Time from Big Dipper/Polaris positions?

Was recently reading a sci-fi/alternate history tale and stumbled onto
something that caught my attention, as it's always been an "I wonder..."
concept in the back of my brain. Please note that, although it is indeed
a work of fiction, the author has an absolute fetish for "as much
reality as possible within the limits set by my MacGuffin" - Much of his
text is, in fact, devoted to clear explanations (some of which I know
from my own experience to be very accurate, and several others that I
don't have first-hand experience of, but know from reading and other
info-sources to be slightly "dumbed down", but otherwise basically
sound, descriptions) of using "old style" technology.

Here's the relevant passage -

He could just see the north star and the dipper between the leaves of
the two cottonwoods, and he lined them up and did the trick. Draw a line
through, from the north star to the top two stars of the dipper. Treat
that as the hand of a clock. Add an hour for every thirty days after
March 7, double the figure, and subtract it from 24. That gave you the
time. And he made it 0300 hours, give or take.

Now, based on this "trick", I've been trying to get a sensible result,
but so far, having little luck.

I walk outside, locate polaris and the dipper. So far, so good. First
question, though - Where is "twelve o'clock"? I've been going with the
assumption that if I "drop a line" from Polaris to the horizon, where
that line hits the horizon is "six o'clock".

Next question: "The top two stars of the dipper" - OK... Which ones are
"the top"? My assumption so far has been that he means the two I've
always been told are commonly called "the pointers" - A line connecting
them together, then continuing for approximately 6 times the apparent
distance between them ends at Polaris - thus, they "point" at the north
star.

So, with that in mind, I'm looking at the sky, seeing the dipper, seeing
polaris, and the pointers/Polaris form a line that's real close to
pointing at 9-o'clock - Maybe 8:45, maybe 9:15, but reasonably close
enough to 9. So 9+5 (give or take a day or few, 5 30-day periods since
March 7) equals 14. Double that to get 28. 28 from 24 is -4. So it's
"minus 4 o'clock". Uh... Not according to any clock *I've" ever seen...
And besides - my wris****ch says it's just after 11PM.

Where am I going wrong?

Or is the "trick" just a handy fictional device?

(But like I said above, the author is a stickler for reality other than
specific effects of his MacGuffin - there are several things in his text
that are accurate enough for any reasonably intelligent person to use
them as instructions and get good - perhaps not "master craftsman"
level, but "good enough" - results)

--
Security provided by Mssrs Smith and/or Wesson. Brought to you by the letter Q

In article , Don Bruder wrote:

Here's the relevant passage -

He could just see the north star and the dipper between the leaves of
the two cottonwoods, and he lined them up and did the trick. Draw a line
through, from the north star to the top two stars of the dipper. Treat
that as the hand of a clock. Add an hour for every thirty days after
March 7, double the figure, and subtract it from 24. That gave you the
time. And he made it 0300 hours, give or take.

Now, based on this "trick", I've been trying to get a sensible result,
but so far, having little luck.

I walk outside, locate polaris and the dipper. So far, so good. First
question, though - Where is "twelve o'clock"? I've been going with the
assumption that if I "drop a line" from Polaris to the horizon, where
that line hits the horizon is "six o'clock".

Next question: "The top two stars of the dipper" - OK... Which ones are
"the top"? My assumption so far has been that he means the two I've
always been told are commonly called "the pointers" - A line connecting
them together, then continuing for approximately 6 times the apparent
distance between them ends at Polaris - thus, they "point" at the north
star.

So, with that in mind, I'm looking at the sky, seeing the dipper, seeing
polaris, and the pointers/Polaris form a line that's real close to
pointing at 9-o'clock - Maybe 8:45, maybe 9:15, but reasonably close
enough to 9. So 9+5 (give or take a day or few, 5 30-day periods since
March 7) equals 14. Double that to get 28. 28 from 24 is -4. So it's
"minus 4 o'clock". Uh... Not according to any clock *I've" ever seen...
And besides - my wris****ch says it's just after 11PM.

Where am I going wrong?

Or is the "trick" just a handy fictional device?

The instruction was "Add *an hour* for every thirty days after March 7".
If you add five hours to 9:00 you get 2:00 (OK, 1400 hours, but you
already found the problem with that). 24 - 2*2 = 20 = 8:00 PM.

But wait a minute. March 7. April, May, June, July 7. That's four
months, not five. Add four hours to 9:00 and get 1:00. 24 - 2*1 = 22 =
10:00 PM. That's beginning to sound sensible.

--
Kathy Rages

Don Bruder wrote:
Was recently reading a sci-fi/alternate history tale and stumbled onto
something that caught my attention, as it's always been an "I wonder..."
concept in the back of my brain. Please note that, although it is indeed
a work of fiction, the author has an absolute fetish for "as much
reality as possible within the limits set by my MacGuffin" - Much of his
text is, in fact, devoted to clear explanations (some of which I know
from my own experience to be very accurate, and several others that I
don't have first-hand experience of, but know from reading and other
info-sources to be slightly "dumbed down", but otherwise basically
sound, descriptions) of using "old style" technology.

Here's the relevant passage -

He could just see the north star and the dipper between the leaves of
the two cottonwoods, and he lined them up and did the trick. Draw a line
through, from the north star to the top two stars of the dipper. Treat
that as the hand of a clock. Add an hour for every thirty days after
March 7, double the figure, and subtract it from 24. That gave you the
time. And he made it 0300 hours, give or take.

Now, based on this "trick", I've been trying to get a sensible result,
but so far, having little luck.

I walk outside, locate polaris and the dipper. So far, so good. First
question, though - Where is "twelve o'clock"? I've been going with the
assumption that if I "drop a line" from Polaris to the horizon, where
that line hits the horizon is "six o'clock".

Next question: "The top two stars of the dipper" - OK... Which ones are
"the top"? My assumption so far has been that he means the two I've
always been told are commonly called "the pointers" - A line connecting
them together, then continuing for approximately 6 times the apparent
distance between them ends at Polaris - thus, they "point" at the north
star.

So, with that in mind, I'm looking at the sky, seeing the dipper, seeing
polaris, and the pointers/Polaris form a line that's real close to
pointing at 9-o'clock - Maybe 8:45, maybe 9:15, but reasonably close
enough to 9. So 9+5 (give or take a day or few, 5 30-day periods since
March 7) equals 14. Double that to get 28. 28 from 24 is -4. So it's
"minus 4 o'clock". Uh... Not according to any clock *I've" ever seen...
And besides - my wris****ch says it's just after 11PM.

Where am I going wrong?

Or is the "trick" just a handy fictional device?

(But like I said above, the author is a stickler for reality other than
specific effects of his MacGuffin - there are several things in his text
that are accurate enough for any reasonably intelligent person to use
them as instructions and get good - perhaps not "master craftsman"
level, but "good enough" - results)


If you buy a planisphere suitable for your latitude you can work out the
time directly as long as you know the date.


http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...938029/skymaps

In article merica,
() wrote:

In article , Don Bruder wrote:

Here's the relevant passage -

He could just see the north star and the dipper between the leaves of
the two cottonwoods, and he lined them up and did the trick. Draw a line
through, from the north star to the top two stars of the dipper. Treat
that as the hand of a clock. Add an hour for every thirty days after
March 7, double the figure, and subtract it from 24. That gave you the
time. And he made it 0300 hours, give or take.

Now, based on this "trick", I've been trying to get a sensible result,
but so far, having little luck.

I walk outside, locate polaris and the dipper. So far, so good. First
question, though - Where is "twelve o'clock"? I've been going with the
assumption that if I "drop a line" from Polaris to the horizon, where
that line hits the horizon is "six o'clock".

Next question: "The top two stars of the dipper" - OK... Which ones are
"the top"? My assumption so far has been that he means the two I've
always been told are commonly called "the pointers" - A line connecting
them together, then continuing for approximately 6 times the apparent
distance between them ends at Polaris - thus, they "point" at the north
star.

So, with that in mind, I'm looking at the sky, seeing the dipper, seeing
polaris, and the pointers/Polaris form a line that's real close to
pointing at 9-o'clock - Maybe 8:45, maybe 9:15, but reasonably close
enough to 9. So 9+5 (give or take a day or few, 5 30-day periods since
March 7) equals 14. Double that to get 28. 28 from 24 is -4. So it's
"minus 4 o'clock". Uh... Not according to any clock *I've" ever seen...
And besides - my wris****ch says it's just after 11PM.

Where am I going wrong?

Or is the "trick" just a handy fictional device?

The instruction was "Add *an hour* for every thirty days after March 7".
If you add five hours to 9:00 you get 2:00 (OK, 1400 hours, but you
already found the problem with that). 24 - 2*2 = 20 = 8:00 PM.

But wait a minute. March 7. April, May, June, July 7. That's four
months, not five. Add four hours to 9:00 and get 1:00. 24 - 2*1 = 22 =
10:00 PM. That's beginning to sound sensible.

Yep, and as noted in my reply to Palsing, +1 for PDT = 11PM = Well
waddaya know! I was doing the addition and doubling mod 24 instead of
mod 12, so of course things came out wonky.

Ever felt tu stoopid to live? :-P

Ah well - Live-n-screw-up. And hopefully learn from it

--
Security provided by Mssrs Smith and/or Wesson. Brought to you by the letter Q

In article
-septem
ber.org,
Mike Collins wrote:

Don Bruder wrote:
Was recently reading a sci-fi/alternate history tale and stumbled onto
something that caught my attention, as it's always been an "I wonder..."
concept in the back of my brain. Please note that, although it is indeed
a work of fiction, the author has an absolute fetish for "as much
reality as possible within the limits set by my MacGuffin" - Much of his
text is, in fact, devoted to clear explanations (some of which I know
from my own experience to be very accurate, and several others that I
don't have first-hand experience of, but know from reading and other
info-sources to be slightly "dumbed down", but otherwise basically
sound, descriptions) of using "old style" technology.

Here's the relevant passage -

He could just see the north star and the dipper between the leaves of
the two cottonwoods, and he lined them up and did the trick. Draw a line
through, from the north star to the top two stars of the dipper. Treat
that as the hand of a clock. Add an hour for every thirty days after
March 7, double the figure, and subtract it from 24. That gave you the
time. And he made it 0300 hours, give or take.

Now, based on this "trick", I've been trying to get a sensible result,
but so far, having little luck.

I walk outside, locate polaris and the dipper. So far, so good. First
question, though - Where is "twelve o'clock"? I've been going with the
assumption that if I "drop a line" from Polaris to the horizon, where
that line hits the horizon is "six o'clock".

Next question: "The top two stars of the dipper" - OK... Which ones are
"the top"? My assumption so far has been that he means the two I've
always been told are commonly called "the pointers" - A line connecting
them together, then continuing for approximately 6 times the apparent
distance between them ends at Polaris - thus, they "point" at the north
star.

So, with that in mind, I'm looking at the sky, seeing the dipper, seeing
polaris, and the pointers/Polaris form a line that's real close to
pointing at 9-o'clock - Maybe 8:45, maybe 9:15, but reasonably close
enough to 9. So 9+5 (give or take a day or few, 5 30-day periods since
March 7) equals 14. Double that to get 28. 28 from 24 is -4. So it's
"minus 4 o'clock". Uh... Not according to any clock *I've" ever seen...
And besides - my wris****ch says it's just after 11PM.

Where am I going wrong?

Or is the "trick" just a handy fictional device?

(But like I said above, the author is a stickler for reality other than
specific effects of his MacGuffin - there are several things in his text
that are accurate enough for any reasonably intelligent person to use
them as instructions and get good - perhaps not "master craftsman"
level, but "good enough" - results)


If you buy a planisphere suitable for your latitude you can work out the
time directly as long as you know the date.


http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...938029/skymaps

Not interested in buying anything. Just trying to verify the validity of
the "trick". Other replies elsethread figured out where I was going
wrong. Now I've got the knack of it.

--
Security provided by Mssrs Smith and/or Wesson. Brought to you by the letter Q

In 23 hours and 56 minutes and 4 seconds, the earth has rotated exactly
once in relation to the "fixed stars", or from the reference of someone
looking down on the solar system from a distance. However, during that
time the earth has moved somewhat in its orbit around the sun so the sun
isn't in exactly the same place any more. It takes another 4 minutes for
the sun to return to the same spot, a total of exactly 24 hours.