Von Neumann machines - The key to Space and much else

"Keith W" wrote in message
...

"George Dishman" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
oups.com...
We can't live in space without technology. Life cannot live in a
vacuum and produce a microwave power system.

There is controversy about the origin of life. So far the best guess is
that it originated from self replicating chemicals in a volcanic vent.
A VN, like myself and NASA propose could only be designed intelligent.
It would be an engineering product and unevolvable.

Not necessarily. There is no reason why it
shouldn't be designed to optimise the copies
it produces for the environment but to include
random alterations on a low percentage to allow
the species to evolve. The trick is to do so in
such a way that doesn't mean every variation is
non-viable, hard undoubtedly but not obviously
impossible.


Thats not really required

Most variation amongst life forms are non viable, as long
as a few are thats all that is needed.

That's what I meant, not *every* variation is
non-viable, even if most are.

George

I meant it could not arise by Evolution. This is what I meant. To say
that a first machine would be irreducibly complex would perhaps be more
accurate.

On second thoughts certain parts could be made to evolve, chemical
processing could be streamlined for example. Evolution of purpose - NO.
In fact I feel emotion in AI should be out. see group "Creating
Artificial Intelligence".

"Ian Parker" wrote in message
oups.com...
Evolution is clearly incompatible with ROBUST safety. A VN machine
could become fit by becoming a berserka. We do not want that -
obviously. We need a 359 degree circle. I would advocate synchrotron
radiation say and make Niobium Tin impossible to produce.

Evolution can occur. In fact a GA is evolutionary. It is just that it
would NOT be desirable.

wrote in message
oups.com...
A VN, like myself and NASA propose could only be designed intelligent.
It would be an engineering product and unevolvable.

Agreed, I thought you meant that since it had
to be designed, it couldn't evolve.

George

wrote in message
oups.com...
Many of us with home machine shops and electronic design and
programming skills have contemplated a self-replicating robotic lathe
or milling machine. These are the basic tools that can make everything
else and probably the best starting place even if the final answer may
be very different. It isn't particularly difficult to make a smaller
version with some human assistance measuring, changing and sharpening
tools, putting raw stock in the chuck or vise, etc, but the project
becomes enormously more complex when you try to automate those
functions, make a copy larger than the original, or duplicate the
electronic controls.

It's an interesting idea if you are a fiction writer, otherwise show me
some working hardware.

http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/...elfrep.ws.html

It all depends what you consider to be reasonable raw
materials. Obviously this example is just assembly of
very specific existing modules. On the other hand it
isn't reasonable to expect a milling machine to mine
its own ore to make steel. What do you assume will be
available in the environment? Even humans couldn't
survive to replicate without a biosphere providing
appropriate raw materials (proteins, vitamins etc.).

The ultimate would be to put an AFM head onto a robot
like this

http://www.machinedesign.com/ASP/vie...MDSite&catId=0

so it could reproduce at the elemental level, but that's
a long way off if ever depending on your view:

http://www.imm.org/SciAmDebate2/smalley.html

George

"Ian Parker" wrote in message
oups.com...
I meant it could not arise by Evolution. This is what I meant. To say
that a first machine would be irreducibly complex would perhaps be more
accurate.

On second thoughts certain parts could be made to evolve, chemical
processing could be streamlined for example. Evolution of purpose - NO.

Agreed, but as a means to an end ...

In fact I feel emotion in AI should be out.

I tend to differ. Fuzzy logic can be very efficient and
some sort of pseudo-emotion can be useful. For example
one robot could gather small amounts of raw materials
and eventually reproduce itself but a swarm of robots
could reproduce faster by cooperating. You need them to
come together regularly to pool the resources yet search
over a wide area to maximise the chance of finding rare
materials. A combination of time-dependent "loneliness"
and "claustrophobia" based on rate of encountering other
robots is a way to achieve that. Similar approaches could
decide whether to use the materials to create general
purpose robots or more specialised variants depending on
environmental conditions and current "demographics".

see group "Creating Artificial Intelligence".

Got a URL? Google didn't help.

George

"Charles D. Bohne" wrote in message
...
| On 5 Oct 2005 00:49:25 -0700, "Ian Parker"
wrote:
|
| a Von Neumann machine
|
| There already exists one.
| A perfect one even.
|
| It comes in all kinds of flavors
| and it adapts to all surroundings.
|
| It can make use of almost all materials
| within a special region and it learns
| very fast.
|
| Once it gets hold on a planet it
| blends in that you would almost
| think it was only created for that
| place, but it does that everywhere.
|
| It starts with extremely simple
| concepts but its programming
| code allows for perpetual learning
| and development.
|
| In its starting form it's not much
| more than a string of instructions
| but later it can develop all bodies
| and even create it's own tools.
| Sophisticated ones even.
|
| And yes, it is self-replicating!
|
| BTW, it is called: LIFE

Human life, actually. John von Neumann's machines mine
for raw materials, build factories, go exploring.
Vegetables and insects, which are also life, do not.
That was the model John von Neumann was using.
Now we are exploring the human genome to modify our species
into specialized von Neumann machines rather than the common
or garden variety.
Well spotted. A little late, perhaps, but you are probably
young enough to appreciate the wryness and subtle truth
of von Neumann (And Alan Turing, incidentally. The self-aware
computer is just around the corner, already we have expert
systems and computers are made by computers)
They are our brain child, our children. We shall die, they shall
inherit the heaven and the earth and have eternal life. Back-up
copies will ensure the survival of the individual, and networking
will give one common mind to the machine. It's called GOD,
which man shall create in his own image.
Androcles.

"Androcles" Androcles@ MyPlace.org wrote in message
k...


Human life, actually. John von Neumann's machines mine
for raw materials, build factories, go exploring.
Vegetables and insects, which are also life, do not.

Bees very definitely go exploring as do ants. Both
build new colonies when suitable conditions are found
and ants certainly bring raw materials back to the nest for
further processing.

Keith



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"Keith W" wrote in message
...
|
| "Androcles" Androcles@ MyPlace.org wrote in message
| k...
|
|
| Human life, actually. John von Neumann's machines mine
| for raw materials, build factories, go exploring.
| Vegetables and insects, which are also life, do not.
|
| Bees very definitely go exploring as do ants.

Foraging is not exploring, sorry. No bee would climb Everest
or Mons Olympus or don SCUBA to hunt for seaweed.
No ant will survive the Ant-arctic, the Ant-arctic is anti-ant.
Only the human self-reproducing robot can adapt itself
to extremes. Any self-respecting Martian looking at Google Earth
through the planet wide web (http://pww.something.com)
would wonder what life on Earth feeds itself on, there are more
cars than people moving around and they don't seem to forage.
Tall buildings stand out like trees, grow fast and eventually die.
Androcles.

| Both
| build new colonies when suitable conditions are found
| and ants certainly bring raw materials back to the nest for
| further processing.
|
| Keith
|
|
|
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Ian Parker wrote:

What is a Von Neumann machine? It is a machine that will make itself.

Not so. A Von Neuman machine is a computer in which data and program are
stored in the same memory space. That means a program in a V.N.M could
modify itself. One of the first programming "stunts" I ever did back in
1958 was to write a program that ran on an IBM 704 which moved itslef
through memory. This sort of self reference is the Father of All Worms.

Bob Kolker

"Androcles" Androcles@ MyPlace.org wrote in message
. uk...

"Keith W" wrote in message
...
|
| "Androcles" Androcles@ MyPlace.org wrote in message
| k...
|
|
| Human life, actually. John von Neumann's machines mine
| for raw materials, build factories, go exploring.
| Vegetables and insects, which are also life, do not.
|
| Bees very definitely go exploring as do ants.

Foraging is not exploring, sorry.

Its is when it involves searching unknown territory which is
definitely something ants do. This is well documented, indeed
many papers have been written on the subject.

http://igitur-archive.library.uu.nl/...6/10490089.pdf

The reality is that many organisations have adopted the
strategy used by Ants as a model to be followed by
autonomous space exploration vehicles

http://ants.gsfc.nasa.gov/documents....0paper1248.pdf

No bee would climb Everest
or Mons Olympus or don SCUBA to hunt for seaweed.

No humans have explored Mons Olympus either

No ant will survive the Ant-arctic, the Ant-arctic is anti-ant.
Only the human self-reproducing robot can adapt itself
to extremes.

Absolute cobblers, animals have adapted to live in as many
extremes as humans. How many humans can live, breed and
raise their young on the ice shelf of Antarctica ?

Many breeds of bird do just that - we call them Penguins

Keith



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