Aether or whatever

Lots of off-topic groups removed

harry wrote:
"George Dishman" wrote in message
...

"Researcher" wrote in message
.. .
Ether or whatever it is fine if it stands for an absolute Reference
frame.

Ether: http://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/motm/n2o/n2oc.htm

On the other hand, the "luminiferous aether" was a material
substance which fills the universe through which light was
supposed to propagate as a transverse wave. It has nothing
to do with reference frames of any kind.

In fact, usually mediums have everything to do with reference frames for
those entities that it is a medium for - everyone(?) knows that the
atmosphere is a reference frame for sound.

No, the atmosphere is the medium through which
the sound propagates but if you are standing on
the ground on a windy day and measure the speed,
you will find it is anisotropic. The reference frame
is that of your instrument which is measuring the
speed, not the moving air.

George

George Dishman wrote:
harry wrote:
....
No, the atmosphere is the medium through which
the sound propagates but if you are standing on
the ground on a windy day and measure the speed,

Correcting a typo: that should have read "measure the
speed of sound," it did not mean the speed of the air.

you will find it is anisotropic. The reference frame
is that of your instrument which is measuring the
speed, not the moving air.

George

"George Dishman" wrote in message
ups.com...

George Dishman wrote:
harry wrote:
...
No, the atmosphere is the medium through which
the sound propagates but if you are standing on
the ground on a windy day and measure the speed,

Correcting a typo: that should have read "measure the
speed of sound," it did not mean the speed of the air.

you will find it is anisotropic. The reference frame
is that of your instrument which is measuring the
speed, not the moving air.

George

George, it is generally believed that the speed of sound in air is
isotropic, even if the speed of sound in air is anisotropic when measured
relative to the ground on a windy day. That is because the implicit
("standard") reference frame for waves is that in which the medium is in
rest. It's the same with the max. speed specification of an airoplane.

Harald

harry wrote:
"George Dishman" wrote in message
ups.com...

George Dishman wrote:
harry wrote:
...
No, the atmosphere is the medium through which
the sound propagates but if you are standing on
the ground on a windy day and measure the speed,

Correcting a typo: that should have read "measure the
speed of sound," it did not mean the speed of the air.

you will find it is anisotropic. The reference frame
is that of your instrument which is measuring the
speed, not the moving air.

George, it is generally believed that the speed of sound in air is
isotropic, even if the speed of sound in air is anisotropic when measured
relative to the ground on a windy day. That is because the implicit
("standard") reference frame ...

The phrase "frame of reference" means a mathematical
coordinate system and has nothing to do with the medium
carrying the waves. Your words "implicit" and "standard"
mean nothing in this context, the frame of reference is
that of the measuring instrument.

George

George Dishman wrote:
harry wrote:
"George Dishman" wrote in message
ups.com...
..........

The phrase "frame of reference" means a mathematical
coordinate system and has nothing to do with the medium
carrying the waves. Your words "implicit" and "standard"
mean nothing in this context, the frame of reference is
that of the measuring instrument.

George

If we specify a "frame of reference" in which the *medium* is at rest
then this frame of reference could "mean" an absolute reference frame
with respect to that medium.
In this regard let me express my viewpoint concerning the subject issue
" Aether or whatever" and the associated absolute reference frame.

Empty Space, Aether or Vacuum
-----------------------------
There are two notions of space in vogue. The first notion is of a
coordinate space and the second is that of physical space. Whereas the
metric scaling property is only associated with coordinate space, the
physical properties of permittivity, permeability and intrinsic
impedance are only associated with physical space. The notions of
physical space, empty space, vacuum, aether and their modern
reincarnation the quantum vacuum, all mean the same entity - call it
by any name. It is said that a rose by any other name will smell as
sweet. For detailed discussion of this issue kindly refer to,
http://www.geocities.com/gurcharn_sa...her_vacuum.pdf


Notion of Universal Reference Frame
-----------------------------------
The Universal or an Absolute reference frame may be defined as a
non-rotating inertial reference frame with its origin fixed with
respect to the 'Center of Mass' of the Universe. We know that the
origin of International Celestial Reference Frame (ICRF or BCRF) is
fixed at the barycenter or the center of mass of the solar system. If
we could locate a point O in ICRF such that O is fixed with respect to
the center of mass of our Universe, then a celestial reference frame
with its origin at O could be referred as the Universal Reference
Frame. For this we need to determine the velocity of O in ICRF which
will lead us to determine the velocity of ICRF in the Universal
Reference Frame. For establishing the Universal Reference Frame with
reference to ICRF, we don't need to establish the location of the
center of mass of the Universe. *The speed of light is an isotropic
constant c and the measures of distance and time are absolute in this
frame.*

This Universal or Absolute reference frame can be experimentally
established with the use of available technology. For details kindly
refer to,
http://www.geocities.com/gurcharn_sa...rsal_frame.pdf

Let me give you a brief description of the basic idea behind the
article "Experimental detection of Universal Reference Frame" referred
above.

Just for illustration, consider a ground station (A) in signal
communication with a Pioneer type spacecraft (B) at an approximate
distance D of 40 AU (40 * 1.5 * 10^11 m) from the station. Assume that
identical precision atomic clocks (synchronized in advance) along with
data processors are used at both ends (A and B) for signal
communication. Further assume that at an instant of time Ta_t a coded
signal pulse is transmitted from station A towards B (uplink signal)
containing the coded data of time Ta_t. Let this signal pulse reach
the spacecraft B at an instant of time Tb_r (as measured by the atomic
clock of B). Assume that at a subsequent instant of time Tb_t another
coded signal pulse is transmitted from spacecraft B towards station A
(downlink signal) containing the coded data of time Ta_t, Tb_r and
Tb_t. Let this downlink signal pulse reach ground station A at an
instant of time Ta_r. From this data, the data processor at A will
compute two intervals of time, first the uplink signal propagation time
Tu = Tb_r - Ta_t and second the downlink signal propagation time Td =
Ta_r - Tb_t.

Let us further assume that all measurements of distances and velocities
are done in the International Celestial Reference Frame (ICRF).
CASE I (ICRF)
In ICRF, speed of light (or signal propagation) is constant c and both
A and B are moving at uniform speed V1 (known) along the direction AB
as shown.

D
A.........................B
-----V1 -----V1

Therefore, c*Tu = D + V1*Tu ...(1)
and c*Td = D - V1*Td ...(2)
That is, Tu = D/(c-V1) ...(3)
and Td = D/(c+V1) ...(4)
Hence, V1 = c*(Tu-Td)/(Tu+Td) ...(5)

CASE II (GCRF)
Assume that our solar system and hence ICRF is in motion in the
Galactic Celestial Reference Frame (GCRF) at a speed of U1 (~ 220 km/s)
along the direction AB. Assuming the speed of light c to be constant in
the GCRF and both A and B moving at uniform speed V1 (known) in ICRF
along the direction AB. Therefore, in GCRF both A and B will be seen to
be moving at uniform speed of U1+V1 along the direction AB as shown.

D
A.........................B
--------U1+V1 --------U1+V1

Therefore, c*Tu = D + (U1+V1)*Tu ...(6)
and c*Td = D - (U1+V1)*Td ...(7)
That is, Tu = D/(c-(U1+V1)) ...(8)
and Td = D/(c+(U1+V1)) ...(9)
Hence, (U1+V1) = c*(Tu-Td)/(Tu+Td) ...(10)

CASE III (UCRF)
Assume that our solar system and hence ICRF is in motion in the
Universal Celestial Reference Frame (UCRF) at a speed of U1 (~ 500
km/s) along the direction AB. Assuming the speed of light c to be
constant in the UCRF and both A and B moving at uniform speed V1
(known) in ICRF along the direction AB as shown. Therefore, in UCRF
both A and B will be seen to be moving at uniform speed of U1+V1 along
the direction AB.

D
A.........................B
------------U1+V1 ------------U1+V1

Therefore, c*Tu = D + (U1+V1)*Tu ...(11)
and c*Td = D - (U1+V1)*Td ...(12)
That is, Tu = D/(c-(U1+V1)) ...(13)
and Td = D/(c+(U1+V1)) ...(14)
Hence, (U1+V1) = c*(Tu-Td)/(Tu+Td) ...(15)

Or U1 = c*(Tu-Td)/(Tu+Td) - V1 ...(16)

That is the speed of the solar system (or ICRF) through the Universal
Reference Frame can thus be determined. This leads to the detection of
the Universal Reference Frame of absolute motion in which the speed of
light is a universal constant.

For illustration, if U1+V1= 300 km/s and D= 6*10^12 m then,
Tu = 6e+12/(3e+8-3e+5)= 20020.02 sec
= 5 hr, 33 mts, 40.02 sec
Td = 6e+12/(3e+8+3e+5)= 19980.02 sec
= 5 hr, 33 mts, 0.02 sec
Therefore, Tu-Td = 40 seconds.
and Tu+Td = 11 hr, 6 mts, 40.04 sec
But if we calculate the Tu+Td by the usual relation,
Tu+Td = 2D/c = 1.2e+13/3e+8
= 40000 sec = 11 hr, 6 mts, 40.00 sec
Thus at a spacecraft distance of 40 AU, the anomaly in total up and
down signal propagation time could be as large as 40 milli seconds.
[It appears that in actual Pioneer 10 and 11 space missions the ranging
data could not be used possibly due to such abnormal differences
between uplink and downlink signal propagation times]

However if U1+V1= 300 km/s and D= 6*10^6 m then,
Tu-Td = 40 micro seconds
The accuracy of modern atomic clocks is of the order of a few nano
seconds and the synchronization accuracy between two atomic clocks can
be expected to be well within a microsecond range.

Therefore, to experimentally establish an Absolute or Universal
reference frame all that is required is to measure the uplink (Tu) and
downlink (Td) signal propagation times separately to compute the
velocity (U1) of the ICRF in the Absolute reference frame (equation
(16)).

This of course is a simplified description. The procedure described in
the above referred article is more detailed. The actual experiment can
be conducted from the International Space Station (ISS) by using the
GPS satellites as responders.

GSS

"George Dishman" wrote in message
ups.com...

harry wrote:
"George Dishman" wrote in message
ups.com...

George Dishman wrote:
harry wrote:
...
No, the atmosphere is the medium through which
the sound propagates but if you are standing on
the ground on a windy day and measure the speed,

Correcting a typo: that should have read "measure the
speed of sound," it did not mean the speed of the air.

you will find it is anisotropic. The reference frame
is that of your instrument which is measuring the
speed, not the moving air.

George, it is generally believed that the speed of sound in air is
isotropic, even if the speed of sound in air is anisotropic when measured
relative to the ground on a windy day. That is because the implicit
("standard") reference frame ...

The phrase "frame of reference" means a mathematical
coordinate system and has nothing to do with the medium
carrying the waves. Your words "implicit" and "standard"
mean nothing in this context, the frame of reference is
that of the measuring instrument.

George

Sure - the standard frame of measurement for specifying sound waves as well
as airoplanes is that in which the medium is in rest - I don't know how to
say that more clearly, sorry.

Harald

GSS wrote:
George Dishman wrote:
harry wrote:
"George Dishman" wrote in message
ups.com...
.........

The phrase "frame of reference" means a mathematical
coordinate system and has nothing to do with the medium
carrying the waves. Your words "implicit" and "standard"
mean nothing in this context, the frame of reference is
that of the measuring instrument.

If we specify a "frame of reference" in which the *medium* is at rest ...

How do you know that is even possible? To explain
gravitational effects like the bending of sunlight, one
approach is to treat the aether as flowing into the
Sun (and the same for other masses of course). The
flow is in different directions and at different speeds
at different locations on the surface, always towards
the centre. It isn't even possible to define a frame of
reference in which "the medium is at rest" under
those conditions.

then this frame of reference could "mean" an absolute reference frame
with respect to that medium.

That depends on what you mean by absolute. If I go
back to what I think is the defining source, Newton's
Principia, in his concepts of absolute time and space
the aether as a medium would have motion. The two
are quite different ideas.

I have to quit at that, I'm out of time.

George

"GSS" wrote in message
ups.com...

George Dishman wrote:
harry wrote:
"George Dishman" wrote in message
ups.com...
.........

The phrase "frame of reference" means a mathematical
coordinate system and has nothing to do with the medium
carrying the waves. Your words "implicit" and "standard"
mean nothing in this context, the frame of reference is
that of the measuring instrument.

George

If we specify a "frame of reference" in which the *medium* is at rest
then this frame of reference could "mean" an absolute reference frame
with respect to that medium.
In this regard let me express my viewpoint concerning the subject issue
" Aether or whatever" and the associated absolute reference frame.

Empty Space, Aether or Vacuum
-----------------------------
There are two notions of space in vogue. The first notion is of a
coordinate space and the second is that of physical space. Whereas the
metric scaling property is only associated with coordinate space, the
physical properties of permittivity, permeability and intrinsic
impedance are only associated with physical space. The notions of
physical space, empty space, vacuum, aether and their modern
reincarnation the quantum vacuum, all mean the same entity - call it
by any name. It is said that a rose by any other name will smell as
sweet. For detailed discussion of this issue kindly refer to,
http://www.geocities.com/gurcharn_sa...her_vacuum.pdf


Notion of Universal Reference Frame
-----------------------------------
The Universal or an Absolute reference frame may be defined as a
non-rotating inertial reference frame with its origin fixed with
respect to the 'Center of Mass' of the Universe. We know that the
origin of International Celestial Reference Frame (ICRF or BCRF) is
fixed at the barycenter or the center of mass of the solar system. If
we could locate a point O in ICRF such that O is fixed with respect to
the center of mass of our Universe, then a celestial reference frame
with its origin at O could be referred as the Universal Reference
Frame. For this we need to determine the velocity of O in ICRF which
will lead us to determine the velocity of ICRF in the Universal
Reference Frame. For establishing the Universal Reference Frame with
reference to ICRF, we don't need to establish the location of the
center of mass of the Universe. *The speed of light is an isotropic
constant c and the measures of distance and time are absolute in this
frame.*

This Universal or Absolute reference frame can be experimentally
established with the use of available technology. For details kindly
refer to,
http://www.geocities.com/gurcharn_sa...rsal_frame.pdf

Let me give you a brief description of the basic idea behind the
article "Experimental detection of Universal Reference Frame" referred
above.

Just for illustration, consider a ground station (A) in signal
communication with a Pioneer type spacecraft (B) at an approximate
distance D of 40 AU (40 * 1.5 * 10^11 m) from the station. Assume that
identical precision atomic clocks (synchronized in advance) along with
data processors are used at both ends (A and B) for signal
communication. Further assume that at an instant of time Ta_t a coded
signal pulse is transmitted from station A towards B (uplink signal)
containing the coded data of time Ta_t. Let this signal pulse reach
the spacecraft B at an instant of time Tb_r (as measured by the atomic
clock of B). Assume that at a subsequent instant of time Tb_t another
coded signal pulse is transmitted from spacecraft B towards station A
(downlink signal) containing the coded data of time Ta_t, Tb_r and
Tb_t. Let this downlink signal pulse reach ground station A at an
instant of time Ta_r. From this data, the data processor at A will
compute two intervals of time, first the uplink signal propagation time
Tu = Tb_r - Ta_t and second the downlink signal propagation time Td =
Ta_r - Tb_t.

Let us further assume that all measurements of distances and velocities
are done in the International Celestial Reference Frame (ICRF).
CASE I (ICRF)
In ICRF, speed of light (or signal propagation) is constant c and both
A and B are moving at uniform speed V1 (known) along the direction AB
as shown.

D
A.........................B
-----V1 -----V1

Therefore, c*Tu = D + V1*Tu ...(1)
and c*Td = D - V1*Td ...(2)
That is, Tu = D/(c-V1) ...(3)
and Td = D/(c+V1) ...(4)
Hence, V1 = c*(Tu-Td)/(Tu+Td) ...(5)

CASE II (GCRF)
Assume that our solar system and hence ICRF is in motion in the
Galactic Celestial Reference Frame (GCRF) at a speed of U1 (~ 220 km/s)
along the direction AB. Assuming the speed of light c to be constant in
the GCRF and both A and B moving at uniform speed V1 (known) in ICRF
along the direction AB. Therefore, in GCRF both A and B will be seen to
be moving at uniform speed of U1+V1 along the direction AB as shown.

D
A.........................B
--------U1+V1 --------U1+V1

Therefore, c*Tu = D + (U1+V1)*Tu ...(6)
and c*Td = D - (U1+V1)*Td ...(7)
That is, Tu = D/(c-(U1+V1)) ...(8)
and Td = D/(c+(U1+V1)) ...(9)
Hence, (U1+V1) = c*(Tu-Td)/(Tu+Td) ...(10)

CASE III (UCRF)
Assume that our solar system and hence ICRF is in motion in the
Universal Celestial Reference Frame (UCRF) at a speed of U1 (~ 500
km/s) along the direction AB. Assuming the speed of light c to be
constant in the UCRF and both A and B moving at uniform speed V1
(known) in ICRF along the direction AB as shown. Therefore, in UCRF
both A and B will be seen to be moving at uniform speed of U1+V1 along
the direction AB.

D
A.........................B
------------U1+V1 ------------U1+V1

Therefore, c*Tu = D + (U1+V1)*Tu ...(11)
and c*Td = D - (U1+V1)*Td ...(12)
That is, Tu = D/(c-(U1+V1)) ...(13)
and Td = D/(c+(U1+V1)) ...(14)
Hence, (U1+V1) = c*(Tu-Td)/(Tu+Td) ...(15)

Or U1 = c*(Tu-Td)/(Tu+Td) - V1 ...(16)

That is the speed of the solar system (or ICRF) through the Universal
Reference Frame can thus be determined. This leads to the detection of
the Universal Reference Frame of absolute motion in which the speed of
light is a universal constant.

For illustration, if U1+V1= 300 km/s and D= 6*10^12 m then,
Tu = 6e+12/(3e+8-3e+5)= 20020.02 sec
= 5 hr, 33 mts, 40.02 sec
Td = 6e+12/(3e+8+3e+5)= 19980.02 sec
= 5 hr, 33 mts, 0.02 sec
Therefore, Tu-Td = 40 seconds.
and Tu+Td = 11 hr, 6 mts, 40.04 sec
But if we calculate the Tu+Td by the usual relation,
Tu+Td = 2D/c = 1.2e+13/3e+8
= 40000 sec = 11 hr, 6 mts, 40.00 sec
Thus at a spacecraft distance of 40 AU, the anomaly in total up and
down signal propagation time could be as large as 40 milli seconds.
[It appears that in actual Pioneer 10 and 11 space missions the ranging
data could not be used possibly due to such abnormal differences
between uplink and downlink signal propagation times]

However if U1+V1= 300 km/s and D= 6*10^6 m then,
Tu-Td = 40 micro seconds
The accuracy of modern atomic clocks is of the order of a few nano
seconds and the synchronization accuracy between two atomic clocks can
be expected to be well within a microsecond range.

Therefore, to experimentally establish an Absolute or Universal
reference frame all that is required is to measure the uplink (Tu) and
downlink (Td) signal propagation times separately to compute the
velocity (U1) of the ICRF in the Absolute reference frame (equation
(16)).

I lost track of what you were doing but here it's clear: from signal
propagation times it's *impossible* - at least in theory - to determine an
Absolute Reference frame. That's the ABC (in fact the first postulate) of
SRT. Thus, without having had a close look at it, I can safely assume that
you didn't correctly apply the Lorentz transformations or its alternative of
{relativity of simultaneity + time dilation + length contraction}. The
locally determined speed of light in vacuum is always isotropically c.

Harald

This of course is a simplified description. The procedure described in
the above referred article is more detailed. The actual experiment can
be conducted from the International Space Station (ISS) by using the
GPS satellites as responders.

GSS

George Dishman wrote:
GSS wrote:
George Dishman wrote:
harry wrote:
"George Dishman" wrote in message
ups.com...
.........

The phrase "frame of reference" means a mathematical
coordinate system and has nothing to do with the medium
carrying the waves. Your words "implicit" and "standard"
mean nothing in this context, the frame of reference is
that of the measuring instrument.

If we specify a "frame of reference" in which the *medium* is at rest ...

How do you know that is even possible?
That is quite elementary. In a "frame of reference" in which the
*isotropic medium* is at rest, the characteristic speed of propagation
of a *disturbance wave* (eg. pressure wave, stress/strain wave or
electromagnetic wave) will be an *isotropic* constant. In all other
reference frames in which the medium is in motion, such a
characteristic speed of propagation will be anisotropic.

To explain gravitational effects like the bending of sunlight,

How are you so sure that the bending of light *is due to* gravitational
effects and *not due to* the refraction effects?

one approach is to treat the aether as flowing into the
Sun (and the same for other masses of course). The
flow is in different directions and at different speeds
at different locations on the surface, always towards
the centre. It isn't even possible to define a frame of
reference in which "the medium is at rest" under
those conditions.

Kindly let me know from where did you learn all such rubbish as "the
aether flowing into the Sun..." ? Especially when you run out of time
for reading something sensible!!


then this frame of reference could "mean" an absolute reference frame
with respect to that medium.

That depends on what you mean by absolute.

By absolute we mean what is not relative. I am fully convinced that
both relativity theories (SR and GR) are fundamentally wrong.
SR is primarily a study of * moving inertial* reference frames. All
inertial reference frames are *defined* to be in relative uniform
motion and hence can not be under *any accelerated motion*. Nor by
definition can the inertial reference frames be seen to be moving on
curved paths or trajectories. Now, other than hypothetical frames
mentioned in relativity text books, can you mention even a single
practical reference frame within our galaxy, which you consider as
truly *inertial*, that is not moving on a curved path in the galaxy?

GR model on the other hand, is a study of deformations of space and
time introduced by the Riemannian metric induced by the gravitational
field. Do you understand that under the influence of static
gravitational field, only radial dimension of space gets *deformed*
without affecting the tangential dimensions. Now can you mentally
visualize that such anisotropic deformation of space continuum will
lead to a state of discontinuum?? That is why GR model is physically
invalid.

http://www.geocities.com/gurcharn_sa...uum_strain.htm
http://www.geocities.com/gurcharn_sa...alidity_gr.pdf


If I go
back to what I think is the defining source, Newton's
Principia, in his concepts of absolute time and space
the aether as a medium would have motion. The two
are quite different ideas.

You have got it quite wrong. The fundamental notion of time is absolute
but our measure of time is a relative measure of change.
http://www.geocities.com/gurcharn_sa...me_measure.htm
As I explained in the last post, the empty space, aether or vacuum
refer to the one and the same entity, call it by any name.
http://www.geocities.com/gurcharn_sa...her_vacuum.pdf


I have to quit at that, I'm out of time.
George
Kindly do spare a little of your valuable time and study the proposal
for experimental detection of the Universal or absolute reference frame
referred in my last post. I do need your comments and opinion on the
same.

GSS

"GSS" wrote in message
ups.com...

George Dishman wrote:
GSS wrote:
George Dishman wrote:
harry wrote:
"George Dishman" wrote in message
ups.com...
.........

The phrase "frame of reference" means a mathematical
coordinate system and has nothing to do with the medium
carrying the waves. Your words "implicit" and "standard"
mean nothing in this context, the frame of reference is
that of the measuring instrument.

If we specify a "frame of reference" in which the *medium* is at rest
...

How do you know that is even possible?
That is quite elementary. In a "frame of reference" in which the
*isotropic medium* is at rest, ...

The point is that in general the medium may *not* be
isotropic. If some parts of the medium are moving
relative to others then it is impossible to define a
single frame in which all parts are at rest.

... the characteristic speed of propagation
of a *disturbance wave* (eg. pressure wave, stress/strain wave or
electromagnetic wave) will be an *isotropic* constant. In all other
reference frames in which the medium is in motion, such a
characteristic speed of propagation will be anisotropic.

To explain gravitational effects like the bending of sunlight,

How are you so sure that the bending of light *is due to* gravitational
effects and *not due to* the refraction effects?

Two reasons, first because the plasma density is
known with reasonable accuracy and is many orders of
magnitude too small to explain the amount of bending
observed and second the bending is independent of
wavelength which is not true for the plasma.

one approach is to treat the aether as flowing into the
Sun (and the same for other masses of course). The
flow is in different directions and at different speeds
at different locations on the surface, always towards
the centre. It isn't even possible to define a frame of
reference in which "the medium is at rest" under
those conditions.

Kindly let me know from where did you learn all such rubbish as "the
aether flowing into the Sun..." ?

It's what so aether supporters have told me is their
approach to extending LET to cope with gravitational
effects like Pound Rebka.

Especially when you run out of time
for reading something sensible!!

I car-share. I either had to go then or walk the 25
miles home :-( I'll try to reply to the rest shortly.

then this frame of reference could "mean" an absolute reference frame
with respect to that medium.

That depends on what you mean by absolute.

By absolute we mean what is not relative.

There are two interpreatations I have seen, one being
that a single isolated body has some well-defined
"absolute velocity" relative to Newtonian space, the
other being more limited to saying that simultaneity
is frame independent but that Galilean relativity
means that it is not possible even _in_principle_ to
define an absolute velocity.

I am fully convinced that
both relativity theories (SR and GR) are fundamentally wrong.
SR is primarily a study of * moving inertial* reference frames. All
inertial reference frames are *defined* to be in relative uniform
motion and hence can not be under *any accelerated motion*.

That is not actually true, SR can handle accelerated
frames with some effort but you get some pseudo-forces
appearing. What it cannot handle is gravitational tidal
forces. However, that is aside from your main point.

Nor by
definition can the inertial reference frames be seen to be moving on
curved paths or trajectories. Now, other than hypothetical frames
mentioned in relativity text books, can you mention even a single
practical reference frame within our galaxy, which you consider as
truly *inertial*, that is not moving on a curved path in the galaxy?

The reference frame in which, at exactly noon today
local time, the tip of my nose was at rest at the origin.
It is of course inertial by definition.

GR model on the other hand, is a study of deformations of space and
time introduced by the Riemannian metric induced by the gravitational
field. Do you understand that under the influence of static
gravitational field, only radial dimension of space gets *deformed*
without affecting the tangential dimensions.

That is not true in general but I think you are referring
specifically to the Schwarzschild solution.

Now can you mentally
visualize that such anisotropic deformation of space continuum will
lead to a state of discontinuum??

The metric of the Schwarzschild solution is the result of
a stress-energy distribution which is spherically symmetric
hence of course the metric is also spherically symmetric.

That is why GR model is physically
invalid.

You'll have to come up with something better than that,
the fact that a spherically symmetric cause produces a
spherically symmetric effect is hardly surprising!

http://www.geocities.com/gurcharn_sa...uum_strain.htm
http://www.geocities.com/gurcharn_sa...alidity_gr.pdf


If I go
back to what I think is the defining source, Newton's
Principia, in his concepts of absolute time and space
the aether as a medium would have motion. The two
are quite different ideas.

You have got it quite wrong.

Can I ask you to read parts I, II and IV of the Scholium:

http://members.tripod.com/~gravitee/...ions.htm#Schol

and explain why you think I am wrong.

The fundamental notion of time is absolute
but our measure of time is a relative measure of change.

Certainly, but that is not what I was discussing.

http://www.geocities.com/gurcharn_sa...me_measure.htm
As I explained in the last post, the empty space, aether or vacuum
refer to the one and the same entity, call it by any name.
http://www.geocities.com/gurcharn_sa...her_vacuum.pdf


I have to quit at that, I'm out of time.
George

Kindly do spare a little of your valuable time and study the proposal
for experimental detection of the Universal or absolute reference frame
referred in my last post. I do need your comments and opinion on the
same.

Will do, but having had a quick glance, I can tell
you the method won't work if you are contemplating
a Lorentz invariant aether since that precludes
determination of speed by any means. If you are
thinking of a Galilean universe then it would work
but you need to reconcile that with what are
considered to be contrary observations, such as the
Michelson-Morely experiment. Perhaps it would be best
if you clarified that small point before I go into
any detail.

George