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!!! Black Hole Gravity - speed of gravity



 
 
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  #11  
Old June 17th 04, 05:00 PM
Bill Sheppard
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AAK.. Make that http://www.space.com/scienceastronom...ed_030116.html

  #12  
Old June 17th 04, 06:06 PM
John Zinni
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"Bill Sheppard" wrote in message
...

A bit out of your tree, perhaps. But you're certainly not alone. The
mainstream does not grasp the clear distinction between gravity and
'gravity waves'. The latter should more correctly be defined as _spatial
acoustic pressure waves_ in the fabric of space, analogous to sound
waves in air (jb's protestations notwithstanding).


To any following this thread ...
If you have any inclination of discussing such matters outside of the wild
and wacky world of "alt.astronomy" (read - "with sane people") you would be
best served to disregard BS's (OH, I like that! ... it works on so may
different levels!) fantasies in their entirety.

There is NO longitudinal component to Gravitational Waves.


And these mis-named
'gravity waves' DO propagate at c.

They are _related_ to gravity, and are generated by massive
gravitational events (such as a supernova detonation or a binary BH
coalescence), but they are NOT gravity.
The mainstream's void-space paradigm(VSP) precludes the
understanding of gravity as the FLOW of the spatial medium into a
gravitating mass. Whether the mass is a normal star or a black hole is
irrelevant. The VSP precludes understanding that gravity's influence is
_instantaneous irrespective of distance_ just as Newton originally
observed. And it's instantaneous with or without an intervening event
horizon.
While this may be at odds with the interpretation of GR
on the "speed of gravity", it is a fact.


A fact, is it???


If it's not, and space is a
"void", then we're stuck with "fossil fields", 'virtual gravitons',
virtual photons, angels, imps, and Sky Pixies. oc


  #13  
Old June 17th 04, 06:06 PM
John Zinni
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Posts: n/a
Default

"Bill Sheppard" wrote in message
...

A bit out of your tree, perhaps. But you're certainly not alone. The
mainstream does not grasp the clear distinction between gravity and
'gravity waves'. The latter should more correctly be defined as _spatial
acoustic pressure waves_ in the fabric of space, analogous to sound
waves in air (jb's protestations notwithstanding).


To any following this thread ...
If you have any inclination of discussing such matters outside of the wild
and wacky world of "alt.astronomy" (read - "with sane people") you would be
best served to disregard BS's (OH, I like that! ... it works on so may
different levels!) fantasies in their entirety.

There is NO longitudinal component to Gravitational Waves.


And these mis-named
'gravity waves' DO propagate at c.

They are _related_ to gravity, and are generated by massive
gravitational events (such as a supernova detonation or a binary BH
coalescence), but they are NOT gravity.
The mainstream's void-space paradigm(VSP) precludes the
understanding of gravity as the FLOW of the spatial medium into a
gravitating mass. Whether the mass is a normal star or a black hole is
irrelevant. The VSP precludes understanding that gravity's influence is
_instantaneous irrespective of distance_ just as Newton originally
observed. And it's instantaneous with or without an intervening event
horizon.
While this may be at odds with the interpretation of GR
on the "speed of gravity", it is a fact.


A fact, is it???


If it's not, and space is a
"void", then we're stuck with "fossil fields", 'virtual gravitons',
virtual photons, angels, imps, and Sky Pixies. oc


  #14  
Old June 17th 04, 08:04 PM
Bill Sheppard
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From jb, right on cue:

There is NO longitudinal component to
Gravitational Waves.


...An ad hoc ancillary tacked onto GR to keep it in conformity with the
'no medium' premise. Same with the 'speed of gravity' being c.

A fact, is it???


Yeah. And if it ain't, and space is a
"void", then we're stuck with "fossil fields", 'virtual gravitons',
virtual photons, angels, imps, and Sky Pixies. oc

  #15  
Old June 17th 04, 08:04 PM
Bill Sheppard
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Posts: n/a
Default

From jb, right on cue:

There is NO longitudinal component to
Gravitational Waves.


...An ad hoc ancillary tacked onto GR to keep it in conformity with the
'no medium' premise. Same with the 'speed of gravity' being c.

A fact, is it???


Yeah. And if it ain't, and space is a
"void", then we're stuck with "fossil fields", 'virtual gravitons',
virtual photons, angels, imps, and Sky Pixies. oc

  #16  
Old June 17th 04, 08:48 PM
Aunt Buffy
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Look at me...I'm out on a limb...here goes.

Assuming the earlier comment about a black holes gravity being "past
gravity". Then the gravity up to the point of BH formation would be "same"
after its formation. Any new matter entering(e.g. mercury falling into an
imaginary BH located where SOL is) would, presumably, add to the BH gravity
(when felt by body outside e.g. Earth) until the new matter enters the event
horizon - and then we again talk about time dilation. Just a thought
experiment made literate...ok.

"Bill Sheppard" wrote in message
...

Now how can the black hole, and objects that are supposedly suspended

in almost infinitely slow time on its event horizon,
be at the same time moving and
changing direction in seemingly real time as the black hole moves

through space
on its orbit?

Double-A


And, how come a stellar mass black hole will still express exactly the
same gravity as it did prior to the collapse? That is to say, any
planets orbiting the star will be unaffected in their orbits after the
collapse... how coom ???
oc



  #17  
Old June 17th 04, 08:48 PM
Aunt Buffy
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Posts: n/a
Default

Look at me...I'm out on a limb...here goes.

Assuming the earlier comment about a black holes gravity being "past
gravity". Then the gravity up to the point of BH formation would be "same"
after its formation. Any new matter entering(e.g. mercury falling into an
imaginary BH located where SOL is) would, presumably, add to the BH gravity
(when felt by body outside e.g. Earth) until the new matter enters the event
horizon - and then we again talk about time dilation. Just a thought
experiment made literate...ok.

"Bill Sheppard" wrote in message
...

Now how can the black hole, and objects that are supposedly suspended

in almost infinitely slow time on its event horizon,
be at the same time moving and
changing direction in seemingly real time as the black hole moves

through space
on its orbit?

Double-A


And, how come a stellar mass black hole will still express exactly the
same gravity as it did prior to the collapse? That is to say, any
planets orbiting the star will be unaffected in their orbits after the
collapse... how coom ???
oc



  #18  
Old June 17th 04, 08:54 PM
Aunt Buffy
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Is this a description of 2 universes, in identical locations per particle,
interacting at the lowest level?

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
vvvvvvvv
vvv
v


"Double-A" wrote in message
om...
"Aunt Buffy" wrote in message

...

How can black holes have gravity when nothing can get out because escape
speed is greater than the speed of light?



One answer might be that because gravitons are virtual particles, like
their cousins the virtual photons that mediate the electrostatic
force, they might not be affected by the gravitational field they
create.

The thing that I wonder about is since time slows to a near stop at
the event horizon of a black hole, how is it that the black hole
itself can move through space and change directions as it interacts
with other objects. In many cases black holes are in orbits with
stars or neutron stars. If the companion star is massive, the black
hole must move and change direction constantly as it reacts to its
companion and traces out an elliptical orbit.

Now how can the black hole, and objects that are supposedly suspended
in almost infinitely slow time on its event horizon, be at the same
time moving and changing direction in seemingly real time as the black
hole moves through space on its orbit?

Double-A



  #19  
Old June 17th 04, 08:54 PM
Aunt Buffy
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


Is this a description of 2 universes, in identical locations per particle,
interacting at the lowest level?

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
vvvvvvvv
vvv
v


"Double-A" wrote in message
om...
"Aunt Buffy" wrote in message

...

How can black holes have gravity when nothing can get out because escape
speed is greater than the speed of light?



One answer might be that because gravitons are virtual particles, like
their cousins the virtual photons that mediate the electrostatic
force, they might not be affected by the gravitational field they
create.

The thing that I wonder about is since time slows to a near stop at
the event horizon of a black hole, how is it that the black hole
itself can move through space and change directions as it interacts
with other objects. In many cases black holes are in orbits with
stars or neutron stars. If the companion star is massive, the black
hole must move and change direction constantly as it reacts to its
companion and traces out an elliptical orbit.

Now how can the black hole, and objects that are supposedly suspended
in almost infinitely slow time on its event horizon, be at the same
time moving and changing direction in seemingly real time as the black
hole moves through space on its orbit?

Double-A



  #20  
Old June 18th 04, 04:44 AM
Double-A
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Posts: n/a
Default

"Aunt Buffy" wrote in message news:5xnAc.1608$eX3.1217@newsfe5-win...
Is this a description of 2 universes, in identical locations per particle,
interacting at the lowest level?

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
vvvvvvvv
vvv
v



?????

Double-A
 




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