Our unlikely existence ?

I see in the January "Astronomy Now" that Adrian Berry is saying that
the Chicxulub impact is a possible explanation for the Fermi Paradox.
While it's true that the demise of the dinosaurs probably allowed
mammals to rise (disregarding the image of Raquel Welch evoked by his
writing "as long as flesh-eating dinosaurs roamed the planet, it was
impossible for our ape-like ancestors to survive" :-) intelligence could
take other forms.
For instance, the idea of intelligent dinosauroids is quite respectable
http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/D/dinosaurintell.html and on
other worlds there could have been other "choices", going right back to
their equivalent of the Cambrian Explosion.
For instance, the evolution of giant birds in the Tertiary epoch could
have prevented the rise of large mammals, and those birds could have
developed our level of intelligence.

Jonathan Silverlight wrote:
I see in the January "Astronomy Now" that Adrian Berry is saying that
the Chicxulub impact is a possible explanation for the Fermi Paradox.
While it's true that the demise of the dinosaurs probably allowed
mammals to rise (disregarding the image of Raquel Welch evoked by his
writing "as long as flesh-eating dinosaurs roamed the planet, it was
impossible for our ape-like ancestors to survive" :-) intelligence could
take other forms.
For instance, the idea of intelligent dinosauroids is quite respectable
http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/D/dinosaurintell.html and on
other worlds there could have been other "choices", going right back to
their equivalent of the Cambrian Explosion.
For instance, the evolution of giant birds in the Tertiary epoch could
have prevented the rise of large mammals, and those birds could have
developed our level of intelligence.

The problem with claims such as "it was impossible....." is that they
are so definitive that they are ludicrous. We are here, so the author
is conceivably wrong!

Time to wrap up my grandson's pressy! A Bresser telescope.........

Lawrence

Hello

I apologize in advance for this bad comment:
How do we know that Dinosaurs were not as intelligent as us?
I don't think that much will be left of our writings, buildings and even
computers in 60 millions years :-)

Happy Chrismas.

JP

"Jonathan Silverlight" a
écrit dans le message de ...
I see in the January "Astronomy Now" that Adrian Berry is saying that
the Chicxulub impact is a possible explanation for the Fermi Paradox.
While it's true that the demise of the dinosaurs probably allowed
mammals to rise (disregarding the image of Raquel Welch evoked by his
writing "as long as flesh-eating dinosaurs roamed the planet, it was
impossible for our ape-like ancestors to survive" :-) intelligence could
take other forms.
For instance, the idea of intelligent dinosauroids is quite respectable
http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/D/dinosaurintell.html and on
other worlds there could have been other "choices", going right back to
their equivalent of the Cambrian Explosion.
For instance, the evolution of giant birds in the Tertiary epoch could
have prevented the rise of large mammals, and those birds could have
developed our level of intelligence.

In message , JP LR
writes

Hello

I apologize in advance for this bad comment:
How do we know that Dinosaurs were not as intelligent as us?
I don't think that much will be left of our writings, buildings and even
computers in 60 millions years :-)

Happy Chrismas.

JP

We know they didn't extensively mine coal, for instance, and unless they
were careful to build everything near a subduction zone (as required by
the law in David Brin's Uplift stories) they were very tidy.
But you're right, and perhaps the tragedy of their destruction was even
bigger than we think.

Hello
I apologize in advance for this bad comment:
How do we know that Dinosaurs were not as intelligent as us?
I don't think that much will be left of our writings, buildings and
even
computers in 60 millions years :-)

Happy Chrismas.

JP

There won't be much left, you're right. Even the longest-lived
radio-active isotopes fabricated by man will have long-decayed into
something less hot and harmful. No doubt, some will even have been
recycled through subduction into new rocks. Computers, us... very
ephemeral. The stars however.... forever!

Pierre MK-UK

Wasn't it Pierre who wrote:
Hello
I apologize in advance for this bad comment:
How do we know that Dinosaurs were not as intelligent as us?
I don't think that much will be left of our writings, buildings and
even
computers in 60 millions years :-)

Happy Chrismas.

JP

There won't be much left, you're right. Even the longest-lived
radio-active isotopes fabricated by man will have long-decayed into
something less hot and harmful. No doubt, some will even have been
recycled through subduction into new rocks. Computers, us... very
ephemeral. The stars however.... forever!

Only a tiny fraction of anything becomes fossilised, but because there
was such a large amount of material to start with, there are quite a few
fossils of dinosaurs, dinosaur footprints, dinosaur eggs and trees from
that era that have been preserved for 60 million years.

In the same way, only a small fraction of things like our pottery,
woodwork and tyre tracks will become fossilised, but there's so much
material around that there will be some. Once fossilised, the evidence
could last for billions of years.

--
Mike Williams
Gentleman of Leisure

Only a tiny fraction of anything becomes fossilised, but because there
was such a large amount of material to start with, there are quite a
few
fossils of dinosaurs, dinosaur footprints, dinosaur eggs and trees from

that era that have been preserved for 60 million years.

In the same way, only a small fraction of things like our pottery,
woodwork and tyre tracks will become fossilised, but there's so much
material around that there will be some. Once fossilised, the evidence
could last for billions of years.


--
Mike Williams
Gentleman of Leisure

I suppose I should have said that for all that gets destroyed in the
subduction process, some material will survive in uplifted areas.

Pierre MK-UK

JP LR wrote:

Hello

I apologize in advance for this bad comment:
How do we know that Dinosaurs were not as intelligent as us?
I don't think that much will be left of our writings, buildings and even
computers in 60 millions years :-)

If there were a mass extinction sized asteroid strike tomorrow perhaps
much of our civilization would be preserved beneath layers of ash and
fallout. Buildings especially would remain preserved for many millions
of years. Certainly enough for the next intelligent species to uncover.

So where's the leftovers from a dinosaurial civilization?

--

Peter

Hello,

I am not serious, but only for the pleasure of arguing:
1) Some of the previous answers assume more or less hat our cities,
buildings, airports and so on will under several yards of mud, and that it
won't be difficult to find our remains.
A large part of our civilisation in 60 millions years will be probaly under
the earth surface because of tectonics. The map of Earth in Cretaceous is
not quite similar to today's.
America (both south and north) shape was very different of today's shape,
it's the same for south east Asia. At the current speed for tectonic plates
(one inche per year), in 60 000 000 years these plates will have move by 900
miles horizontaly, and half of every place that is today at less than 900
miles from a fault line, will be under Earth in 60 Millions years.
Our dinosaurs findings are a matter of chance.

2) For the same reason I doubt that our coal mine will be detectable in 60
million years, even today's, 30 years after the end of exploitation many
coal mines begin to collapse.

3) Are buildings able to stand million years? How many hills are in fact old
tumulus? Where are the remains of Babylon with its 80 feets large walls? How
many of our cities are in dry desert? Do you recall the very sad landscape
after Katrina?

4) Would it be possible for us to recognise intelligent dinosaurs remains,
or for aliens intelligent human remains in 60 millions years?
For example, the arguments about size of remains as a sign of intelligence
do not apply for beeings far greater or far smaller as us: How can a beeing
30 yards high be impressed by a tool of 10 inches long?

Another example: Computer electronic cards, 20 or 30 years old are without
doubts manufactured items (10 or 20 inches long and large with identifiable
components the size of a finger), todays electronics cards are not
impressive at all: They are less than one inche square except for mother
board.

Yet nother example: We won't make so much waste in the coming centuries as
we have done in 20th century, at least I hope so. How many chances have an
alien in 60 million years to find an artifact from the 19, 20 or 21th
centuries? Only one chance for 200 000 if every artifact of those three
centuries survive to this time. Far less because not many computer, camera
or city will have the chance to fall in a lake that will be later changed in
coal.

Jean-Pierre

"Peter Hayes" a écrit dans le message de
om...
JP LR wrote:

Hello

I apologize in advance for this bad comment:
How do we know that Dinosaurs were not as intelligent as us?
I don't think that much will be left of our writings, buildings and even
computers in 60 millions years :-)

If there were a mass extinction sized asteroid strike tomorrow perhaps
much of our civilization would be preserved beneath layers of ash and
fallout. Buildings especially would remain preserved for many millions
of years. Certainly enough for the next intelligent species to uncover.

So where's the leftovers from a dinosaurial civilization?

--

Peter

In message , JP LR
writes
Hello,

I am not serious, but only for the pleasure of arguing:

Much the best reason for posting :-)

2) For the same reason I doubt that our coal mine will be detectable in 60
million years, even today's, 30 years after the end of exploitation many
coal mines begin to collapse.


That's exactly why I mentioned coal. Even - especially - if the mines
collapse, they will be full of pit props and other things that can't be
removed, including a large number of bodies :-( Also, there's no sign
that our iron deposits are someone else's waste, though that's all we
will leave.

I'm still waiting for someone to counter my main argument, which is that
if we weren't here something else could be - perhaps even something with
an exoskeleton, if things had worked out differently. The Fermi paradox
still holds in this situation, IMO.