How about an Electroweak star?

This is presumably one stage higher than a black hole, but two stages
lower than a neutron star, and one stage lower than a quark star. I'm
not sure, it's not mentioned in the article if it's lower or higher than
a quark star.

Also not mentioned in the article is what happens to this star after
about 10 million years, when the electroweak burning phase finishes?
Does it turn into a black hole, or does it turn into a neutron star or
quark star?

And how does a quark turn into a lepton? Is that in the Standard Model?
Or is this coming from an interpretation of one of the Superstring or
some other theories? The only thing I know about the Weak force is how
it causes atomic fission.

Yousuf Khan

***
SPACE.com -- New Type of Exotic Star Proposed
"An electroweak star could come into being toward the end of a massive
star's life, after nuclear fusion has stopped in its core, but before
the star collapses into a black hole, the researchers found.

At this point, the temperature and density inside a star could be so
high, subatomic particles called quarks (which are the building blocks
of protons and neutrons) could be converted into lighter particles
called leptons, which include electrons and neutrinos.

"In this process, which we call electroweak burning, huge amounts of
energy can be released," the researchers wrote in the scientific paper.

Unfortunately for observers, much of that energy would be in the form of
neutrinos, which are very light neutral particles that can pass through
ordinary matter without interacting, making them very difficult to detect."
http://www.space.com/scienceastronom...ed-100122.html

Yousuf Khan wrote:

This is presumably one stage higher than a black hole, but two stages
lower than a neutron star, and one stage lower than a quark star. I'm
not sure, it's not mentioned in the article if it's lower or higher than
a quark star.

Quark stars don't exist.


Also not mentioned in the article is what happens to this star after
about 10 million years, when the electroweak burning phase finishes?
Does it turn into a black hole, or does it turn into a neutron star or
quark star?

And how does a quark turn into a lepton? Is that in the Standard Model?

My "conservation law" sense tingles when I read that, however I am closer to
an astrophysicist in education than a particle physicist.

Or is this coming from an interpretation of one of the Superstring or
some other theories? The only thing I know about the Weak force is how
it causes atomic fission.

Yousuf Khan

***
SPACE.com -- New Type of Exotic Star Proposed
"An electroweak star could come into being toward the end of a massive
star's life, after nuclear fusion has stopped in its core, but before
the star collapses into a black hole, the researchers found.

At this point, the temperature and density inside a star could be so
high, subatomic particles called quarks (which are the building blocks
of protons and neutrons) could be converted into lighter particles
called leptons, which include electrons and neutrinos.

0 to bull**** in no seconds flat.

Step by step...

So apparently the hope is that in the core of the star (not gonna be the
surface!), _somehow_ the nuclei get shredded to protons and neutrons. This
is a rather amusing claim if one things about HOW A STAR WORKS for five
goddamn seconds.

A star starts out as a cloud of crap that condenses due to kinetic
interactions and eventually starts to burn hydrogen due to compression
heating from the collapse. This produces helium, and irrelevant **** like
photons and neutrinos in numbers I can't remember. Towards the end of the
star's life it *runs out of hydrogen* (this is important) and starts burning
helium, then lithium, etc all the way up to iron. Now we all know what
happens when the star hits iron - no more star.

But the reason the progression is like this is because it takes more and
more energy to fuse the progressively heavier elements together, and fusion
past iron's atomic mass is an endothermic process. So no more fusion for
profit.

So where is the energy going to come from to shred the nuclei into
constituent parts, then shred the protons and neutrons into quarks (neutrons
too, because this isn't gonna be a phase that lasts long enough for them to
decay!), and by some mystery process i may have simply never heard about,
convert the quarks - before they get slapped with confinement or decay -
decay specifically into electrons and neutrinos?


"In this process, which we call electroweak burning, huge amounts of
energy can be released," the researchers wrote in the scientific paper.

Yeah, because it is energetically profitable to shred heavy elements - which
tend to be more prevalent than light elements at this point - into quarks.

Maybe I misunderstood the concept of binding energy and it does the opposite
of what I've been taught...


Unfortunately for observers, much of that energy would be in the form of
neutrinos, which are very light neutral particles that can pass through
ordinary matter without interacting, making them very difficult to
detect."
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/exotic-star-type-
proposed-100122.html

We have neutrino observatories. SN1987A lit up the sky in more than one way,
but not like this.

File this under 'wishful thinking'.

Yousuf Khan wrote:

This is presumably one stage higher than a black hole, but two stages
lower than a neutron star, and one stage lower than a quark star. I'm
not sure, it's not mentioned in the article if it's lower or higher than
a quark star.

Also not mentioned in the article is what happens to this star after
about 10 million years, when the electroweak burning phase finishes?
Does it turn into a black hole, or does it turn into a neutron star or
quark star?

And how does a quark turn into a lepton? Is that in the Standard Model?
Or is this coming from an interpretation of one of the Superstring or
some other theories? The only thing I know about the Weak force is how
it causes atomic fission.

Yousuf Khan

***
SPACE.com -- New Type of Exotic Star Proposed
"An electroweak star could come into being toward the end of a massive
star's life, after nuclear fusion has stopped in its core, but before
the star collapses into a black hole, the researchers found.

At this point, the temperature and density inside a star could be so
high, subatomic particles called quarks (which are the building blocks
of protons and neutrons) could be converted into lighter particles
called leptons, which include electrons and neutrinos.

"In this process, which we call electroweak burning, huge amounts of
energy can be released," the researchers wrote in the scientific paper.

Unfortunately for observers, much of that energy would be in the form of
neutrinos, which are very light neutral particles that can pass through
ordinary matter without interacting, making them very difficult to detect."
http://www.space.com/scienceastronom...ed-100122.html

1) The thing starts electrically neutral.
2) Name a positively charged lepton that is not an antiparticle.
3) Rationalize the claim while conserving electric charge, lepton
generation number, baryon number, quark color, quark flavor... vs.
pair annihalation and not producing photons as you do it.
4) Is this a pile of extrapolated SUSY manure? Check the link in
the article - yes it is.


--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz4.htm

On 23 Jan, 09:41, Yousuf Khan wrote:
This is presumably one stage higher than a black hole, but two stages
lower than a neutron star, and one stage lower than a quark star. I'm
not sure, it's not mentioned in the article if it's lower or higher than
a quark star.

Also not mentioned in the article is what happens to this star after
about 10 million years, when the electroweak burning phase finishes?
Does it turn into a black hole, or does it turn into a neutron star or
quark star?

And how does a quark turn into a lepton? Is that in the Standard Model?
Or is this coming from an interpretation of one of the Superstring or
some other theories? The only thing I know about the Weak force is how
it causes atomic fission.

* * * * Yousuf Khan

***
SPACE.com -- New Type of Exotic Star Proposed
"An electroweak star could come into being toward the end of a massive
star's life, after nuclear fusion has stopped in its core, but before
the star collapses into a black hole, the researchers found.

At this point, the temperature and density inside a star could be so
high, subatomic particles called quarks (which are the building blocks
of protons and neutrons) could be converted into lighter particles
called leptons, which include electrons and neutrinos.

"In this process, which we call electroweak burning, huge amounts of
energy can be released," the researchers wrote in the scientific paper.

Unfortunately for observers, much of that energy would be in the form of
neutrinos, which are very light neutral particles that can pass through
ordinary matter without interacting, making them very difficult to detect.."http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/exotic-star-type-proposed-10012...

Kahn Last phase for a Sun like star is a White Dwarf. It has about
the size of Earth,but now has a mass density of 100,000 times greater
than it was Sun size. I read it can shine for a trillion years ???
TreBert

On Jan 23, 2:54*pm, Uncle Al wrote:
Yousuf Khan wrote:

This is presumably one stage higher than a black hole, but two stages
lower than a neutron star, and one stage lower than a quark star. I'm
not sure, it's not mentioned in the article if it's lower or higher than
a quark star.

Also not mentioned in the article is what happens to this star after
about 10 million years, when the electroweak burning phase finishes?
Does it turn into a black hole, or does it turn into a neutron star or
quark star?

And how does a quark turn into a lepton? Is that in the Standard Model?
Or is this coming from an interpretation of one of the Superstring or
some other theories? The only thing I know about the Weak force is how
it causes atomic fission.

* * * * Yousuf Khan

***
SPACE.com -- New Type of Exotic Star Proposed
"An electroweak star could come into being toward the end of a massive
star's life, after nuclear fusion has stopped in its core, but before
the star collapses into a black hole, the researchers found.

At this point, the temperature and density inside a star could be so
high, subatomic particles called quarks (which are the building blocks
of protons and neutrons) could be converted into lighter particles
called leptons, which include electrons and neutrinos.

"In this process, which we call electroweak burning, huge amounts of
energy can be released," the researchers wrote in the scientific paper.

Unfortunately for observers, much of that energy would be in the form of
neutrinos, which are very light neutral particles that can pass through
ordinary matter without interacting, making them very difficult to detect."
http://www.space.com/scienceastronom...proposed-10012...

* *1) The thing starts electrically neutral.

"The thing" presumably being a neutron star with a core so dense the
individual nucleons have mooshed into "quagma", yes?

* *2) Name a positively charged lepton that is not an antiparticle.

(And, presumably, starts with no antiquarks.)

* *3) Rationalize the claim while conserving electric charge, lepton
generation number, baryon number, quark color, quark flavor... vs.
pair annihalation and not producing photons as you do it.

For quarks to be converted into other (longer-lived) leptons while
conserving electric charge, they'd have to do so in groups.

Neutrino oscillations moot lepton generation conservation.

Baryon number? You're kidding, right? That crashed when the quagma
began. Think weak isospin.

Quark flavor and color switch with a gluon exchange faster than a
bisexual switches preferences with a spit swap.

No annihilation without available antiquarks.

I've been drawing Feynman diagrams for quark-gluon- lepton decays
in my head the last few minutes and can't seem to make them work.
Anybody?

The remaining problem I have is there seems to be a need for a gluon-
W/Z conversion mechanism. Is there such? Would that be a workaround
for weak isospin conservation?

* *4) Is this a pile of extrapolated SUSY manure? *Check the link in
the article - yes it is.

I saw nothing about SUSY. Cite?


Mark L. Fergerson

bert wrote:
Kahn Last phase for a Sun like star is a White Dwarf. It has about
the size of Earth,but now has a mass density of 100,000 times greater
than it was Sun size. I read it can shine for a trillion years ???
TreBert

A white dwarf is basically just radiating leftover heat away, it's not
producing any new energy like with nuclear fusion; that's how it keeps
"shining". It's now a battery rather than a generator. As the degenerate
matter inside it enters into lower energy states, they radiate the
energy away in the form of photons. It can take trillions of years for
all of the degenerate matter from the deep interior of the white dwarf
all of the way upto the surface to all enter their lowest energy states.

The same goes for neutron stars and quark stars. As all of that type of
degenerate matter shift around inside it, until they all eventually
enter their lowest energy states, it can take trillions of years.

In the case of this electroweak star, they are suggesting that the
conversion of quarks into leptons is what carries away their energy,
rather than through photons. They suggest that this is a phase that can
last only 10 million years before it stops. I assume that means only a
small percentage of quarks can be converted into leptons, probably only
the stuff at the core which is at greatest pressure. When all of this is
finished, I presume that the star is now much lighter as the leptons
carry away not only energy but also mass. At that point the star
probably just becomes a normal neutron or quark star.

Yousuf Khan

Uncle Al wrote:
4) Is this a pile of extrapolated SUSY manure? Check the link in
the article - yes it is.


Well, that's the link that the article writers provided, but that
doesn't necessarily mean that's what the theorists that they are writing
about actually based it on.

But regardless, I suspect you think that this isn't part of the Standard
Model? It's from one of the hypothetical models.

Yousuf Khan

Uncle Al wrote:
1) The thing starts electrically neutral.
2) Name a positively charged lepton that is not an antiparticle.
3) Rationalize the claim while conserving electric charge, lepton
generation number, baryon number, quark color, quark flavor... vs.
pair annihalation and not producing photons as you do it.
4) Is this a pile of extrapolated SUSY manure? Check the link in
the article - yes it is.


There's more detail in this article about the theory behind Electroweak
Stars. The theory is that the temperature & pressure inside the core of
this star is high enough that the Electromagnetic and Weak forces
recombine, and the Strong force ceases to have any meaning. So it
doesn't sound like it's based on SUSY, in this explanation.

Yousuf Khan

***
iTWire - New star class theorized but Electroweak Stars are hard to find
"The January 4, 2010 New Scientist article Exotic stars may mimic big
bang states, “The cores of these stellar corpses can reach the same
density as that of the universe 10-10 seconds after the big bang. At
that point, the distinction between the electromagnetic and weak nuclear
forces breaks down."

"This allows quarks to turn into ghostly particles called neutrinos,
releasing energy that props up the star against further collapse. The
reactions would take place in an apple-sized region in the core weighing
about two Earths.”"
http://www.itwire.com/content/view/30683/1066/1/2/

On Jan 24, 11:20*pm, Yousuf Khan wrote:
Uncle Al wrote:
* *1) The thing starts electrically neutral.
* *2) Name a positively charged lepton that is not an antiparticle.
* *3) Rationalize the claim while conserving electric charge, lepton
generation number, baryon number, quark color, quark flavor... vs.
pair annihalation and not producing photons as you do it.
* *4) Is this a pile of extrapolated SUSY manure? *Check the link in
the article - yes it is.

There's more detail in this article about the theory behind Electroweak
Stars. The theory is that the temperature & pressure inside the core of
this star is high enough that the Electromagnetic and Weak forces
recombine, and the Strong force ceases to have any meaning. So it
doesn't sound like it's based on SUSY, in this explanation.

* * * * Yousuf Khan

***
iTWire - New star class theorized but Electroweak Stars are hard to find
"The January 4, 2010 New Scientist article Exotic stars may mimic big
bang states, The cores of these stellar corpses can reach the same
density as that of the universe 10-10 seconds after the big bang. At
that point, the distinction between the electromagnetic and weak nuclear
forces breaks down."

AHA! So my intuition about force unification was basically correct!

"This allows quarks to turn into ghostly particles called neutrinos,
releasing energy that props up the star against further collapse. The
reactions would take place in an apple-sized region in the core weighing
about two Earths. "http://www.itwire.com/content/view/30683/1066/1/2/

Hrm. AIUI there are a couple of candidate objects; things that look
more or less like neutron stars but are too small and/or too massive?

Life gets ever more interesting. When will we be able to field
neutrino telescopes that can see such sources? What energies and
fluxes of neutrinos should we be looking for? I'd think the sources
would be fairly bright, but rather narrow in energy unless they had
just formed.

What will they look like toward the end of their lives? At some
point the "apple-sized region" will get too small or too cold to
sustain "electroweak burning", but the object could then be too small
to remain a neutron star. Will it "reinflate" to a white dwarf of some
sort?


Mark L. Fergerson

wrote:
Hrm. AIUI there are a couple of candidate objects; things that look
more or less like neutron stars but are too small and/or too massive?

Well, we won't be able to measure the volume of these objects for some
time yet, as they are all just point-like objects to our telescopes still.

The only way we know what the mass of these objects are when they are
orbiting around another object, such as another star or planet.
According this, neutron stars range in mass from 1.35-2.1 solar masses,
from 2.1-3 solar masses we have quark stars, and from 5+ solar masses we
have black holes. So an electroweak star would presumably be between 3-5
solar masses.

Neutron star - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"In general, compact stars of less than 1.44 solar masses, the
Chandrasekhar limit, are white dwarfs; above 2 to 3 solar masses (the
Tolman-Oppenheimer-Volkoff limit), a quark star might be created,
however this is uncertain. Gravitational collapse will always occur on
any compact star over 5 solar masses, inevitably producing a black hole."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutron_star

Life gets ever more interesting. When will we be able to field
neutrino telescopes that can see such sources? What energies and
fluxes of neutrinos should we be looking for? I'd think the sources
would be fairly bright, but rather narrow in energy unless they had
just formed.

My bet is that we may have already seen such a star. The XTE J1650-500
system has a 3.8 solar mass black hole, known currently as the
universe's smallest black hole. At least it is currently classified as a
black hole, anyway. It may be the elusive electroweak star.

SPACE.com -- Smallest Black Hole Found
"The new lightweight record-holder weighs in at about 3.8 times the mass
of our sun and is only 15 miles (24 kilometers) in diameter."
http://www.space.com/scienceastronom...blackhole.html

What will they look like toward the end of their lives? At some
point the "apple-sized region" will get too small or too cold to
sustain "electroweak burning", but the object could then be too small
to remain a neutron star. Will it "reinflate" to a white dwarf of some
sort?


It won't reinflate towards a white dwarf, that's too far up the ladder.
I'd say it would reinflate towards a quark star, or collapse towards a
black hole. The apple-sized core would be taking mass away from the star
as they turn into neutrinos and electrons, so it would be getting
lighter. Either the taking of the mass away from the star would take it
up towards the quark star limit, or the lack of energy production from
this core would take away any last mechanism for keeping it inflated and
it'll collapse into a black hole. So it could be just a delayed black
hole in waiting.

Yousuf Khan