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  #1  
Old August 3rd 03, 09:45 PM
MSu1049321
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**** off, troll
  #2  
Old August 4th 03, 09:19 PM
Brad Guth
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(MSu1049321) wrote in message ...
**** off, troll


Of course since you're so freaking "all knowing", how about running
off some numbers that'll correct some or any of my most recent village
idiot additions to the "Space-Radiation" issues, especially of what
Earth L4 or L5 has to offer.

Here's my latest input and, as far as this vuillage can figure, it's
become somewhat worse off than I thought, at least the Van Allen zone
as representing any significant radiation buffer simply isn't what the
pro-Apollo cults have to say, even though it's a fairly nasty place to
spend any amount of time in a craft as ****-poorly shielded as what
the Apollo missions had to work with.

http://guthvenus.tripod.com/space-radiation.htm

There's been another metric tonne worth of new information I've
learned about the radiation environment at Earth L4/L5, not to mention
the greater risk imposed from secondary (X-Ray) dosage that's
attributed to solar minimum cosmic radiation interacting with the
likes of any shield and/or the lunar surface.

This is where the opposition (that's you) offers intentional
disinformation, as being tossed out like warm and fuzzy flak at my
position, where actually that's what's giving me insight and further
motivation into learning what's more likely the case than not, like
what our atmosphere and of the void or space in between Earth's
atmosphere and 590 km has to offer, like 274,000:1 in reducing
radiation exposure as opposed to the Van Allen zone attributing
another mere 200:1 influx buffer.

Regards, Brad Guth "GUTH Venus"
  #3  
Old August 5th 03, 09:39 PM
Brad Guth
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Jonathan Silverlight wrote in message ...
In message , Jay Windley
writes

"Brad Guth" wrote in message
. com...

| though the substance of the moon itself is what
| subsequently creates secondaries, which are mostly
| of X-Ray class radiation.

That is incorrect. The secondary radiation emitted by the lunar surface
itself under normal conditions is almost immeasurably small, and it is not
generally x-rays.


Minor nitpick, but I wouldn't describe the secondary radiation as
"immeasurably small". It's fairly easily detected by orbiting
spacecraft, and it's been used for remote sensing to measure the
composition of the Moon.


Thanks so much for your feedback, as I'll apply such logic in future
corrections that lunar mass offers a highly preferable shield to that
of aluminum and, I'll even give your name (Jonathan Silverlight) as
credit for such. I've recently imposed another tit for tat that's most
likely as equally in error for regarding Earth L4/L5, in order to
further extrapolate what's at Venus L2 (VL2).

L4/L5 Space Radiation 6^4 Sv/y, 6^3 Sv/y solar minimum, Venus L2?

Some might consider Earth L4 and/or L5 as environments similar to our
moon during full sunlight, though there's a good deal of mass (3.41
g/cc) associated with the moon that's actually of greater density than
aluminum, so much so that the most recent radiation dosage charts
dealing with the amounts of secondary radiation created mostly by the
solar minimum environment that's subjecting such mass to less external
radiation influx than solar maximum, that such interaction had ott to
create somewhat more (not less) X-Ray emissions than of aluminum.

The raw non-shielded 6^3 Sv/y is an extrapolation that I based upon
the charts (con_x_dose1.pdf) provided by NASA, while another reference
of somewhat greater radiation density comes from a TRW Space Data
report. The L4/L5 environment is without Earth shade, without
magnetosphere deflection benefit and it's obviously a 24/7 timeline
that's receiving all there is from our sun as well as from whatever
other galactic sources there are.

What I'd like to learn about is how best to extrapolate and/or
estimate the Venus L2 environment. Venus L2 (VL2) had ott to be at
least somewhat shielded as similar to Earth L2, possibly not all that
much greater dosage since there's greater coverage or shade provided
by the planet itself and of it's extensive atmosphere, though I'd
hardly expect it to be of any linear probability, such as the 1.9:1
ratio of solar influx above that of Earth.

Earth L2 is roughly 6^3 Sv/y (solar maximum), 6^2 Sv/y solar minimum.

As you add shielding you obviously reduce upon the primary influx,
however you soon start increasing upon those secondaries which are
mostly of X-Ray class. Your best defence (besides getting yourself
back on Earth) against secondary radiation is volumes of low density
matter, the less density the better off you'll be with the exception
that such volume may soon become unmanageable unless you're utilizing
the natural space environment itself, such as by way of hiding
yourself sufficiently behind a very big rock, or better yet will be
that of any ice ball that you can at least somewhat control it's
trajectory into going where you want it to go, or to stay, as in the
case of being long-term stationed at any L2 position.

Until I've learned otherwise, I'm considering the possibility that VL2
is worth 9^3 Sv/y (solar maximum), 9^2 Sv/y solar minimum.

One of the reports that I'll be updating and/or entirely replacing is
this page;
http://guthvenus.tripod.com/space-radiation.htm

If you'd like credit for anything you care to offer, I'll certainly
post such credits and even insure that you receive whatever financial
benefits to go along with it. This is a win-win situation for honest
science plus all of humanity, it's morally correct and it's about
getting and sharing truths.

Regards, Brad Guth / IEIS discovery of LIFE on Venus
http://guthvenus.tripod.com
  #4  
Old August 6th 03, 04:32 AM
Brad Guth
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Thanks ever so much to Jonathan Silverlight, for your terrific
feedback, as I'll certainly apply such logic in future corrections,
that's of your essentially correcting the likes of Wizard Jay Windley,
as pertaining to lunar mass offering "almost immeasurably small"
secondary radiation, thus obviously such would be providing a highly
preferable shield element to that of aluminum and, I'll even offer his
name (Jay Windley) as bonafide credit for such insight, unless that's
cutting too much of yourself out of the action.

Unfortunately, I've recently imposed another tit for tat that's most
likely as equally in error for regarding Earth L4/L5, in order to
further extrapolate what's at Venus L2 (VL2), so even though VL2 may
have a roasty/toasty 6^2 Sv/y (solar minimum) worth of primary
radiation to start off with, hells bells, it sounds like if we stop by
the moon for a little of that soil we ott to be able to long-term
tolerate that VL2 environment with hardly 0.1 meter of lunar soil,
after all that's 34.1 g/cm2, or more than 6 times as much as the
overall Apollo mission average and, even though I believe an upper
limit of 274 mrem/day is tolerable for a two year stint, especially if
you've got banked bone marrow as backup. The fact that this amount of
density may not cut it is somehow, by Lord Windley standards,
immaterial as long as we utilize cloned hybrid astronauts such as
those Apollo types.

Come to think of it; If in fact the likes of statements by Jay
Windley are the least bit correct in stipulating that such lunar mass
(3.41 g/cc) offers such immeasurable secondary radiation, then what
the hell have we been waiting for?

Lets get ourselves back onto the moon the very next time we ever
decide to go anywhere, sort of making it a lunar pit-stop, then simply
filling up the cavity or voids between the inner and outer hull with
clumping lunar soil, whereas even though the lunar soil is
considerably more dense than aluminum and in spite of what the laws of
physics have to say, at least according to our Wizard Windley, there's
hardly any measurable secondary radiation to be had.

This remarkable discovery alone had ott to be worth hundreds of
billions and, it'll only cause us to recall and republish millions of
textbooks and research references pertaining to radiation and
subsequent interactions with various densities of mass, thereby
greatly discrediting the merits of hydrogen as being of least X-Ray
generating by way of merely replacing that element with
clumping-moon-dust as becoming the ultimate solution for all future
missions, including benefitting ISS that's tried just about everything
in the book, spending hundreds of millions if not billions at
suppressing their secondary radiation, without all that much luck I
might say.

Talk about the ultimate gold mine of motherload discoveries; whereas
this absolutely bone dry yet clumping-moon-dust has got to be it, the
holy grail of nonreactive matter that's capable of not only shielding
our butts, whereas best of all is being that we don't even have to
create nor launch an once of it from Earth. In fact, having such a
cash of this nifty stuff situated on the moon is almost too good to be
true, as the lunar gravity is but 1/6th that of Earth and, situating
our spacecraft or some robotic lunar soil retriever down onto the
lunar surface ott to be a sure thing (only 10 mrem/day getting
ourselves there is another bonus, being that we now know, according to
Wizard Windley, how to avoid most of the Van Allen zone of death and,
since we've acquired better speed as well as improved radiation
shielding to start off with, plus the fact that we'll not require any
external EVAs, just a portable screw pump tossed onto the surface and
a filling hose) and, getting all that additional mass back off the
lunar surface should also be another snap, after all, we've come a
long ways in fly-by-wire rocketry, as well as in overall thrust
capability as well as reliability. Just looking at the CHALLENGER,
COLUMBIA, even the V-22 Osprey and any number of easier to accomplish
successful aerodynamic adventures and you can't hardly imagine
anything going wrong and, certainly not by the trusty words of our
very own wizard Jay Windley.

If I've gotten something wrong, please do help me out, feel free to
letting me know what's what, as I for one am in total awe of what the
likes of these pro-Apollo wizards have to say, as subsequently nearly
all of our future space travel concerns have been answered in spades.

OK,,, so I'm not entirely convinced, but then I'm still the village
idiot that's seeing all sorts of strange things on the surface of
Venus that supposedly aren't there.

Regards, Brad Guth / IEIS discovery of LIFE on Venus
http://guthvenus.tripod.com
  #5  
Old August 6th 03, 06:40 AM
Jay Windley
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"Brad Guth" wrote in message
om...
|
| Thanks ever so much to Jonathan Silverlight, for your
| terrific feedback, as I'll certainly apply such logic
| in future corrections, that's of your essentially correcting
| the likes of Wizard Jay Windley, as pertaining to lunar mass
| offering "almost immeasurably small" secondary radiation

Translation: I only pay attention to stuff that I already agree with.

As Jonathan noted, and as I agreed, his "correction" was a mere nitpick.
Secondary radiation from the moon is, of course, detectable for imaging and
remote sensing purpose. But it has almost no effect on the human
physiology.

A good analogy might be starlight. It's certainly detectable both by the
naked eye and with our instruments. But you don't put on sunblock to go out
and bask in a starlit night. Nor would your dermatologist be able to detect
any "radiation damage" from starlight.

| I'll even offer his name (Jay Windley) as bonafide credit for
| such insight, unless that's cutting too much of yourself out
| of the action.

Keep my name out of *anything* you write. You've been putting words in my
mouth for days now. I wouldn't trust you to represent my statements
correctly even if you were asked at gunpoint to do it.

| ... at least according to our Wizard Windley, there's
| hardly any measurable secondary radiation to be had.

I never suggested using lunar material as some sort of radiation shielding
because of its supposed lack of secondary emissions. In fact, I quite
clearly stated that the lack of any significant secondary effect was due to
the relative lack of a *primary* effect. The nature of the substance is
largely irrelevant in that case. You take TRW's figures for a very specific
part of the cislunar environment and try to apply it everywhere. That gives
you horribly inflated ideas of ambient radiation, and therefore horribly
wrong guesses about secondary effects.

I went on further to say that during a solar particle event there would
indeed be a great deal of secondary radiation emitted from the lunar surface
material, but it wouldn't be much of a concern because you'd be more worried
about the *primary* radiation which would have a much more deleterious
effect.

| Talk about the ultimate gold mine of motherload discoveries;
| whereas this absolutely bone dry yet clumping-moon-dust has
| got to be it, the holy grail of nonreactive matter ...

I made no such claim. I clearly stated why the secondary emissions from the
lunar surface were not biologically significant. It has nothing to do with
the supposed miraculous properties of the material itself. It has, as
usual, to do entirely with your lack of understanding of the lunar
environment and how much primary radiation we're working with.

| ...according to Wizard Windley

Make up your mind. Am I a "Borg" or a "Wizard"? And do you have any
arguments that *don't* involve name-calling?

| If I've gotten something wrong, please do help me out

Well, to start with you've gotten almost all my statements wrong. Start by
listening to what I say and not merely pretending I said something that
supports your opinion.

--
|
The universe is not required to conform | Jay Windley
to the expectations of the ignorant. | webmaster @ clavius.org

  #6  
Old August 6th 03, 07:27 PM
Jonathan Silverlight
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In message , Jay Windley
writes

"Brad Guth" wrote in message
. com...
|
| Thanks ever so much to Jonathan Silverlight, for your
| terrific feedback, as I'll certainly apply such logic
| in future corrections, that's of your essentially correcting
| the likes of Wizard Jay Windley, as pertaining to lunar mass
| offering "almost immeasurably small" secondary radiation

Translation: I only pay attention to stuff that I already agree with.

As Jonathan noted, and as I agreed, his "correction" was a mere nitpick.
Secondary radiation from the moon is, of course, detectable for imaging and
remote sensing purpose. But it has almost no effect on the human
physiology.

A good analogy might be starlight. It's certainly detectable both by the
naked eye and with our instruments. But you don't put on sunblock to go out
and bask in a starlit night. Nor would your dermatologist be able to detect
any "radiation damage" from starlight.

| I'll even offer his name (Jay Windley) as bonafide credit for
| such insight, unless that's cutting too much of yourself out
| of the action.

Keep my name out of *anything* you write. You've been putting words in my
mouth for days now. I wouldn't trust you to represent my statements
correctly even if you were asked at gunpoint to do it.


And keep my name out too :-) I wasn't supporting you, Brad, in any way.
But I like Jay Windley's starlight analogy and only wish I'd thought of
using it.
--
"Roads in space for rockets to travel....four-dimensional roads, curving with
relativity"
Mail to jsilverlight AT merseia.fsnet.co.uk is welcome.
Or visit Jonathan's Space Site http://www.merseia.fsnet.co.uk
  #7  
Old August 6th 03, 09:07 PM
Jay Windley
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Default BBCi/space forum is moderated by NASA or by their external NASA Borgs


"Jonathan Silverlight" wrote in message
...
|
| And keep my name out too :-) I wasn't supporting you, Brad, in any way.
| But I like Jay Windley's starlight analogy and only wish I'd thought of
| using it.

Not half as much as I wish I'd said it that way in the first place. I keep
forgetting that there are astronomers out there for whom "detectable" and
"measurable" describe noticing practically individual photons. I'm thinking
in the engineer's mode, which is about dosimeters and plutonium, both of
which have figured into my job in the past year. Barring a solar event, a
couple of hours on the lunar surface wearing my dosimeter will rack up a
measurable amount of *primary* radiation, but next to nothing from x-rays
emitted as secondary radiation from the dirt.

Alas, it is too late. Brad has liberally sprinkled his web page with his
typically cutesy references to my name, attaching it to things I never said
and to ideas I don't espouse.

The bottom line is that for things like aluminum spacecraft skins and
naturally occurring rocks, the only time you'll need to pay attention to
secondary radiation is when the primary radiation is strong enough that you
had darn well better pay attention to *it* instead.

--
|
The universe is not required to conform | Jay Windley
to the expectations of the ignorant. | webmaster @ clavius.org

 




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