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Evidence for the existence of God



 
 
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  #1  
Old September 12th 16, 04:29 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Gary Harnagel
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Posts: 659
Default Evidence for the existence of God

People differ in what they consider sufficient evidence for the existence
of God. Some see the beauties of nature as sufficient while those at the
other extreme demand scientifically-rigorous evidence.

In between the extremes are those who accept personal experiences which
cannot be transferred to others except anecdotally. Here are two cases
where two witnesses testify of Jesus.

Start with a 4-year-old girl whose mother is an atheist and whose
father is virtually in agreement with his wife. The girl, who has
had no religious indoctrination, begins having visions of heaven,
which she tries to capture in drawings and paintings.

She continues to have these visions and improves in her artistry,
moving from water colors to acrylics to oil. At age six or seven,
she claims Jesus asks her to paint His portrait, so she tries to
find an acceptable model. After a long search she has found no one.
She prays and says that she can't do what she has been asked. The
very next day there's a knock at the door. Standing there is a
man and the girl says, "It's him!" He says he's a carpenter and
only has three days to pose. The girl sketches him in different
poses and when he's gone, she paints a stunning portrait in oil
in 40 working hours:

https://art-soulworks.com/pages/prin...peace-painting

Her parents were quite bemused by their daughter's activities.
They are now Christians. The girl (Akiane) is now 22 and says
she doesn't belong to any denomination.

But the story doesn't end there. A boy who is almost four has
a burst appendix and had a near-death experience during the
operation. After his recovery, he claimed he sat on Jesus' lap,
saw his great grandfather and saw his sister who didn't have a
name. His mother had had a miscarriage between the birth of his
older living sister and him (which the boy didn't know about).
When asked what Jesus looked like, the boy said he had a brown
beard, brown hair and greenish-bluish eyes. When shown some
conventional pictures of Jesus, the boy said that they didn't
look like Him. Later, when he saw Akiane's painting, he said,
"That's what He looks like."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven_Is_for_Real

So we have two witnesses who didn't know each other and who saw
Jesus and agree on what he looks like. We also have Exhibit A,
the portrait of Jesus. Interestingly, in an interview, the boy
(Colton) said he wouldn't become a minister because there are
a lot of denominations that all teach different things.

Gary
  #2  
Old September 12th 16, 05:10 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Chris L Peterson
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Posts: 10,007
Default Evidence for the existence of God

On Mon, 12 Sep 2016 08:29:00 -0700 (PDT), Gary Harnagel
wrote:

So we have two witnesses who didn't know each other and who saw
Jesus and agree on what he looks like. We also have Exhibit A,
the portrait of Jesus. Interestingly, in an interview, the boy
(Colton) said he wouldn't become a minister because there are
a lot of denominations that all teach different things.


I don't see anything here that even remotely rises to the level of
objective, or even reasonable evidence for the existence of a god. A
girl can paint? A boy thinks he went to heaven? Two people have a
similar idea what Jesus looked like?

A few anecdotal tales are not going to convince anybody. (And I'll
note that there's nothing new here... this kind of silliness is what
apologists have been offering for years, all neatly shot down as
inadequate to demonstrate anything.)

Come on. You said you had real evidence. Something new. Let's have it.
  #3  
Old September 12th 16, 05:40 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Quadibloc
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Posts: 7,018
Default Evidence for the existence of God

On Monday, September 12, 2016 at 10:10:05 AM UTC-6, Chris L Peterson wrote:

I don't see anything here that even remotely rises to the level of
objective, or even reasonable evidence for the existence of a god. A
girl can paint? A boy thinks he went to heaven? Two people have a
similar idea what Jesus looked like?


If it happens that a number of similar anecdotes come up - and in the majority
of those anecdotes, Jesus looks the same, and His appearance is not simply
modeled on a commonly-known portrait - that would indeed be objective evidence,
even if not ironclad.

On the other hand, if there are many similar anecdotes, and in two of them,
Jesus looks the same, yes, that isn't evidence.

John Savard
  #4  
Old September 12th 16, 05:46 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Razzmatazz
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Posts: 265
Default Evidence for the existence of God

On Monday, September 12, 2016 at 10:29:02 AM UTC-5, Gary Harnagel wrote:
People differ in what they consider sufficient evidence for the existence
of God. Some see the beauties of nature as sufficient while those at the
other extreme demand scientifically-rigorous evidence.

In between the extremes are those who accept personal experiences which
cannot be transferred to others except anecdotally. Here are two cases
where two witnesses testify of Jesus.

Start with a 4-year-old girl whose mother is an atheist and whose
father is virtually in agreement with his wife. The girl, who has
had no religious indoctrination, begins having visions of heaven,
which she tries to capture in drawings and paintings.

She continues to have these visions and improves in her artistry,
moving from water colors to acrylics to oil. At age six or seven,
she claims Jesus asks her to paint His portrait, so she tries to
find an acceptable model. After a long search she has found no one.
She prays and says that she can't do what she has been asked. The
very next day there's a knock at the door. Standing there is a
man and the girl says, "It's him!" He says he's a carpenter and
only has three days to pose. The girl sketches him in different
poses and when he's gone, she paints a stunning portrait in oil
in 40 working hours:

https://art-soulworks.com/pages/prin...peace-painting

Her parents were quite bemused by their daughter's activities.
They are now Christians. The girl (Akiane) is now 22 and says
she doesn't belong to any denomination.

But the story doesn't end there. A boy who is almost four has
a burst appendix and had a near-death experience during the
operation. After his recovery, he claimed he sat on Jesus' lap,
saw his great grandfather and saw his sister who didn't have a
name. His mother had had a miscarriage between the birth of his
older living sister and him (which the boy didn't know about).
When asked what Jesus looked like, the boy said he had a brown
beard, brown hair and greenish-bluish eyes. When shown some
conventional pictures of Jesus, the boy said that they didn't
look like Him. Later, when he saw Akiane's painting, he said,
"That's what He looks like."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven_Is_for_Real

So we have two witnesses who didn't know each other and who saw
Jesus and agree on what he looks like. We also have Exhibit A,
the portrait of Jesus. Interestingly, in an interview, the boy
(Colton) said he wouldn't become a minister because there are
a lot of denominations that all teach different things.

Gary


That's a stunning portrait for an 8 year old to have painted. very talented youngster indeed.

For me, images of Jesus have no meaning whatsoever. However, his words are priceless gifts.

Razzy
  #5  
Old September 12th 16, 05:49 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Chris L Peterson
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Posts: 10,007
Default Evidence for the existence of God

On Mon, 12 Sep 2016 09:40:43 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
wrote:

On Monday, September 12, 2016 at 10:10:05 AM UTC-6, Chris L Peterson wrote:

I don't see anything here that even remotely rises to the level of
objective, or even reasonable evidence for the existence of a god. A
girl can paint? A boy thinks he went to heaven? Two people have a
similar idea what Jesus looked like?


If it happens that a number of similar anecdotes come up - and in the majority
of those anecdotes, Jesus looks the same, and His appearance is not simply
modeled on a commonly-known portrait - that would indeed be objective evidence,
even if not ironclad.

On the other hand, if there are many similar anecdotes, and in two of them,
Jesus looks the same, yes, that isn't evidence.


Of course in this case we have only one painting, which looks very
much like a conventional representation of Jesus, and everything else
is people making claims without evidence. This is hearsay of the
lowest quality at this point.
  #6  
Old September 12th 16, 06:28 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Chris L Peterson
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Posts: 10,007
Default Evidence for the existence of God

On Mon, 12 Sep 2016 09:46:04 -0700 (PDT), Razzmatazz
wrote:

For me, images of Jesus have no meaning whatsoever. However, his words are priceless gifts.


Indeed. Priceless.

If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife,
and children,and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he
cannot be my disciple.

He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and
he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

They which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the
resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage.

Whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery
with her already in his heart.

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not
come to destroy, but to fulfil.

God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that
curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that
believeth not shall be damned.

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send
peace, but a sword.

Whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more
abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even
that he hath.

Ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Ye serpents, ye
generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

All things are possible to him that believeth.

  #7  
Old September 12th 16, 07:03 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Razzmatazz
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Posts: 265
Default Evidence for the existence of God

On Monday, September 12, 2016 at 12:28:33 PM UTC-5, Chris L Peterson wrote:
On Mon, 12 Sep 2016 09:46:04 -0700 (PDT), Razzmatazz
wrote:

For me, images of Jesus have no meaning whatsoever. However, his words are priceless gifts.


Indeed. Priceless.

If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife,
and children,and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he
cannot be my disciple.

He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and
he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

They which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the
resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage.

Whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery
with her already in his heart.

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not
come to destroy, but to fulfil.

God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that
curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that
believeth not shall be damned.

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send
peace, but a sword.

Whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more
abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even
that he hath.

Ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Ye serpents, ye
generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

All things are possible to him that believeth.


Thanks for your insight. I have read several books about the historical Jesus who walked the shores of Galilee. Seems that there were many with that name who lived at different times and called themselves healers. Of course there are many seeming contradictions, stories that were gathered up and became part of the legend.

I'm more of a fan of the Sermon on the Mount. The rest of the stories I consider plagiarized, made up or simply the result of fading memories as told by story tellers decades and centuries later.
  #8  
Old September 12th 16, 07:29 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Chris L Peterson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,007
Default Evidence for the existence of God

On Mon, 12 Sep 2016 11:03:49 -0700 (PDT), Razzmatazz
wrote:

Thanks for your insight. I have read several books about the historical Jesus who walked the shores of Galilee. Seems that there were many with that name who lived at different times and called themselves healers. Of course there are many seeming contradictions, stories that were gathered up and became part of the legend.

I'm more of a fan of the Sermon on the Mount. The rest of the stories I consider plagiarized, made up or simply the result of fading memories as told by story tellers decades and centuries later.


In reality, there is good stuff and bad. As I'd expect from anybody
presenting moral ideals. My real objection isn't with the material
itself, but with those who elevate it to "holy". Anything that can
reasonably be attributed to a deity- a vengeful deity that is willing
to punish simple disbelief with eternal pain- cannot be something
which is so open to interpretation, is so ambiguous, is so dependent
upon cherry picking.

Once we elevate the opinions of anybody above criticism, we're in
trouble.
  #9  
Old September 12th 16, 08:24 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Gary Harnagel
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Posts: 659
Default Evidence for the existence of God

On Monday, September 12, 2016 at 10:10:05 AM UTC-6, Chris L Peterson wrote:

On Mon, 12 Sep 2016 08:29:00 -0700 (PDT), Gary Harnagel
wrote:

So we have two witnesses who didn't know each other and who saw
Jesus and agree on what he looks like. We also have Exhibit A,
the portrait of Jesus. Interestingly, in an interview, the boy
(Colton) said he wouldn't become a minister because there are
a lot of denominations that all teach different things.


I don't see anything here that even remotely rises to the level of
objective, or even reasonable evidence for the existence of a god.


Apparently, you weren't paying much attention to what I wrote at the
beginning:

"In between the extremes are those who accept personal experiences which
cannot be transferred to others except anecdotally. Here are two cases
where two witnesses testify of Jesus."

Of course personal experiences aren't "objective, scientific evidence."

A girl can paint? A boy thinks he went to heaven? Two people have a
similar idea what Jesus looked like?

A few anecdotal tales are not going to convince anybody.


You are dead wrong there because these events have convinced millions.

(And I'll note that there's nothing new here... this kind of silliness is
what apologists have been offering for years, all neatly shot down as
inadequate to demonstrate anything.)


I'm afraid I've exposed you to evidence for which you will be held
accountable one day.

Come on. You said you had real evidence. Something new. Let's have it.


You've had it, in more ways than one, I'm afraid.
  #10  
Old September 12th 16, 08:36 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Gary Harnagel
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 659
Default Evidence for the existence of God

On Monday, September 12, 2016 at 10:40:45 AM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:

On Monday, September 12, 2016 at 10:10:05 AM UTC-6, Chris L Peterson wrote:

I don't see anything here that even remotely rises to the level of
objective, or even reasonable evidence for the existence of a god. A
girl can paint? A boy thinks he went to heaven? Two people have a
similar idea what Jesus looked like?


If it happens that a number of similar anecdotes come up - and in the
majority of those anecdotes, Jesus looks the same, and His appearance
is not simply modeled on a commonly-known portrait - that would indeed
be objective evidence, even if not ironclad.

On the other hand, if there are many similar anecdotes, and in two of them,
Jesus looks the same, yes, that isn't evidence.

John Savard


Indeed, and it's way too late to ask all the people who have claimed to
have had near-death experiences. If they say, "Yes, he looked like that,"
one couldn't tell the honest ones from the fakers. What would be convincing
is if more children who had not been exposed to that portrait have NDEs
would then see it and say that that was what he looked like, that would
perhaps meet your criterion of "objective" evidence.
 




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