ASTRO: NGC 7822 - Herschel didn't make a mistake.

NGC 7822 - Ced 215
Cepheus
Penryn, California
September 2007
FCL-90 II (ag, ST-4)
ST-10XME, LRGB, 5 minute subs

A faint emission/SNR type nebula in Cephus is located approximately
1.5 degrees North of Ced 214.
Note - the two bright stars at top center are HD 224825 and HD 225123
(left to right). Image orientation is CCW from the top NESW.

The NGC/IC Project (Project) revised the NGC 7822 coordinates
because of conflicting records by J. Draper and J. Herschel, this in
addition to Roberts mis-identification of Ced 214 (from note in
Cederblad catalog) as NGC 7822 caused the Project to assign NGC 7822
to a spot on the outer edge of Ced214.

The bottom 15'x15' image is from the DSS for the coordinates of NGC
7822 as modified by the Project.

The Project did keep the original size (20' x 4') which more fits
the Herschel's object but seems hard to reconcile to the above object.
The Project also references Ced 214a and 214b which do not appear in
the original Cederblad catalogue. Note - the two bright stars are
(top) HD 224992 and (bottom) HD 225216), image orientation is CCW from
left NESW.

Of real interest is the fact the visual observing report used by the
Project reported visual identifying faint nebula at the original NGC
7822 location but was unable to identify nebulosity in either Ced 214
or the project location for NGC 7822. Herschel saw it, Draper didn't
but cautioned his pointing might not have been accurate and Roberts
used 90 minutes photo plates to detect Ced 214 and didn't even address
the nebula at the Herschel location (Cederblad did use the Robert
plates).

I suspect Draper found two stars that matched something in Herschel's
note/list/whatever and didn't see any nebulostiy so questioned his own
observation.

Go to the following and click on NGC 7822 for the Project's discussion
on changing the location of NGC 7822.
http://ngcicproject.org/dss/dss_n7800.asp

Note the Project indicated the new location was also cataloged as
Ced 215 generating another catalog discrepancy for some future project
to correct. The following are the notes from the original Cederblad
catalog -

214 The nebula surrounding the two stars +66 1676 = HD 224992, and
214 +66 1679 = HD 225216 = Boss 39. R. Erroneously identified as NGC
7822
214 by Roberts in (624). (630 Pl 20).
215 NGC 7822 = GC 5051 = h 2302. R. The coordinates and the
description given
215 by John Herschel must refer to the nebulous cluster containing the
HD
215 stars: +68 1423 = HD 225123, and +67 1588 = HD 224825.
215 Compare (630) Pl 20. (114, 304, 631).

On 7/15/2010 12:07 AM, glen youman wrote:
NGC 7822 - Ced 215
Cepheus
Penryn, California
September 2007
FCL-90 II (ag, ST-4)
ST-10XME, LRGB, 5 minute subs

A faint emission/SNR type nebula in Cephus is located approximately
1.5 degrees North of Ced 214.
Note - the two bright stars at top center are HD 224825 and HD 225123
(left to right). Image orientation is CCW from the top NESW.

The NGC/IC Project (Project) revised the NGC 7822 coordinates
because of conflicting records by J. Draper and J. Herschel, this in
addition to Roberts mis-identification of Ced 214 (from note in
Cederblad catalog) as NGC 7822 caused the Project to assign NGC 7822
to a spot on the outer edge of Ced214.

The bottom 15'x15' image is from the DSS for the coordinates of NGC
7822 as modified by the Project.

The Project did keep the original size (20' x 4') which more fits
the Herschel's object but seems hard to reconcile to the above object.
The Project also references Ced 214a and 214b which do not appear in
the original Cederblad catalogue. Note - the two bright stars are
(top) HD 224992 and (bottom) HD 225216), image orientation is CCW from
left NESW.

Of real interest is the fact the visual observing report used by the
Project reported visual identifying faint nebula at the original NGC
7822 location but was unable to identify nebulosity in either Ced 214
or the project location for NGC 7822. Herschel saw it, Draper didn't
but cautioned his pointing might not have been accurate and Roberts
used 90 minutes photo plates to detect Ced 214 and didn't even address
the nebula at the Herschel location (Cederblad did use the Robert
plates).

I suspect Draper found two stars that matched something in Herschel's
note/list/whatever and didn't see any nebulostiy so questioned his own
observation.

Go to the following and click on NGC 7822 for the Project's discussion
on changing the location of NGC 7822.
http://ngcicproject.org/dss/dss_n7800.asp

Note the Project indicated the new location was also cataloged as
Ced 215 generating another catalog discrepancy for some future project
to correct. The following are the notes from the original Cederblad
catalog -

214 The nebula surrounding the two stars +66 1676 = HD 224992, and
214 +66 1679 = HD 225216 = Boss 39. R. Erroneously identified as NGC
7822
214 by Roberts in (624). (630 Pl 20).
215 NGC 7822 = GC 5051 = h 2302. R. The coordinates and the
description given
215 by John Herschel must refer to the nebulous cluster containing the
HD
215 stars: +68 1423 = HD 225123, and +67 1588 = HD 224825.
215 Compare (630) Pl 20. (114, 304, 631).

I'm having trouble matching it to my LRGB image. I put the star group
you centered on in the NW corner of my image. You LRGB seems to be a
mirror image. I need to flip it. My mind can't do that very well. Not
sure why I get so much stronger nebulosity. Just my usual 40 minutes L
and 20 each color.

Rick

--
Correct domain name is arvig and it is net not com. Prefix is correct.
Third character is a zero rather than a capital "Oh".

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 02:54:48 -0500, Rick Johnson
wrote:

On 7/15/2010 12:07 AM, glen youman wrote:
NGC 7822 - Ced 215
Cepheus
Penryn, California
September 2007
FCL-90 II (ag, ST-4)
ST-10XME, LRGB, 5 minute subs

A faint emission/SNR type nebula in Cephus is located approximately
1.5 degrees North of Ced 214.
Note - the two bright stars at top center are HD 224825 and HD 225123
(left to right). Image orientation is CCW from the top NESW.

The NGC/IC Project (Project) revised the NGC 7822 coordinates
because of conflicting records by J. Draper and J. Herschel, this in
addition to Roberts mis-identification of Ced 214 (from note in
Cederblad catalog) as NGC 7822 caused the Project to assign NGC 7822
to a spot on the outer edge of Ced214.

The bottom 15'x15' image is from the DSS for the coordinates of NGC
7822 as modified by the Project.

The Project did keep the original size (20' x 4') which more fits
the Herschel's object but seems hard to reconcile to the above object.
The Project also references Ced 214a and 214b which do not appear in
the original Cederblad catalogue. Note - the two bright stars are
(top) HD 224992 and (bottom) HD 225216), image orientation is CCW from
left NESW.

Of real interest is the fact the visual observing report used by the
Project reported visual identifying faint nebula at the original NGC
7822 location but was unable to identify nebulosity in either Ced 214
or the project location for NGC 7822. Herschel saw it, Draper didn't
but cautioned his pointing might not have been accurate and Roberts
used 90 minutes photo plates to detect Ced 214 and didn't even address
the nebula at the Herschel location (Cederblad did use the Robert
plates).

I suspect Draper found two stars that matched something in Herschel's
note/list/whatever and didn't see any nebulostiy so questioned his own
observation.

Go to the following and click on NGC 7822 for the Project's discussion
on changing the location of NGC 7822.
http://ngcicproject.org/dss/dss_n7800.asp

Note the Project indicated the new location was also cataloged as
Ced 215 generating another catalog discrepancy for some future project
to correct. The following are the notes from the original Cederblad
catalog -

214 The nebula surrounding the two stars +66 1676 = HD 224992, and
214 +66 1679 = HD 225216 = Boss 39. R. Erroneously identified as NGC
7822
214 by Roberts in (624). (630 Pl 20).
215 NGC 7822 = GC 5051 = h 2302. R. The coordinates and the
description given
215 by John Herschel must refer to the nebulous cluster containing the
HD
215 stars: +68 1423 = HD 225123, and +67 1588 = HD 224825.
215 Compare (630) Pl 20. (114, 304, 631).

I'm having trouble matching it to my LRGB image. I put the star group
you centered on in the NW corner of my image. You LRGB seems to be a
mirror image. I need to flip it. My mind can't do that very well. Not
sure why I get so much stronger nebulosity. Just my usual 40 minutes L
and 20 each color.

Rick
Not sure which image you have - Looks like you're in Ced 214.

Can you post the full image?

Check and match up the star ID's.

also take a look at the project files.

On 7/15/2010 3:24 AM, glen youman wrote:
On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 02:54:48 -0500, Rick
wrote:

On 7/15/2010 12:07 AM, glen youman wrote:
NGC 7822 - Ced 215
Cepheus
Penryn, California
September 2007
FCL-90 II (ag, ST-4)
ST-10XME, LRGB, 5 minute subs

A faint emission/SNR type nebula in Cephus is located approximately
1.5 degrees North of Ced 214.
Note - the two bright stars at top center are HD 224825 and HD 225123
(left to right). Image orientation is CCW from the top NESW.

The NGC/IC Project (Project) revised the NGC 7822 coordinates
because of conflicting records by J. Draper and J. Herschel, this in
addition to Roberts mis-identification of Ced 214 (from note in
Cederblad catalog) as NGC 7822 caused the Project to assign NGC 7822
to a spot on the outer edge of Ced214.

The bottom 15'x15' image is from the DSS for the coordinates of NGC
7822 as modified by the Project.

The Project did keep the original size (20' x 4') which more fits
the Herschel's object but seems hard to reconcile to the above object.
The Project also references Ced 214a and 214b which do not appear in
the original Cederblad catalogue. Note - the two bright stars are
(top) HD 224992 and (bottom) HD 225216), image orientation is CCW from
left NESW.

Of real interest is the fact the visual observing report used by the
Project reported visual identifying faint nebula at the original NGC
7822 location but was unable to identify nebulosity in either Ced 214
or the project location for NGC 7822. Herschel saw it, Draper didn't
but cautioned his pointing might not have been accurate and Roberts
used 90 minutes photo plates to detect Ced 214 and didn't even address
the nebula at the Herschel location (Cederblad did use the Robert
plates).

I suspect Draper found two stars that matched something in Herschel's
note/list/whatever and didn't see any nebulostiy so questioned his own
observation.

Go to the following and click on NGC 7822 for the Project's discussion
on changing the location of NGC 7822.
http://ngcicproject.org/dss/dss_n7800.asp

Note the Project indicated the new location was also cataloged as
Ced 215 generating another catalog discrepancy for some future project
to correct. The following are the notes from the original Cederblad
catalog -

214 The nebula surrounding the two stars +66 1676 = HD 224992, and
214 +66 1679 = HD 225216 = Boss 39. R. Erroneously identified as NGC
7822
214 by Roberts in (624). (630 Pl 20).
215 NGC 7822 = GC 5051 = h 2302. R. The coordinates and the
description given
215 by John Herschel must refer to the nebulous cluster containing the
HD
215 stars: +68 1423 = HD 225123, and +67 1588 = HD 224825.
215 Compare (630) Pl 20. (114, 304, 631).

I'm having trouble matching it to my LRGB image. I put the star group
you centered on in the NW corner of my image. You LRGB seems to be a
mirror image. I need to flip it. My mind can't do that very well. Not
sure why I get so much stronger nebulosity. Just my usual 40 minutes L
and 20 each color.

Rick
Not sure which image you have - Looks like you're in Ced 214.

Can you post the full image?

Check and match up the star ID's.

also take a look at the project files.

That is the full image, that's the problem.

Rick

--
Correct domain name is arvig and it is net not com. Prefix is correct.
Third character is a zero rather than a capital "Oh".

See
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...ed=0CBwQ9QEwAw

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 11:58:13 -0500, Rick Johnson
wrote:

On 7/15/2010 3:24 AM, glen youman wrote:
On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 02:54:48 -0500, Rick
wrote:

On 7/15/2010 12:07 AM, glen youman wrote:
NGC 7822 - Ced 215
Cepheus
Penryn, California
September 2007
FCL-90 II (ag, ST-4)
ST-10XME, LRGB, 5 minute subs

A faint emission/SNR type nebula in Cephus is located approximately
1.5 degrees North of Ced 214.
Note - the two bright stars at top center are HD 224825 and HD 225123
(left to right). Image orientation is CCW from the top NESW.

The NGC/IC Project (Project) revised the NGC 7822 coordinates
because of conflicting records by J. Draper and J. Herschel, this in
addition to Roberts mis-identification of Ced 214 (from note in
Cederblad catalog) as NGC 7822 caused the Project to assign NGC 7822
to a spot on the outer edge of Ced214.

The bottom 15'x15' image is from the DSS for the coordinates of NGC
7822 as modified by the Project.

The Project did keep the original size (20' x 4') which more fits
the Herschel's object but seems hard to reconcile to the above object.
The Project also references Ced 214a and 214b which do not appear in
the original Cederblad catalogue. Note - the two bright stars are
(top) HD 224992 and (bottom) HD 225216), image orientation is CCW from
left NESW.

Of real interest is the fact the visual observing report used by the
Project reported visual identifying faint nebula at the original NGC
7822 location but was unable to identify nebulosity in either Ced 214
or the project location for NGC 7822. Herschel saw it, Draper didn't
but cautioned his pointing might not have been accurate and Roberts
used 90 minutes photo plates to detect Ced 214 and didn't even address
the nebula at the Herschel location (Cederblad did use the Robert
plates).

I suspect Draper found two stars that matched something in Herschel's
note/list/whatever and didn't see any nebulostiy so questioned his own
observation.

Go to the following and click on NGC 7822 for the Project's discussion
on changing the location of NGC 7822.
http://ngcicproject.org/dss/dss_n7800.asp

Note the Project indicated the new location was also cataloged as
Ced 215 generating another catalog discrepancy for some future project
to correct. The following are the notes from the original Cederblad
catalog -

214 The nebula surrounding the two stars +66 1676 = HD 224992, and
214 +66 1679 = HD 225216 = Boss 39. R. Erroneously identified as NGC
7822
214 by Roberts in (624). (630 Pl 20).
215 NGC 7822 = GC 5051 = h 2302. R. The coordinates and the
description given
215 by John Herschel must refer to the nebulous cluster containing the
HD
215 stars: +68 1423 = HD 225123, and +67 1588 = HD 224825.
215 Compare (630) Pl 20. (114, 304, 631).

I'm having trouble matching it to my LRGB image. I put the star group
you centered on in the NW corner of my image. You LRGB seems to be a
mirror image. I need to flip it. My mind can't do that very well. Not
sure why I get so much stronger nebulosity. Just my usual 40 minutes L
and 20 each color.

Rick
Not sure which image you have - Looks like you're in Ced 214.

Can you post the full image?

Check and match up the star ID's.

also take a look at the project files.

That is the full image, that's the problem.

Rick

I was "Lost in Space" Thanks.
Rick

On 7/15/2010 1:22 PM, glen youman wrote:

See
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...ed=0CBwQ9QEwAw

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 11:58:13 -0500, Rick
wrote:

On 7/15/2010 3:24 AM, glen youman wrote:
On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 02:54:48 -0500, Rick
wrote:

On 7/15/2010 12:07 AM, glen youman wrote:
NGC 7822 - Ced 215
Cepheus
Penryn, California
September 2007
FCL-90 II (ag, ST-4)
ST-10XME, LRGB, 5 minute subs

A faint emission/SNR type nebula in Cephus is located approximately
1.5 degrees North of Ced 214.
Note - the two bright stars at top center are HD 224825 and HD 225123
(left to right). Image orientation is CCW from the top NESW.

The NGC/IC Project (Project) revised the NGC 7822 coordinates
because of conflicting records by J. Draper and J. Herschel, this in
addition to Roberts mis-identification of Ced 214 (from note in
Cederblad catalog) as NGC 7822 caused the Project to assign NGC 7822
to a spot on the outer edge of Ced214.

The bottom 15'x15' image is from the DSS for the coordinates of NGC
7822 as modified by the Project.

The Project did keep the original size (20' x 4') which more fits
the Herschel's object but seems hard to reconcile to the above object.
The Project also references Ced 214a and 214b which do not appear in
the original Cederblad catalogue. Note - the two bright stars are
(top) HD 224992 and (bottom) HD 225216), image orientation is CCW from
left NESW.

Of real interest is the fact the visual observing report used by the
Project reported visual identifying faint nebula at the original NGC
7822 location but was unable to identify nebulosity in either Ced 214
or the project location for NGC 7822. Herschel saw it, Draper didn't
but cautioned his pointing might not have been accurate and Roberts
used 90 minutes photo plates to detect Ced 214 and didn't even address
the nebula at the Herschel location (Cederblad did use the Robert
plates).

I suspect Draper found two stars that matched something in Herschel's
note/list/whatever and didn't see any nebulostiy so questioned his own
observation.

Go to the following and click on NGC 7822 for the Project's discussion
on changing the location of NGC 7822.
http://ngcicproject.org/dss/dss_n7800.asp

Note the Project indicated the new location was also cataloged as
Ced 215 generating another catalog discrepancy for some future project
to correct. The following are the notes from the original Cederblad
catalog -

214 The nebula surrounding the two stars +66 1676 = HD 224992, and
214 +66 1679 = HD 225216 = Boss 39. R. Erroneously identified as NGC
7822
214 by Roberts in (624). (630 Pl 20).
215 NGC 7822 = GC 5051 = h 2302. R. The coordinates and the
description given
215 by John Herschel must refer to the nebulous cluster containing the
HD
215 stars: +68 1423 = HD 225123, and +67 1588 = HD 224825.
215 Compare (630) Pl 20. (114, 304, 631).

I'm having trouble matching it to my LRGB image. I put the star group
you centered on in the NW corner of my image. You LRGB seems to be a
mirror image. I need to flip it. My mind can't do that very well. Not
sure why I get so much stronger nebulosity. Just my usual 40 minutes L
and 20 each color.

Rick
Not sure which image you have - Looks like you're in Ced 214.

Can you post the full image?

Check and match up the star ID's.

also take a look at the project files.

That is the full image, that's the problem.

Rick


--
Correct domain name is arvig and it is net not com. Prefix is correct.
Third character is a zero rather than a capital "Oh".

I'm starting to understand why I was so "Lost In Space". I'm not sure I
agree with the NGC project that the issue has been solved.

I use the Poss plates at http://stdatu.stsci.edu/cgi-bin/dss_form/ since
it reproduces them at 1" per pixel same as my system does when binned 2x2.

Using both NED and SIMBAD data bases it gives the area I imaged. If you
go to NED (not good on stuff in our galaxy) it too gives the lower
object. But SIMBAD itself gives your object but puts it's size at 3
degrees so includes the whole area. It also says it is a super nova
remnant. Since many consider NGC7822 as Sh2-171 I checked the Galaxy
Map for that. It is even more confused saying 7822 is a star cluster (I
think) in Ced 214. The Sharpless page by Dean Salman agrees with SIMBAD
that it is the entire region. Though confuses things when his narrow
band image is only the Ced 214 area and rotated 90 degrees from the wide
view of both in his LRGB image.

It's obvious Herschel saw Ced 214 so why isn't it in the NGC? He was
working at his limit of detection. I prefer the idea the whole region
should be the object as it.

Oh yes, The Sky 6's data base shows NOTHING but the little star group in
the northern part. Odd how that group is nearly identical to a smaller
group in the north end of the southern part adding to my confusion.

Rick

On 7/15/2010 1:22 PM, glen youman wrote:

See
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...ed=0CBwQ9QEwAw

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 11:58:13 -0500, Rick
wrote:

On 7/15/2010 3:24 AM, glen youman wrote:
On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 02:54:48 -0500, Rick
wrote:

On 7/15/2010 12:07 AM, glen youman wrote:
NGC 7822 - Ced 215
Cepheus
Penryn, California
September 2007
FCL-90 II (ag, ST-4)
ST-10XME, LRGB, 5 minute subs

A faint emission/SNR type nebula in Cephus is located approximately
1.5 degrees North of Ced 214.
Note - the two bright stars at top center are HD 224825 and HD 225123
(left to right). Image orientation is CCW from the top NESW.

The NGC/IC Project (Project) revised the NGC 7822 coordinates
because of conflicting records by J. Draper and J. Herschel, this in
addition to Roberts mis-identification of Ced 214 (from note in
Cederblad catalog) as NGC 7822 caused the Project to assign NGC 7822
to a spot on the outer edge of Ced214.

The bottom 15'x15' image is from the DSS for the coordinates of NGC
7822 as modified by the Project.

The Project did keep the original size (20' x 4') which more fits
the Herschel's object but seems hard to reconcile to the above object.
The Project also references Ced 214a and 214b which do not appear in
the original Cederblad catalogue. Note - the two bright stars are
(top) HD 224992 and (bottom) HD 225216), image orientation is CCW from
left NESW.

Of real interest is the fact the visual observing report used by the
Project reported visual identifying faint nebula at the original NGC
7822 location but was unable to identify nebulosity in either Ced 214
or the project location for NGC 7822. Herschel saw it, Draper didn't
but cautioned his pointing might not have been accurate and Roberts
used 90 minutes photo plates to detect Ced 214 and didn't even address
the nebula at the Herschel location (Cederblad did use the Robert
plates).

I suspect Draper found two stars that matched something in Herschel's
note/list/whatever and didn't see any nebulostiy so questioned his own
observation.

Go to the following and click on NGC 7822 for the Project's discussion
on changing the location of NGC 7822.
http://ngcicproject.org/dss/dss_n7800.asp

Note the Project indicated the new location was also cataloged as
Ced 215 generating another catalog discrepancy for some future project
to correct. The following are the notes from the original Cederblad
catalog -

214 The nebula surrounding the two stars +66 1676 = HD 224992, and
214 +66 1679 = HD 225216 = Boss 39. R. Erroneously identified as NGC
7822
214 by Roberts in (624). (630 Pl 20).
215 NGC 7822 = GC 5051 = h 2302. R. The coordinates and the
description given
215 by John Herschel must refer to the nebulous cluster containing the
HD
215 stars: +68 1423 = HD 225123, and +67 1588 = HD 224825.
215 Compare (630) Pl 20. (114, 304, 631).

I'm having trouble matching it to my LRGB image. I put the star group
you centered on in the NW corner of my image. You LRGB seems to be a
mirror image. I need to flip it. My mind can't do that very well. Not
sure why I get so much stronger nebulosity. Just my usual 40 minutes L
and 20 each color.

Rick
Not sure which image you have - Looks like you're in Ced 214.

Can you post the full image?

Check and match up the star ID's.

also take a look at the project files.

That is the full image, that's the problem.

Rick


--
Correct domain name is arvig and it is net not com. Prefix is correct.
Third character is a zero rather than a capital "Oh".

Herschel didn't see ced 214, neither did Draper or he wouldn't have
questioned his poiniting. The person doing the project visual
observation did not observe it until he applied filters.

I've looked for Ced 214 in some very fine 22 inch scopes at Peddler
Hill in the high Sierra and could not see any nebulosity.

The interesting thing is Cederblad worked from plates to develope his
catalog just as Sharpless did yet Sharpless did not include 7822
within the boundaries of 171.


On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 18:09:12 -0500, Rick Johnson
wrote:

I'm starting to understand why I was so "Lost In Space". I'm not sure I
agree with the NGC project that the issue has been solved.

I use the Poss plates at http://stdatu.stsci.edu/cgi-bin/dss_form/ since
it reproduces them at 1" per pixel same as my system does when binned 2x2.

Using both NED and SIMBAD data bases it gives the area I imaged. If you
go to NED (not good on stuff in our galaxy) it too gives the lower
object. But SIMBAD itself gives your object but puts it's size at 3
degrees so includes the whole area. It also says it is a super nova
remnant. Since many consider NGC7822 as Sh2-171 I checked the Galaxy
Map for that. It is even more confused saying 7822 is a star cluster (I
think) in Ced 214. The Sharpless page by Dean Salman agrees with SIMBAD
that it is the entire region. Though confuses things when his narrow
band image is only the Ced 214 area and rotated 90 degrees from the wide
view of both in his LRGB image.

It's obvious Herschel saw Ced 214 so why isn't it in the NGC? He was
working at his limit of detection. I prefer the idea the whole region
should be the object as it.

Oh yes, The Sky 6's data base shows NOTHING but the little star group in
the northern part. Odd how that group is nearly identical to a smaller
group in the north end of the southern part adding to my confusion.

Rick

On 7/15/2010 1:22 PM, glen youman wrote:

See
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...ed=0CBwQ9QEwAw

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 11:58:13 -0500, Rick
wrote:

On 7/15/2010 3:24 AM, glen youman wrote:
On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 02:54:48 -0500, Rick
wrote:

On 7/15/2010 12:07 AM, glen youman wrote:
NGC 7822 - Ced 215
Cepheus
Penryn, California
September 2007
FCL-90 II (ag, ST-4)
ST-10XME, LRGB, 5 minute subs

A faint emission/SNR type nebula in Cephus is located approximately
1.5 degrees North of Ced 214.
Note - the two bright stars at top center are HD 224825 and HD 225123
(left to right). Image orientation is CCW from the top NESW.

The NGC/IC Project (Project) revised the NGC 7822 coordinates
because of conflicting records by J. Draper and J. Herschel, this in
addition to Roberts mis-identification of Ced 214 (from note in
Cederblad catalog) as NGC 7822 caused the Project to assign NGC 7822
to a spot on the outer edge of Ced214.

The bottom 15'x15' image is from the DSS for the coordinates of NGC
7822 as modified by the Project.

The Project did keep the original size (20' x 4') which more fits
the Herschel's object but seems hard to reconcile to the above object.
The Project also references Ced 214a and 214b which do not appear in
the original Cederblad catalogue. Note - the two bright stars are
(top) HD 224992 and (bottom) HD 225216), image orientation is CCW from
left NESW.

Of real interest is the fact the visual observing report used by the
Project reported visual identifying faint nebula at the original NGC
7822 location but was unable to identify nebulosity in either Ced 214
or the project location for NGC 7822. Herschel saw it, Draper didn't
but cautioned his pointing might not have been accurate and Roberts
used 90 minutes photo plates to detect Ced 214 and didn't even address
the nebula at the Herschel location (Cederblad did use the Robert
plates).

I suspect Draper found two stars that matched something in Herschel's
note/list/whatever and didn't see any nebulostiy so questioned his own
observation.

Go to the following and click on NGC 7822 for the Project's discussion
on changing the location of NGC 7822.
http://ngcicproject.org/dss/dss_n7800.asp

Note the Project indicated the new location was also cataloged as
Ced 215 generating another catalog discrepancy for some future project
to correct. The following are the notes from the original Cederblad
catalog -

214 The nebula surrounding the two stars +66 1676 = HD 224992, and
214 +66 1679 = HD 225216 = Boss 39. R. Erroneously identified as NGC
7822
214 by Roberts in (624). (630 Pl 20).
215 NGC 7822 = GC 5051 = h 2302. R. The coordinates and the
description given
215 by John Herschel must refer to the nebulous cluster containing the
HD
215 stars: +68 1423 = HD 225123, and +67 1588 = HD 224825.
215 Compare (630) Pl 20. (114, 304, 631).

I'm having trouble matching it to my LRGB image. I put the star group
you centered on in the NW corner of my image. You LRGB seems to be a
mirror image. I need to flip it. My mind can't do that very well. Not
sure why I get so much stronger nebulosity. Just my usual 40 minutes L
and 20 each color.

Rick
Not sure which image you have - Looks like you're in Ced 214.

Can you post the full image?

Check and match up the star ID's.

also take a look at the project files.

That is the full image, that's the problem.

Rick

Ive seen Ced214 in both a 16" and 30" dob. In the 16" it fits
Herschel's description perfectly. I sat only the southeast part that is
brightest in OIII in Salman's narrow band image. In the 30" it was well
defined and some dark areas were seen. We never looked north for the
"real" 7822 so can't say a thing about it. Wish we had.

BTW one of my scariest moments in astronomy was perched atop a 15 foot
ladder on soft ground looking at it in the 30". I hoped the ground was
soft enough. Fortunately, I didn't have to find out. I want a sissor's
lift next time I do that!

Rick



On 7/16/2010 12:37 AM, glen youman wrote:
Herschel didn't see ced 214, neither did Draper or he wouldn't have
questioned his poiniting. The person doing the project visual
observation did not observe it until he applied filters.

I've looked for Ced 214 in some very fine 22 inch scopes at Peddler
Hill in the high Sierra and could not see any nebulosity.

The interesting thing is Cederblad worked from plates to develope his
catalog just as Sharpless did yet Sharpless did not include 7822
within the boundaries of 171.


On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 18:09:12 -0500, Rick
wrote:

I'm starting to understand why I was so "Lost In Space". I'm not sure I
agree with the NGC project that the issue has been solved.

I use the Poss plates at http://stdatu.stsci.edu/cgi-bin/dss_form/ since
it reproduces them at 1" per pixel same as my system does when binned 2x2.

Using both NED and SIMBAD data bases it gives the area I imaged. If you
go to NED (not good on stuff in our galaxy) it too gives the lower
object. But SIMBAD itself gives your object but puts it's size at 3
degrees so includes the whole area. It also says it is a super nova
remnant. Since many consider NGC7822 as Sh2-171 I checked the Galaxy
Map for that. It is even more confused saying 7822 is a star cluster (I
think) in Ced 214. The Sharpless page by Dean Salman agrees with SIMBAD
that it is the entire region. Though confuses things when his narrow
band image is only the Ced 214 area and rotated 90 degrees from the wide
view of both in his LRGB image.

It's obvious Herschel saw Ced 214 so why isn't it in the NGC? He was
working at his limit of detection. I prefer the idea the whole region
should be the object as it.

Oh yes, The Sky 6's data base shows NOTHING but the little star group in
the northern part. Odd how that group is nearly identical to a smaller
group in the north end of the southern part adding to my confusion.

Rick

On 7/15/2010 1:22 PM, glen youman wrote:

See
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...ed=0CBwQ9QEwAw

On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 11:58:13 -0500, Rick
wrote:

On 7/15/2010 3:24 AM, glen youman wrote:
On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 02:54:48 -0500, Rick
wrote:

On 7/15/2010 12:07 AM, glen youman wrote:
NGC 7822 - Ced 215
Cepheus
Penryn, California
September 2007
FCL-90 II (ag, ST-4)
ST-10XME, LRGB, 5 minute subs

A faint emission/SNR type nebula in Cephus is located approximately
1.5 degrees North of Ced 214.
Note - the two bright stars at top center are HD 224825 and HD 225123
(left to right). Image orientation is CCW from the top NESW.

The NGC/IC Project (Project) revised the NGC 7822 coordinates
because of conflicting records by J. Draper and J. Herschel, this in
addition to Roberts mis-identification of Ced 214 (from note in
Cederblad catalog) as NGC 7822 caused the Project to assign NGC 7822
to a spot on the outer edge of Ced214.

The bottom 15'x15' image is from the DSS for the coordinates of NGC
7822 as modified by the Project.

The Project did keep the original size (20' x 4') which more fits
the Herschel's object but seems hard to reconcile to the above object.
The Project also references Ced 214a and 214b which do not appear in
the original Cederblad catalogue. Note - the two bright stars are
(top) HD 224992 and (bottom) HD 225216), image orientation is CCW from
left NESW.

Of real interest is the fact the visual observing report used by the
Project reported visual identifying faint nebula at the original NGC
7822 location but was unable to identify nebulosity in either Ced 214
or the project location for NGC 7822. Herschel saw it, Draper didn't
but cautioned his pointing might not have been accurate and Roberts
used 90 minutes photo plates to detect Ced 214 and didn't even address
the nebula at the Herschel location (Cederblad did use the Robert
plates).

I suspect Draper found two stars that matched something in Herschel's
note/list/whatever and didn't see any nebulostiy so questioned his own
observation.

Go to the following and click on NGC 7822 for the Project's discussion
on changing the location of NGC 7822.
http://ngcicproject.org/dss/dss_n7800.asp

Note the Project indicated the new location was also cataloged as
Ced 215 generating another catalog discrepancy for some future project
to correct. The following are the notes from the original Cederblad
catalog -

214 The nebula surrounding the two stars +66 1676 = HD 224992, and
214 +66 1679 = HD 225216 = Boss 39. R. Erroneously identified as NGC
7822
214 by Roberts in (624). (630 Pl 20).
215 NGC 7822 = GC 5051 = h 2302. R. The coordinates and the
description given
215 by John Herschel must refer to the nebulous cluster containing the
HD
215 stars: +68 1423 = HD 225123, and +67 1588 = HD 224825.
215 Compare (630) Pl 20. (114, 304, 631).

I'm having trouble matching it to my LRGB image. I put the star group
you centered on in the NW corner of my image. You LRGB seems to be a
mirror image. I need to flip it. My mind can't do that very well. Not
sure why I get so much stronger nebulosity. Just my usual 40 minutes L
and 20 each color.

Rick
Not sure which image you have - Looks like you're in Ced 214.

Can you post the full image?

Check and match up the star ID's.

also take a look at the project files.

That is the full image, that's the problem.

Rick


--
Correct domain name is arvig and it is net not com. Prefix is correct.
Third character is a zero rather than a capital "Oh".

Glen,

very nice image and interesting background info.

Stefan

"glen youman" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
NGC 7822 - Ced 215
Cepheus
Penryn, California
September 2007
FCL-90 II (ag, ST-4)
ST-10XME, LRGB, 5 minute subs

A faint emission/SNR type nebula in Cephus is located approximately
1.5 degrees North of Ced 214.
Note - the two bright stars at top center are HD 224825 and HD 225123
(left to right). Image orientation is CCW from the top NESW.

The NGC/IC Project (Project) revised the NGC 7822 coordinates
because of conflicting records by J. Draper and J. Herschel, this in
addition to Roberts mis-identification of Ced 214 (from note in
Cederblad catalog) as NGC 7822 caused the Project to assign NGC 7822
to a spot on the outer edge of Ced214.

The bottom 15'x15' image is from the DSS for the coordinates of NGC
7822 as modified by the Project.

The Project did keep the original size (20' x 4') which more fits
the Herschel's object but seems hard to reconcile to the above object.
The Project also references Ced 214a and 214b which do not appear in
the original Cederblad catalogue. Note - the two bright stars are
(top) HD 224992 and (bottom) HD 225216), image orientation is CCW from
left NESW.

Of real interest is the fact the visual observing report used by the
Project reported visual identifying faint nebula at the original NGC
7822 location but was unable to identify nebulosity in either Ced 214
or the project location for NGC 7822. Herschel saw it, Draper didn't
but cautioned his pointing might not have been accurate and Roberts
used 90 minutes photo plates to detect Ced 214 and didn't even address
the nebula at the Herschel location (Cederblad did use the Robert
plates).

I suspect Draper found two stars that matched something in Herschel's
note/list/whatever and didn't see any nebulostiy so questioned his own
observation.

Go to the following and click on NGC 7822 for the Project's discussion
on changing the location of NGC 7822.
http://ngcicproject.org/dss/dss_n7800.asp

Note the Project indicated the new location was also cataloged as
Ced 215 generating another catalog discrepancy for some future project
to correct. The following are the notes from the original Cederblad
catalog -

214 The nebula surrounding the two stars +66 1676 = HD 224992, and
214 +66 1679 = HD 225216 = Boss 39. R. Erroneously identified as NGC
7822
214 by Roberts in (624). (630 Pl 20).
215 NGC 7822 = GC 5051 = h 2302. R. The coordinates and the
description given
215 by John Herschel must refer to the nebulous cluster containing the
HD
215 stars: +68 1423 = HD 225123, and +67 1588 = HD 224825.
215 Compare (630) Pl 20. (114, 304, 631).