Military Space Plane = Space life boat?

"Peter Skelton" wrote in message
...

Foam is more necessary to control pressure in the tank than to
prevent external icing.


Peter Skelton

Evidence of that? LH2 and LOX is cold. Note all the ice falling off of the
Saturn V at launch.



--
Greg Moore
Ask me about lily, an RPI based CMC.

On Nov 22, 7:04 pm, "Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)"
wrote:
"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in ...



Well Danelda, make it T-30min, the Engineers Union prevents me
from disclosing details, OT, but I think I'll peel a banana for lunch.
The solution is a win-win, we eliminate the source of the problem,
and by so doing substatially increase the payload by the weight
of the foam.
Ken

And then have the tank fail due to atmospheric heating on the way up.

And of course you'll want to avoid the ICE that will build up in the 30
minutes between the time you remove it and the launch.

Oh, and if you don't launch, then what?

Me, I'll stick with the current system.

Ok, but I think you underestimate American Ingenuity,
unlike you people, we are great engineers.
Ken

Ken S. Tucker wrote:
On Nov 22, 7:04 pm, "Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)"
wrote:
"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in ...



Well Danelda, make it T-30min, the Engineers Union prevents me
from disclosing details, OT, but I think I'll peel a banana for lunch.
The solution is a win-win, we eliminate the source of the problem,
and by so doing substatially increase the payload by the weight
of the foam.
Ken
And then have the tank fail due to atmospheric heating on the way up.

And of course you'll want to avoid the ICE that will build up in the 30
minutes between the time you remove it and the launch.

Oh, and if you don't launch, then what?

Me, I'll stick with the current system.

Ok, but I think you underestimate American Ingenuity,
unlike you people, we are great engineers.
Ken

I thought you were Canadian.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

On Nov 22, 8:55 pm, Dan wrote:
Ken S. Tucker wrote:
On Nov 22, 7:04 pm, "Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)"
wrote:
"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in ...

Well Danelda, make it T-30min, the Engineers Union prevents me
from disclosing details, OT, but I think I'll peel a banana for lunch.
The solution is a win-win, we eliminate the source of the problem,
and by so doing substatially increase the payload by the weight
of the foam.
Ken
And then have the tank fail due to atmospheric heating on the way up.

And of course you'll want to avoid the ICE that will build up in the 30
minutes between the time you remove it and the launch.

Oh, and if you don't launch, then what?

Me, I'll stick with the current system.

Ok, but I think you underestimate American Ingenuity,
unlike you people, we are great engineers.
Ken

I thought you were Canadian.

LOL, I understand most good US engineers are Canucks!
Ken

Ken S. Tucker wrote:
On Nov 22, 8:55 pm, Dan wrote:
Ken S. Tucker wrote:
On Nov 22, 7:04 pm, "Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)"
wrote:
"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in ...
Well Danelda, make it T-30min, the Engineers Union prevents me
from disclosing details, OT, but I think I'll peel a banana for lunch.
The solution is a win-win, we eliminate the source of the problem,
and by so doing substatially increase the payload by the weight
of the foam.
Ken
And then have the tank fail due to atmospheric heating on the way up.
And of course you'll want to avoid the ICE that will build up in the 30
minutes between the time you remove it and the launch.
Oh, and if you don't launch, then what?
Me, I'll stick with the current system.
Ok, but I think you underestimate American Ingenuity,
unlike you people, we are great engineers.
Ken
I thought you were Canadian.

LOL, I understand most good US engineers are Canucks!
Ken


That may be true, but what has that to do with you?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

On Nov 22, 10:02*pm, "Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)"
wrote:
As opposed to taking parachutes and pyros used only for landing. *Thankfully
the Russians and Soviets never had any issues with either of those.

"bob haller safety advocate" wrote in ...

oh yeah take WINGS on a mission with no where to use them but a
landing strip on the earth,

I hope the parachute remark was in jest, Komarov would disagree.

On Sun, 22 Nov 2009 22:07:29 -0500, "Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)"
wrote:

"Peter Skelton" wrote in message
.. .

Foam is more necessary to control pressure in the tank than to
prevent external icing.


Peter Skelton

Evidence of that? LH2 and LOX is cold. Note all the ice falling off of the
Saturn V at launch.

Pardon me for expressing the utterly obvious. Warming adds
pressure to a LOX tank, there's a balance between structural
weight and insulation. I'm assuming they got their sums right.


Peter Skelton

Peter Skelton wrote:

Pardon me for expressing the utterly obvious. Warming adds
pressure to a LOX tank, there's a balance between structural
weight and insulation. I'm assuming they got their sums right.

If the ET were to somehow lose all its insulation just before launch,
wouldn't the rapid pumping of fuel out of the ET once main engines are
running mitugate any problems with too much pressure in tank due to heat
allowed into the tank ?

Also, considering how quickly the shuttle gets out of dense atmosphere,
how long would heating of ET due to friction be of any concern ?


And between the time when insulation is removed and the time the ET is
above clouds/humidity, how thick would ice be on the ET ? just frost, or
serious thikness of ice that could damage the orbiter ? (or would ice
just not form due to speed of travel ?)

On Nov 23, 4:24 am, Peter Skelton wrote:
On Sun, 22 Nov 2009 22:07:29 -0500, "Greg D. Moore \(Strider\)"

wrote:
"Peter Skelton" wrote in message
.. .

Foam is more necessary to control pressure in the tank than to
prevent external icing.

Peter Skelton

Evidence of that? LH2 and LOX is cold. Note all the ice falling off of the
Saturn V at launch.

Pardon me for expressing the utterly obvious. Warming adds
pressure to a LOX tank, there's a balance between structural
weight and insulation. I'm assuming they got their sums right.
Peter Skelton

Yeah, see the vapor pouring out of the SV, it's pressure relief
and is continually topped up while on the pad. At launch a
whole bunch of pipes and wires disconnect.
Ken

On Nov 23, 8:31*am, John Doe wrote:
Peter Skelton wrote:
Pardon me for expressing the utterly obvious. Warming adds
pressure to a LOX tank, there's a balance between structural
weight and insulation. I'm assuming they got their sums right.

If the ET were to somehow lose all its insulation just before launch,
wouldn't the rapid pumping of fuel out of the ET once main engines are
running mitugate any problems with too much pressure in tank due to heat
allowed into the tank ?

Also, considering how quickly the shuttle gets out of dense atmosphere,
how long would heating of ET due to friction be of any concern ?

And between the time when insulation is removed and the time the ET is
above clouds/humidity, how thick would ice be on the ET ? just frost, or
*serious thikness of ice that could damage the orbiter ? (or would ice
just not form due to speed of travel ?)

This is Florida where high humidity and a location surrounded by
bodies of water named Bald Pate Creek, Gator Hole, Broadaxe Creek,
Pepper Flats and Pintail Creek. Frost is going to form on that tank
without the insulation. Lots of frost.