Dense fogs in Valles Marineris Mars.

Jan Panteltje wrote in
news:1113774141.643e599ac2bf06f4e47783bf3eec1951@t eranews:

On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2005 16:10:28 +0000 (UTC)) it happened bz
wrote in
39:
The 'black - blue' in this picture is possiby SMOKE hanging *above*
ground and against crater walls!
TELL ME I AM WRONG!
....
Have you rethought your idea?
No, this kind of wind pattern 'smoke' seems possible to me.
Light a match, somewhere where there is even a little air flow, and blow
it out.
Watch the patterns.
What do you think?

I think you need to google on
smoke plume seen from space
and look at some of the smoke plumes.
You will find that the plumes get wider and less dense as they proceed away
from the source. They tend to point in the same direction.
http://www.fire.uni-freiburg.de/phot...smokeplume.htm

You do NOT see multiple plumes going in different dirctions from the same
source.

You DO see the shadow of the plume on the ground, when the plume is sharply
defined.

The patterns in those Mars pictures are clearly unlike any smoke plumes I
have ever seen.

--
bz

please pardon my infinite ignorance, the set-of-things-I-do-not-know is an
infinite set.

remove ch100-5 to avoid spam trap


--
bz

please pardon my infinite ignorance, the set-of-things-I-do-not-know is an
infinite set.

remove ch100-5 to avoid spam trap

On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2005 22:57:59 +0000 (UTC)) it happened Jarmo
Korteniemi wrote in :

In alt.sci.planetary 1113774157.bd28bb5c7cc5c667043fd201e6b22da0@teran ews stated that:
Well one argument was your own, and that is what make me look actually:
You somewhere stated in the discussion with Mitchel:
'But there is no black on the ground (rovers) but seen from the air there
is.'

0)
Jan, what's your take on the colors of the eastern-most dark spot
resembling the Reull dark deposits? Don't say you're no geologist,
because this has nothing to do with geology, just the color scheme
of things, and you do know about colors, I've learned that much
Not exactly sure what you mean here, what picture URL are you now
referring to?
That one I had on the ftp site
ftp://panteltje.com/pub/mars/lake-on...tail-gamma.jpg
I think green is really green.
On the other side (the one you and Mitchell were talking about), I have
made a screen shot of that with some extra gamma to bring out contrast in
the dark areas:
ftp://panteltje.com/pub/mars/lake2color.jpg (browser)
ftp://panteltje.com/pub/mars/lake2color.ppm (viewer)

I see it is very structured, so here is a bit closer:
ftp://panteltje.com/pub/mars/lake2colordetail.jpg (browser)
ftp://panteltje.com/pub/mars/lake2colordetail.ppm (viewer)

I see green, green + blue: I'd say plants!
Somebody will disagree...
What do YOU think after looking at that?
I think we agree that is is no camera artefact?

1)
Agree with that.


2)
How come the "smoke" stays exactly the same in several images? Just go to
http://www.msss.com/moc_gallery and look at the images taken over time.
(Gusev is the big crater in the right-hand side of MC-23 quadrangle, on
the right, when you click on any of the narrow angle image releases and
see the map).
MC-23??? what exact url?
Cannot find it..

Well, what I refer to as 'smoke' is the stuff coming out of (or from) those
craters, the black area on the ground could of cause also have been colored
over time by that *possibly* volcanic exhaust.
Did you even burn an oil lamp too hight? The whole place gets a layer of
black stuff.

You'll notice when you look at the image, that there are two or three
dominating directions for the streaks: SE, E, and a minor one E-NE.
Now, if I am not mistaking, getting three distinct directions for
smoke, or anything suspended in air and being transprted in wind,
is almost near to impossible. Wind carries stuff to the direction
Your argument 'dust devil'; and you know these are circular.
Then when circular winds exists, they put smoke different ways.
Nothing special, it happens here too, within minutes .. it is called
'variable' winds in the weather report.
I can see it on the flags here, these may point 90 degrees difference
within seconds, there is a 'whirl' in the smoke patters.
The other interesting technical thing is what happens when a 'line camera'
measures smoke in wind, it took something like 60 seconds to 'scan'
the area.... Have to think about that.
A 'line type' camera (what they call 'push broom' does not just simply take
a 1/1000 shutter speed snapshot, but as it say moves north, and at the same
time the smoke moves north west / north it sees a double or distorted
pattern perhaps?


where it is going, period. If the stuff is diffusable, like smoke,
it is diffused due to turbulence, etc, but you do not get several
long horizontal distinct "branches" of matter.
Atmosphere is much thinner on mars, electrostatic effects, matches
do the same on earth (I have tried a few now).


If it were smoke in the air, this would have had to have been a
BIG short burst. The dark stuff is covering a clear area with
rather sharp boundaries (sharp meaning something in the scale of
kilometers). If there was long-lasting output, the area would be
more diffuse, because the wind direction is not prevailing
exactly over time, anywhere. Also, if the burst were long, there
would be a diffuse tail towards the average wind direction.
It think there sort of is, maybe stuff condenses suddenly at some
distance when temp drops (after leaving volcanic vents) and then drops.
That does not explain why the black is only on one side... just trying
to find an explanation.

And, if the burst wasn't that strong, how would you get the
apparently large contrast between the smoke-free and darker
smoking-zones?
It is most of the time there.. in my view, so this does not apply?

Oh, and why would there be volcanic vents in the area, which
just happen to look exactly like impact craters?
There are impact craters everywhere it seems.
So the probability of impact craters near a volcanic vent is 100% :-)

And WHY, if it was just DUST, would those 'streaks' all have their
point of origin in a crater?

Because that's where the dust is coming from. Craters are sinks for
deposits, and these deposits are now being re-deposited by wind.
Ah, but now you agree they ORIGINATE in a crater.


Somebody said in this thread (con't remember who it was) that
the color is different when you go jsut a few cm below the surface,
due to soil interaction with the atmosphere. So, when you have good
wind conditions (a depression and a strong wind, some other factors,
which I know nothing about since I'm no meteorologist), the wind
starts picking stuff up from the surface. This area just happens to
be one of those, nothing spectacular when you think about the
process, but the result is cool-looking.


A crater has a rim, and it would have to first go upwards to get over the
rim. And it would be EXHAUSTED after a while.

If you have a cubic meter of stuff, and blow the top 1 cm off, you create
a streak originating from that cube. You still have a lot to blow after
that. And a) if the dark stuff is underneath the upper brighter layer, it
is in practice infinite, or atleast a veeeeeeeeeeeeeery large source for
the streaks, b) if it's a pile of dust, maybe some small dunes trapped
in the crater, there is still several tons of that matter there. It'll
take a while for wind to exhaust this source too.
I have this feeling that you really do not belive that hypothesis yourself?
Unless dust-devils have a way to pick out craters, descend in these,
and suck up dust to over the rim, then release it with the wind in ONE WAY?


There can only be so much in a crater, and after all those billions of years...
And as to the argument 'originating from a nearby volcano', then why did that
volcano not deposit in the IMPACT craters at the same location?

? First of all, I'm not saying it IS volcanic matter. Could be some
other mineral or subsurface layer being exhumed, or something. But,
while on the subject, it seems that much of the darker stuff on Mars
can be associated with volcanic centers, and has been proposed to be
of pyroclastic origin. And remember, if it's volcanic, it doesn't
have to be erupted lately.
Great.

What I meant was, that getting darker stuff in the region is not a
problem, since there's a volcano nearby. But there is about a thousand
other ways to get the darker stuff there also.

Now, to your question:
Those _are_ impact craters. For the sake of being clear and to avoid
confusion, let's call impact craters just craters and volcanic vents
just vents, okay?
Sure.
But I am not sure that those smoke emitting ones are impact craters,
and even then it is possible they are vents, no exclusion principle
at work, why should that be?

Now, if you look at the whole HSRC image up-close, you'll see that
there are several craters which have dark deposits in them at least
to the north-west of the dark region. Also the larger more pristine
craters inside Gusev have _brighter_, larger wind streaks associated
with them, directed to the SW. When you get closer to the dark area
itself, the amount of black matter inside craters increases, and at
some point you see the first dark SE streaks appear. Then they become
a few, and then a whole lot.
Yes

Looking at these factors, I'd say that the area has a prevaling wind
direction at some time (summer? winter? I dunno) to the SW. At that
One would think so, but I dunno...

time there is a strong wind blowing towards SW, and blowing the brighter
overlaying material away, creating the bright streaks. As the season
changes, the dust devils appear. They travel mostly towards SE, and
when going through a crater they a) redistribute the bright
material just as any small tornado does, exposing the underlying
dark stuff and possibly b) move the underying dark material a bit
along their track. A would probably be required, b is optional.

Winds are nothing strange on Mars, and they move stuff, this has
been proven.

Man, I have to learn to write shorter...
No, very interesting.
From a scientific point of view of cause I cannot sit here and 'prove'
that is 'volcano smoke'...
Of cause I could be wrong.
But I do not see anything coming from those craters in the other picture
in your link above?
So, in your explanation dust devils pick out craters, at the same time,
in the same area, and pull up dust over the rim, then release it with
the higher altitude winds mainly in one direction?
Not sure, but I am not convinced at all of that theory, not on any of
those points.
Dust devils happening at the same time: I think not.

Now what do I know ...

On a sunny day (Mon, 18 Apr 2005 07:03:15 +0000 (UTC)) it happened bz
wrote in
39:

Jan Panteltje wrote in
news:1113774141.643e599ac2bf06f4e47783bf3eec1951@ teranews:

On a sunny day (Sun, 17 Apr 2005 16:10:28 +0000 (UTC)) it happened bz
wrote in
39:
The 'black - blue' in this picture is possiby SMOKE hanging *above*
ground and against crater walls!
TELL ME I AM WRONG!
...
Have you rethought your idea?
No, this kind of wind pattern 'smoke' seems possible to me.
Light a match, somewhere where there is even a little air flow, and blow
it out.
Watch the patterns.
What do you think?

I think you need to google on
smoke plume seen from space
and look at some of the smoke plumes.
You will find that the plumes get wider and less dense as they proceed away
from the source. They tend to point in the same direction.
http://www.fire.uni-freiburg.de/phot...smokeplume.htm
They do actually, wind may go any ways too, I have seen that here.
Watch a chimney.

You do NOT see multiple plumes going in different dirctions from the same
source.
ditto.


You DO see the shadow of the plume on the ground, when the plume is sharply
defined.
That is a good point you have, I dunno... Mybe too high up and the shadow
will be dispersed, simply not visible.

The patterns in those Mars pictures are clearly unlike any smoke plumes I
have ever seen.
OK, but how many would that be.....
In winter I can see smoke plumes here all day if I look at the other houses.
The atmosphere is very much thinner on mars, so 'smoke' will likely
stay together longer? (just an idea not tested)?

I'm not sure what "seems impossible to you" means. Just because you
find something unlikely hardly makes it impossible. The patterns you
are seeing are not plumes of smoke flowing from volcanic vents. If want
to find out what that sort of thing looks like from space, there are
plenty of Space Shuttle images of erupting volcanoes.

RM

Jan Panteltje wrote:


Have you rethought your idea?
No, this kind of wind pattern 'smoke' seems possible to me.
Light a match, somewhere where there is even a little air flow, and
blow
it out.
Watch the patterns.
What do you think?