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Launched into orbit before 1950
Here is an odd thing I remember reading somewhere and can not find
again. During the high altitude testing at White Sands with V-2s , there was an experiment creating 'Artificial Meteors'(I am not sure what was meant by this) by launching rifle grenades at or near apogee. I seem to remember reading that one of the researchers at White Sands speculated that some shrapnel from this experiment given a fluke direction and motion could have temporarily gone into orbit about the earth. (Of course there would have been no way of proving it.) Anybody remember this? (This could of happened as early as 10 years before Sputnik.) |
#2
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Launched into orbit before 1950
On Oct 3, 3:06 pm, Al wrote:
Here is an odd thing I remember reading somewhere and can not find again. During the high altitude testing at White Sands with V-2s , there was an experiment creating 'Artificial Meteors'(I am not sure what was meant by this) by launching rifle grenades at or near apogee. I seem to remember reading that one of the researchers at White Sands speculated that some shrapnel from this experiment given a fluke direction and motion could have temporarily gone into orbit about the earth. (Of course there would have been no way of proving it.) Anybody remember this? (This could of happened as early as 10 years before Sputnik.) http://www.project1947.com/gfb/gfbchron.html 17 December 1946 Zwicky has recruited many professional and amateur astronomers and meteor observers to help track the flight of the missile; they are positioned at sites all over New Mexico and into Arizona. Over 30 cameras are installed within a 20-mile radius of the launch site, including an 8-inch Schmidt telescope shipped from Mt Palomar, California. Other cameras are carried aloft in aircraft to assist in triangulation of the rocket's path. In addition, astronomers Vesto M Slipher, of the Lowell Observatory at Flagstaff, Arizona; Edwin F Carpenter, at Kitt Peak, Arizona; and Lincoln LaPaz (a noted authority on meteors) at Albuquerque, are primed to track the test. The 18-inch Schmidt telescope hundreds of miles away at Mt Palomar is trained on the sky over White Sands as well, but poor weather obstructs its view. V-2 number 17 is launched at 10:12 PM MDT on a vertical trajectory, aimed for maximum altitude. Its engine burns for 70 seconds, longer than any other V-2 in the entire US flight test program, and a peak velocity of over 5,400 feet per second (nearly 3,700 mph) is achieved. The rocket streaks to an altitude of some 116 miles before exploding. Ground observers as far away as Arizona are able to easily track the rocket's exhaust, and even after the engine runs out of fuel, its glowing nozzle components are clearly visible as it soars into space. Unfortunately, the artificial meteors are never seen; the conclusion is that the grenades may not have fired. Zwicky is determined to pursue the experiments and has ambitious plans to launch similar shaped-charge artificial meteors from multistage rockets, balloons, artillery pieces, and aircraft. He is obstructed, however, by Harvard astronomer Fred Whipple, an influential member of rocket science committees, who reverses his earlier support for the project and now steadfastly refuses to allow further such experimentation on the grounds that the technology is immature and unreliable. Whipple unaccountably accuses Zwicky of misuse of public property and threatens to sue him. Zwicky will only be permitted to conduct another similar experiment in October 1957, but he remains angry about Whipple's obstructionism for decades. On December 11-12, 1950, Whipple heads a White Sands upper-atmosphere research project called "T-Day" in which launches of four Army Signal Corps Aerobee sounding rockets equipped with grenade charges are conducted in parallel with Signal Corps high-altitude balloon flights and a night launch of the large Navy Viking VI rocket, all timed to coincide with the maximum of the Geminid meteor shower. Zwicky is excluded from the event. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I would suggest that a rocket that has a maximum velocity of 3,700 MPH has AbZero ability to place anything into a 17,500 MPH orbit. Andre |
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Launched into orbit before 1950
On Oct 3, 12:06 pm, Al wrote:
Here is an odd thing I remember reading somewhere and can not find again. During the high altitude testing at White Sands with V-2s , there was an experiment creating 'Artificial Meteors'(I am not sure what was meant by this) by launching rifle grenades at or near apogee. I seem to remember reading that one of the researchers at White Sands speculated that some shrapnel from this experiment given a fluke direction and motion could have temporarily gone into orbit about the earth. (Of course there would have been no way of proving it.) Anybody remember this? (This could of happened as early as 10 years before Sputnik.) I remember something like this in an issue of Aviation Week a day or three after the launch of Sputnik 1. It's similar to the idea that a suborbital launch of ball barring-sized beads went into solar orbit a year or so before Luna 1 did. Interesting to speculate, but since there's no practical way to prove it and no information was ever received, it just ends up being Nationalistic 'Sour Grapes'. |
#4
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Launched into orbit before 1950
Al wrote: Here is an odd thing I remember reading somewhere and can not find again. During the high altitude testing at White Sands with V-2s , there was an experiment creating 'Artificial Meteors'(I am not sure what was meant by this) by launching rifle grenades at or near apogee. I seem to remember reading that one of the researchers at White Sands speculated that some shrapnel from this experiment given a fluke direction and motion could have temporarily gone into orbit about the earth. (Of course there would have been no way of proving it.) Anybody remember this? (This could of happened as early as 10 years before Sputnik.) It's described on this page: http://www.project1947.com/gfb/gfbchron.html Since they were using shaped charge rifle grenades, the "thorn" (that's the nickname of the metal projectile that comes out of the shaped charge when it detonates) would be going at very high speed, but I doubt at anywhere near what would be needed to achieve orbit. But it would neatly explain "green fireball" sightings, as the liner that's ejected from a shaped charge and forms into the thorn is made of copper, and copper burns with a bright green light. Besides making artificial meteors, they might have been playing around with a concept for a direct-ascent antisatellite system... as the projectiles would have been able to rise to very high altitudes...or working on ways to create decoys for incoming ballistic missiles to use against enemy ABMs. Pat |
#5
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Launched into orbit before 1950
On Oct 3, 5:08 pm, Pat Flannery wrote:
Al wrote: Here is an odd thing I remember reading somewhere and can not find again. During the high altitude testing at White Sands with V-2s , there was an experiment creating 'Artificial Meteors'(I am not sure what was meant by this) by launching rifle grenades at or near apogee. I seem to remember reading that one of the researchers at White Sands speculated that some shrapnel from this experiment given a fluke direction and motion could have temporarily gone into orbit about the earth. (Of course there would have been no way of proving it.) Anybody remember this? (This could of happened as early as 10 years before Sputnik.) It's described on this page:http://www.project1947.com/gfb/gfbchron.html Since they were using shaped charge rifle grenades, the "thorn" (that's the nickname of the metal projectile that comes out of the shaped charge when it detonates) would be going at very high speed, but I doubt at anywhere near what would be needed to achieve orbit. But it would neatly explain "green fireball" sightings, as the liner that's ejected from a shaped charge and forms into the thorn is made of copper, and copper burns with a bright green light. Besides making artificial meteors, they might have been playing around with a concept for a direct-ascent antisatellite system... as the projectiles would have been able to rise to very high altitudes...or working on ways to create decoys for incoming ballistic missiles to use against enemy ABMs. Pat Back in the pre-Redstone days, someone at JPL figured out that a WAC Corporal with Loki upper stages could, in theory, land an empty beer can on the Moon. |
#6
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Launched into orbit before 1950
Andre Lieven wrote: http://www.project1947.com/gfb/gfbchron.html Dear God, somebody knows about that website besides me! ;-) I wish UFX was still out there. I would suggest that a rocket that has a maximum velocity of 3,700 MPH has AbZero ability to place anything into a 17,500 MPH orbit. A hollow charge projectile can shoot a "thorn" out at around Mach 5, but that's still far, far short of orbital velocity, particularly given the fact that the V-2 was launched vertically, so the hollow charge projectile would have to get all of its horizontal orbital velocity on its own, after reaching a appropriate height above the atmosphere. Pat |
#7
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Launched into orbit before 1950
On Oct 4, 5:27 am, Pat Flannery wrote:
Andre Lieven wrote: http://www.project1947.com/gfb/gfbchron.html Dear God, somebody knows about that website besides me! ;-) Well, I found out about it by looking for the information that the OP had asked about. High speed net access is a nifty thing. I wish UFX was still out there. ? I would suggest that a rocket that has a maximum velocity of 3,700 MPH has AbZero ability to place anything into a 17,500 MPH orbit. A hollow charge projectile can shoot a "thorn" out at around Mach 5, but that's still far, far short of orbital velocity, particularly given the fact that the V-2 was launched vertically, so the hollow charge projectile would have to get all of its horizontal orbital velocity on its own, after reaching a appropriate height above the atmosphere. Indeed. Even if the V-2 could have provided about 5,000 MPH of horizontal velocity ( And, it couldn't, at altitude ), then the grenades would have still needed to impart 12,500 MPH more of it. Not possible then. So, this was a tale of old female spouses... g Andre |
#8
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Launched into orbit before 1950
On Wed, 03 Oct 2007 20:24:04 -0700, Matt wrote:
Back in the pre-Redstone days, someone at JPL figured out that a WAC Corporal with Loki upper stages could, in theory, land an empty beer can on the Moon. I find that unlikely, technicaly. However, which beer company would have funded that project? |
#9
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Launched into orbit before 1950
On Oct 4, 3:19 pm, Alan Jones wrote:
On Wed, 03 Oct 2007 20:24:04 -0700, Matt wrote: Back in the pre-Redstone days, someone at JPL figured out that a WAC Corporal with Loki upper stages could, in theory, land an empty beer can on the Moon. I find that unlikely, technicaly. However, which beer company would have funded that project? From my back of the envelope calculations, it's utterly impossible. But it's hard to get good data on the rockets involved. For instance, what is the empty mass of a Loki? |
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