the
rings quite visible -- if, as you move the focus, it starts getting bigger,
you are going the wrong way..

2. Buy a 2X Barlow -- you can find them on any dealer's website. The
Barlow multiplies the magnification of your eyepieces by a factor of two,
thereby doubling the number of eyepieces you have. So, if you have a 2X
Barlow, your 25mm eyepiece plus the Barlow gives you:
-- 1,000mm / 25mm = 40X x 2X for the Barlow = 80X; your 25mm eyepiece will
give you 40X or 80X
-- 1,000mm / 10mm = 100X x 2X for the Barlow = 200X; your 10mm eyepiece
gives you 100X or 200X

3. Look into purchasing something like an 13-14mm eyepiece. The Meade
SuperWide Angle is a good eyepiece. 13mm will give you 77X or 154X with the
Barlow; 14mm yields 71X, 142X with the Barlow. This magnification will
"fill the gaps" between the eyepieces you now have. With your current
eyepieces, a 13 or 14mm eyepiece, and a Barlow, you will have the following
magnifications: 40X, 71X-77X, 80X, 100X, 142X-154X, 200X. You can study
anything your scope will see with this magnification range.

-----

Joe S.

On 2003-11-15, SrkY wrote:
Newtonian Reflector, Focal Length of 1000 mm and Focal Ratio of f/9.
Using the 10MM (100X) eyepiece last night I wanted to observe Saturn.
Well, I don't know but it sucked. You can see it with naked eye, and
through my telescope it was maybe double that size, so twice as big as
you can see it with your own eyes and I couldn't see any rings at all,
it was that small.
If you couldn't see rings at 100x you were not looking at Saturn.

--
When the fog came in on little cat feet last night, it left these little
muddy paw prints on the hood of my car.

guid0 wrote in message . ..
On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 19:09:25 GMT, "Terry A. Haimann"
wrote:

Saturn is about 75,000 miles in diameter but it is also about 9.5 au from
the sun. So at oposition(the closest it ever gets saturn will be about
790,000,000 miles. Should you be able to see the rings in your scope,
definitly yes. You will want to use the highest magnification your scope
can handle. A rule of thumb is 40 x your scopes apeture in inches.

So, your scope has an apeture of 114mm which approxzimatly equals 4.5
inches. Now you need to know the focal length of your scope.

To figure magnification for any eye piece

Mag = focal length(in mm)/ eye piece (in mm)

So therefore you would want to use about a 25mm eye piece.

This paticular telescope has a reputation as being low quality, which are
usually sold with poor quality eye pieces, Therefore I recomend upgrading
the eye pieces to get the maximum effect out of your telescope. I would
look at upgrading them with medium quality eye pieces. Orion sells the
Sirius line of eye pieces that will probably meet your needs. I would
recomend the 25mm for high power and the 32mm for low power.


I don't quite follow your math here. It started okay by stating that
he should use about 40X his aperture but where does the 25mm figure
come from for high power?

40X 4.5' = 180

therefore, with 1000mm as FL, he should use a 6mm or 5mm eyepiece for
high power viewing.

A nice Barlow would be a good option in tandem with his 10mm eyepiece.

G../0



Well, thanks everybody for reply, but could it be that my telescope is
maybe in a need of good collimation? I am very sure I indeed looked at
Saturn, and like I said, can't see the rings at all. Object itself was
really small, can't make it out at all, at the best focus still looked
like looking through some fog or mist. I don't expect it to be like
the Hubble images at all, but would like to see it something like the
size of a small marble, or the tip of small finger and a ring around
it. No idea what's wrong.
O btw I live in a city population 1 mill. So, most likely there is
some polution but still I think one should be able to see the planet
with this kind of telescope.

ThanX all, appreciate it....

You hit the nail on the head! He had to be looking at a star.

Al


"William Hamblen" wrote in message
news
On 2003-11-15, SrkY wrote:
Newtonian Reflector, Focal Length of 1000 mm and Focal Ratio of f/9.
Using the 10MM (100X) eyepiece last night I wanted to observe Saturn.
Well, I don't know but it sucked. You can see it with naked eye, and
through my telescope it was maybe double that size, so twice as big as
you can see it with your own eyes and I couldn't see any rings at all,
it was that small.
If you couldn't see rings at 100x you were not looking at Saturn.

--
When the fog came in on little cat feet last night, it left these little
muddy paw prints on the hood of my car.