What's up with gravity wave detection?

(Bilge) wrote in message ...
Aleksandr Timofeev, famous russion crackpot,

'famous russion'

Dear David Bilge,
I am very much flattered by your praise in my address!
Yes, I am Russian and I am proud of that I am Russian.

'crackpot'

Dear David Bilge,
The logic sense of this TERM depends on a philosophical point of view
on a VIRTUAL REALITY and materialistic REALITY.

Thus, we have the shoddy Bilge's assertion:

Go crawl back in your hole. Don't they have a leash law where you live?
If so, stop taking it off or your owners will get fined.

The medical note: the schizophrenia is the classified delirium.

The classified delirium resembles a consistent mathematical
abstract mental construction not having places in reality.
Thus, STR and GTR are schizophrenic virtual realities,
and those "scientists" (for example, David Bilge),
which one carol these chimaera, is ill suffering affliction
by an induced schizophrenia by means of STR and GTR...

================================================== ==================
(Bilge) wrote in message ...

[snip]

So far, the current theories _are_ consistent with observation. Not
only are they consistent, but general relativity and the standard model
are the most well-tested theories in the history of science. There is
simply no experiment or known natural phenomena which isn't explained by
one of those two theories.

There is natural experiment and known natural phenomena which isn't
explained by
one of those two theories - 'general relativity and the standard
model':

http://www.wbabin.net/physics/timo.htm

Thus, we have the shoddy Bilge's assertion:

'So far, the current theories _are_ consistent with observation. Not
only are they consistent, but general relativity and the standard
model
are the most well-tested theories in the history of science. There is
simply no experiment or known natural phenomena which isn't explained
by
one of those two theories. '

Thus, this false Bilge's assertion is a subject for examination by the
doctors - psychopathologs or lawyers - criminalists as fraud. ;^)

Since you seem to object to quantum gravity in
general, I really don't see that to which you are objecting. Quantum
gravity is essentially just finding a way to combine gravity and the
standard model. Since you seem to find that idea objectionable, I would
think you would be perfectly happy with the two separate theories which
work in any case anyone has ever been able to test them.

Natural Quantum gravity described below:

http://www.wbabin.net/physics/timo.htm

The quantization of a gravitational charge in the solar system
is circumscribed here.

Comments

---
Regards
;^)

http://www.wbabin.net/

"Androcles" wrote in message ...
"Jim Greenfield" wrote in message
om...
| vonroach wrote in message
. ..
| On Thu, 02 Sep 2004 08:17:08 GMT, "Androcles"
| wrote:
|
|
| "Jim Greenfield" wrote in message
| . com...
| | "Androcles" wrote in message
...
| | "RP" wrote in message
| | ...
| | |
| | |
| | | Jim Greenfield wrote:
Androcles.
|
| Einstein warned: "Most mistakes in philosophy and logic occur because
| the human mind is apt to take the symbol for reality"
|
| So the idiot, seeing that the stove was red hot, went ahead and put
| his hand on it anyway!.........leading to the premise of shrinkage,
| time warp etc
|
| (-) is a SYMBOL. Yet Einstein (et al) STILL went ahead and considered
| "less than zeros" as "REALITY"
|
| Jim G
| c'=c+v

Here's another. 0.
It is a very useful symbol for show how far a quantity is displaced from
the decimal point, but it represents nothing and has all the properties of
nothing, which are none at all. You can multiply by it, and say there are
0*6 apples in the barrel, just as there are 0*Jims in the barrel either. You
can divide by it and get any quantity you like, but you can add it or
subtract it.
It is the empty set, it is vacuum. It cannot be, for it is nothing. It is an
idea, and an idea is like unto a computer program. It is not real, in the
sense that we can reach out and touch it, it has no substance. It is the
symbol.
Androcles

Have a look at how your computer works. There are a series of 0,1 ,
or (+1) if you like. There are NO (-1)s, because there are NO minus
ones in nature. For those who "believe" that "imaginary" has the same
kudos as "natural" and "real", arguing against them is futile. It is
akin to arguing against the existence of ghosts, to somebody who has
"seen" one!!!!!

Jim G
c'=c+v


| Tell me Andy, does it seem strange to you that all matter and energy
| has been described as particular (quantum theory). And that the mind's
| contribution of a spacetime in which this process lives is a continum
| (unless you agree to Planck time, planck length, etc?)

"Jim Greenfield" wrote in message
om...
| "Androcles" wrote in message
...
| "Jim Greenfield" wrote in message
| om...
| | vonroach wrote in message
| . ..
| | On Thu, 02 Sep 2004 08:17:08 GMT, "Androcles"
| | wrote:
| |
| |
| | "Jim Greenfield" wrote in message
| | . com...
| | | "Androcles" wrote in message
| ...
| | | "RP" wrote in message
| | | ...
| | | |
| | | |
| | | | Jim Greenfield wrote:
| Androcles.
| |
| | Einstein warned: "Most mistakes in philosophy and logic occur
because
| | the human mind is apt to take the symbol for reality"
| |
| | So the idiot, seeing that the stove was red hot, went ahead and put
| | his hand on it anyway!.........leading to the premise of shrinkage,
| | time warp etc
| |
| | (-) is a SYMBOL. Yet Einstein (et al) STILL went ahead and considered
| | "less than zeros" as "REALITY"
| |
| | Jim G
| | c'=c+v
|
| Here's another. 0.
| It is a very useful symbol for show how far a quantity is displaced from
| the decimal point, but it represents nothing and has all the properties
of
| nothing, which are none at all. You can multiply by it, and say there
are
| 0*6 apples in the barrel, just as there are 0*Jims in the barrel either.
You
| can divide by it and get any quantity you like, but you can add it or
| subtract it.
| It is the empty set, it is vacuum. It cannot be, for it is nothing. It
is an
| idea, and an idea is like unto a computer program. It is not real, in
the
| sense that we can reach out and touch it, it has no substance. It is the
| symbol.
| Androcles
|
| Have a look at how your computer works. There are a series of 0,1 ,
| or (+1) if you like.

Not really... it uses voltages.

| There are NO (-1)s, because there are NO minus ones in nature.

0, 1, -1, i, -i are mathematical entities that are independent of nature.
If they didn't exist, I couldn't write them.
Androcles



For those who "believe" that "imaginary" has the same
| kudos as "natural" and "real", arguing against them is futile. It is
| akin to arguing against the existence of ghosts, to somebody who has
| "seen" one!!!!!
|
| Jim G
| c'=c+v
|
|
Tell me Andy, does it seem strange to you that all matter and energy
has been described as particular (quantum theory). And that the mind's
contribution of a spacetime in which this process lives is a continum
(unless you agree to Planck time, planck length, etc?)
I have ceased to be amazed at how strange the mind works.
Androcles

"Androcles" wrote in message ...
"Jim Greenfield" wrote in message
om...
| "Androcles" wrote in message
...
| "Jim Greenfield" wrote in message
| om...
| | vonroach wrote in message
. ..
| | On Thu, 02 Sep 2004 08:17:08 GMT, "Androcles"
| | wrote:
| |
| |
| | "Jim Greenfield" wrote in message
| | . com...
| | | "Androcles" wrote in message
...
| | | "RP" wrote in message
| | | ...
| | | |
| | | |
| | | | Jim Greenfield wrote:
Androcles.
| |
| | Einstein warned: "Most mistakes in philosophy and logic occur
because
| | the human mind is apt to take the symbol for reality"
| |
| | So the idiot, seeing that the stove was red hot, went ahead and put
| | his hand on it anyway!.........leading to the premise of shrinkage,
| | time warp etc
| |
| | (-) is a SYMBOL. Yet Einstein (et al) STILL went ahead and considered
| | "less than zeros" as "REALITY"
| |
| | Jim G
| | c'=c+v

| Have a look at how your computer works. There are a series of 0,1 ,
| or (+1) if you like.

Not really... it uses voltages.

Nope! Code 11111100000100101100101010110010010010000110011011 0....
.........not a minus 1 to be seen!

| There are NO (-1)s, because there are NO minus ones in nature.

0, 1, -1, i, -i are mathematical entities that are independent of nature.
If they didn't exist, I couldn't write them.
Androcles

So you DO believe in ghosts!? After all, I just wrote the word, so
they MUST exist.
This mathemagics is what brings understanding of reality to a halt.
Mathemarazzi confuse (-) between a position, or a direction, and "less
than zero". The concepts you have given as examples are cases in
point; the sqrt of a negative number has the same reality factor as
the neighbour's daughter's "imaginary friend". Are we going to accept
her view of nature??????

Jim G
c'=c+v



For those who "believe" that "imaginary" has the same
| kudos as "natural" and "real", arguing against them is futile. It is
| akin to arguing against the existence of ghosts, to somebody who has
| "seen" one!!!!!
|
| Jim G
| c'=c+v

"Jim Greenfield" wrote in message
om...
| "Androcles" wrote in message
...
| "Jim Greenfield" wrote in message
| om...
| | "Androcles" wrote in message
| ...
| | "Jim Greenfield" wrote in message
| | om...
| | | vonroach wrote in message
| . ..
| | | On Thu, 02 Sep 2004 08:17:08 GMT, "Androcles"
| | | wrote:
| | |
| | |
| | | "Jim Greenfield" wrote in message
| | | . com...
| | | | "Androcles" wrote in
message
| ...
| | | | "RP" wrote in message
| | | | ...
| | | | |
| | | | |
| | | | | Jim Greenfield wrote:
| Androcles.
| | |
| | | Einstein warned: "Most mistakes in philosophy and logic occur
| because
| | | the human mind is apt to take the symbol for reality"
| | |
| | | So the idiot, seeing that the stove was red hot, went ahead and
put
| | | his hand on it anyway!.........leading to the premise of
shrinkage,
| | | time warp etc
| | |
| | | (-) is a SYMBOL. Yet Einstein (et al) STILL went ahead and
considered
| | | "less than zeros" as "REALITY"
| | |
| | | Jim G
| | | c'=c+v
|
| | Have a look at how your computer works. There are a series of 0,1 ,
| | or (+1) if you like.
|
| Not really... it uses voltages.
|
| Nope! Code 11111100000100101100101010110010010010000110011011 0....
| ........not a minus 1 to be seen!

What do you mean, nope?
I can assure you, MY computer uses voltages.



|
| | There are NO (-1)s, because there are NO minus ones in nature.
|
| 0, 1, -1, i, -i are mathematical entities that are independent of
nature.
| If they didn't exist, I couldn't write them.
| Androcles
|
| So you DO believe in ghosts!?

Yes, of course I do, even though I can't feel, smell, taste or hear them.
The other day I was watching Winston Churchill on the History Channel, and
he's a ghost, he died in 1965. I also saw Hitler. Amazed? There are lots of
ghosts, people who once lived and are now dead, yet we can see them.
Einstein is a another evil spirit, one I'd like to exorcize from physics.


|After all, I just wrote the word, so they MUST exist.

Well, of course. You pushed an array of buttons in the correct sequence that
conveyed to me the concept "(You) just wrote the word, so they MUST exist".
Getting your fingers to do that took signals carried via nerves to control
the muscles that caused the fingers to move where YOU wanted then to go,
those signals originated in the physical brain which is as near identical to
mine as your computer is to mine, but YOU are very different person (mind,
spirit, ghost) to me. My body is of no interest to you, or yours to me. We
are communicating over thousands of miles, mind to mind, ghost to ghost. We
are embodied spirits.


| This mathemagics is what brings understanding of reality to a halt.

For you, maybe. I have no trouble distinguishing "reality" as you mean it,
the interaction of material objects (matter), and words such as
"understanding" which have no material content.


| Mathemarazzi confuse (-) between a position, or a direction, and "less
| than zero".
I'm afraid it is you that is confused. (-) is a symbol that conveys an idea,
just as "abcde...xyz" are symbols. When placed in the correct order, they
form words, examples of which are "trout", "elephant", "me", "not", "into"
and "Jim". We then construct them into sentences, we convey ideas.
Mathematics uses a far more precise shorthand than English, but it is a
language to convey ideas nevertheless. In English I use far more symbols
than I do in mathematics, but both languages convey ideas.
Example:
"The square on the hypotenuse is equal to the sum of the squares on the
other two sides". A great deal of that is missing. I haven't use the word
"triangle", I have not specified that it is a right-angled triangle, I
haven't defined "square". I expect you, the reader, to accept what I mean by
implication. The language of mathematics carries the same idea, but in
shorthand.
z^2 = x^2+y^2.
When you see such an equation read it most carefully because it is shorthand
and contains a paragraph of English. The reason most people have difficulty
with mathematics is they haven't learned the language and want to speed
read. That is a skill that only comes after practice, like playing the
piano. If the equation is familiar it is easy to read. If it is unfamiliar,
it is harder to read.
Translate this into English:
½[tau(0,0,0,t)+tau(0,0,0,t+x'/(c-v)+x'/(c+v))] = tau(x',0,0,t+x'/(c-v)).
I'm not going to, it'll take a page, but you should if you want to
understand relativity, and you cannot find what is wrong with it if you
don't understand
it,even though you may have a gut feel something is wrong. Nitpicking the
meaning of 'minus' isn't going to be heard by anyone.

| The concepts you have given as examples are cases in
| point; the sqrt of a negative number has the same reality factor as
| the neighbour's daughter's "imaginary friend".

As with z^2 = x^2+y^2 where a right-triangle is implied, the beauty of
mathematics is that we can extend the concept to forces or velocities, and
in doing so we deal with negative quantities. In the English language we
use the term "pull" and "push", in the Mathematic language we say '+' and
'-'. When we write 'sqrt()', either pull or push is implied, as the
right-angled triangle is implied in z^2= x^2+z^2.

Are we going to accept
| her view of nature??????

That depends on what was said, our understanding of the language it was
uttered in, the context in which it was said and whether it was logically
valid.
My neighbour's daughter's friend said the next bus is due at 2:07.
However, my neighbour's daughter is not a malicious child, although she is
given to flights of fancy. I suspect she means at the local bus stop and not
the Greyhound terminal in New York, and I suspect she means this afternoon.
I shall go to the bus stop at 2:00pm, I am meeting a friend from the bus,
the arrival may be early. Doubtless the child will grow out of talking to
her dolls, although millions of Christians will never grow out of talking to
their imaginary god.


Androcles.

|
| Jim G
| c'=c+v
|
|
|
| For those who "believe" that "imaginary" has the same
| | kudos as "natural" and "real", arguing against them is futile. It is
| | akin to arguing against the existence of ghosts, to somebody who has
| | "seen" one!!!!!
| |
| | Jim G
| | c'=c+v

"Androcles" wrote in message ...
"Jim Greenfield" wrote in message
om...
| "Androcles" wrote in message
...
| "Jim Greenfield" wrote in message
| om...
| | "Androcles" wrote in message
...
| | "Jim Greenfield" wrote in message
| | om...
| | | vonroach wrote in message
. ..
| | | On Thu, 02 Sep 2004 08:17:08 GMT, "Androcles"
| | | wrote:
| | |
| | |
| | | "Jim Greenfield" wrote in message
| | | . com...
| | | | "Androcles" wrote in
message
...
| | | | "RP" wrote in message
| | | | ...
| | | | |
| | | | |
| | | | | Jim Greenfield wrote:
Androcles.
| | |
| | | Einstein warned: "Most mistakes in philosophy and logic occur
because
| | | the human mind is apt to take the symbol for reality"
| | |
| | | So the idiot, seeing that the stove was red hot, went ahead and
put
| | | his hand on it anyway!.........leading to the premise of
shrinkage,
| | | time warp etc
| | |
| | | (-) is a SYMBOL. Yet Einstein (et al) STILL went ahead and
considered
| | | "less than zeros" as "REALITY"
| | |
| | | Jim G
| | | c'=c+v

| | Have a look at how your computer works. There are a series of 0,1 ,
| | or (+1) if you like.
|
| Not really... it uses voltages.
|
| Nope! Code 11111100000100101100101010110010010010000110011011 0....
| ........not a minus 1 to be seen!

What do you mean, nope?
I can assure you, MY computer uses voltages.

And NOT this code?? You need a better understanding of the process.
It expresses TWO ONLY possibilities in nature; an "is" or an "is not".
There is NO third possibility in nature. There is 0 or 0 In no case
is there a 0 Using such is fairy land when dealing with natural
entities. You are welcome to give an example of a "less than zero"
entity which occurs in nature. I have already offered a large reward
for same :-)


|
| | There are NO (-1)s, because there are NO minus ones in nature.
|
| 0, 1, -1, i, -i are mathematical entities that are independent of
nature.
| If they didn't exist, I couldn't write them.
| Androcles

|
| So you DO believe in ghosts!?

Yes, of course I do, even though I can't feel, smell, taste or hear them.
The other day I was watching Winston Churchill on the History Channel, and
he's a ghost, he died in 1965. I also saw Hitler. Amazed? There are lots of
ghosts, people who once lived and are now dead, yet we can see them.
Einstein is a another evil spirit, one I'd like to exorcize from physics.

I think you must have lost it! Equating the image on a film clip, to
the actual substance of a person in a previous time, is ridiculous.
Eat a magic mushroom- the hallucination is not REAL either, and
neither are the imaginings of "less than zero" ANYTHINGS


|After all, I just wrote the word, so they MUST exist.

Well, of course. You pushed an array of buttons in the correct sequence that
conveyed to me the concept "(You) just wrote the word, so they MUST exist".
Getting your fingers to do that took signals carried via nerves to control
the muscles that caused the fingers to move where YOU wanted then to go,
those signals originated in the physical brain which is as near identical to
mine as your computer is to mine, but YOU are very different person (mind,
spirit, ghost) to me. My body is of no interest to you, or yours to me. We
are communicating over thousands of miles, mind to mind, ghost to ghost. We
are embodied spirits.

Not me! "Human spirit" is great for those who fear carking it- the
"afterlife" soothes their fears. Future anatomical and biological
sciences will show that our brains work very closely along the lines
of these computers- powered by chemically generated electrical energy,
and entailing the biological equivalents of RAM and ROM


| This mathemagics is what brings understanding of reality to a halt.

For you, maybe. I have no trouble distinguishing "reality" as you mean it,
the interaction of material objects (matter), and words such as
"understanding" which have no material content.

Think about it! It is the "imaginary" piece of train that is
"vanished" under SR (the LT's). How can something vanish, which only
existed as "an idea" in the first place?


| Mathemarazzi confuse (-) between a position, or a direction, and "less
| than zero".
I'm afraid it is you that is confused. (-) is a symbol that conveys an idea,
just as "abcde...xyz" are symbols. When placed in the correct order, they
form words, examples of which are "trout", "elephant", "me", "not", "into"
and "Jim". We then construct them into sentences, we convey ideas.
Mathematics uses a far more precise shorthand than English, but it is a
language to convey ideas nevertheless. In English I use far more symbols
than I do in mathematics, but both languages convey ideas.

I can have an "idea" that a wolf ate a sheep. I CANNOT have an idea
that a wolf ate a sheep which had NEVER existed.
Give me here an example of something which has not existed previously:


Example:
"The square on the hypotenuse is equal to the sum of the squares on the
other two sides". A great deal of that is missing. I haven't use the word
"triangle", I have not specified that it is a right-angled triangle, I
haven't defined "square". I expect you, the reader, to accept what I mean by
implication. The language of mathematics carries the same idea, but in
shorthand.

Get a grip! "Hypotenuse" gives all the information about the situation
right there!

z^2 = x^2+y^2.
When you see such an equation read it most carefully because it is shorthand
and contains a paragraph of English. The reason most people have difficulty
with mathematics is they haven't learned the language and want to speed
read. That is a skill that only comes after practice, like playing the
piano. If the equation is familiar it is easy to read. If it is unfamiliar,
it is harder to read.
Translate this into English:
½[tau(0,0,0,t)+tau(0,0,0,t+x'/(c-v)+x'/(c+v))] = tau(x',0,0,t+x'/(c-v)).
I'm not going to, it'll take a page, but you should if you want to
understand relativity, and you cannot find what is wrong with it if you
don't understand
it,even though you may have a gut feel something is wrong. Nitpicking the
meaning of 'minus' isn't going to be heard by anyone.

Fantastic! Calculus was developed to handle "averages"/changes, right?
So if the velocity of light NEVER ALTERS, why would calculus EVER be
required to deal with its propagation????????

| The concepts you have given as examples are cases in
| point; the sqrt of a negative number has the same reality factor as
| the neighbour's daughter's "imaginary friend".

As with z^2 = x^2+y^2 where a right-triangle is implied, the beauty of
mathematics is that we can extend the concept to forces or velocities, and
in doing so we deal with negative quantities. In the English language we
use the term "pull" and "push", in the Mathematic language we say '+' and
'-'. When we write 'sqrt()', either pull or push is implied, as the
right-angled triangle is implied in z^2= x^2+z^2.

Spot on! Force is ALWAYS poitive (0) (so is distance/velocity)

Are we going to accept
| her view of nature??????

That depends on what was said, our understanding of the language it was
uttered in, the context in which it was said and whether it was logically
valid.
My neighbour's daughter's friend said the next bus is due at 2:07.
However, my neighbour's daughter is not a malicious child, although she is
given to flights of fancy. I suspect she means at the local bus stop and not
the Greyhound terminal in New York, and I suspect she means this afternoon.
I shall go to the bus stop at 2:00pm, I am meeting a friend from the bus,
the arrival may be early. Doubtless the child will grow out of talking to
her dolls, although millions of Christians will never grow out of talking to
their imaginary god.

You'll miss alot of buses

Jim G
c'=c+v

"Jim Greenfield" wrote in message
om...

| | | Have a look at how your computer works. There are a series of 0,1
,
| | | or (+1) if you like.
| |
| | Not really... it uses voltages.
| |
| | Nope! Code 11111100000100101100101010110010010010000110011011 0....
| | ........not a minus 1 to be seen!
|
| What do you mean, nope?
| I can assure you, MY computer uses voltages.
|
| And NOT this code??

Oh, you mean a theoretical computer, like a Turing Machine, designed by the
mathematician and Enigma codebreaker, Alan Turing.
That's the theory of computing, not HOW my computer WORKS.

I had a look at how my computer WORKS, and that is by electricity. If you
look inside you'll see a power supply unit, or PSU. It has
some coloured wire coming out of it. Black for ground, yellow for +5V,
red for +12V and a rather strange blue one that doesn't exist: -12V.
If I connect an LED across +12 and ground (LED means Light Emitting Diode so
I have to connect it the right way round or it won't glow) I get the same
result as
if I'd connected it from ground to -12V. I call the -12V "less than zero".



| You need a better understanding of the process.

You need a better understanding of the question.



| It expresses TWO ONLY possibilities in nature; an "is" or an "is not".

Yes, that is what George Boole based his algebra on, and it is binary by its
character. That is taken care of in the real computer +5V (IS NOT) and
ground or 0V (IS).
The LED I use to test the presence of -12V doesn't work as well if connected
to +5V. It says to me "I'm not glowing, therefore IS NOT" and I take that to
mean this is not the -12Voltage.


| There is NO third possibility in nature. There is 0 or 0 In no case
| is there a 0

Sure there is. That's why I have -12V from the PSU.
You are using a limited subset of the set of all mathematical symbols.
You claim '-1' doesn't exist in nature, right?
Well, neither does ''.
Neither does '0'.
Neither does '1'.
They are symbols that represent ideas.
Boolean algebra is as much invention as Rubik's cube, and that is
a mathematical entity known as a group.



| Using such is fairy land when dealing with natural
| entities. You are welcome to give an example of a "less than zero"
| entity which occurs in nature.

I have. -12V in by computer. The hard drive won't run without it.


| I have already offered a large reward
| for same :-)

Pay up then.

|
|
| |
| | | There are NO (-1)s, because there are NO minus ones in nature.
| |
| | 0, 1, -1, i, -i are mathematical entities that are independent of
| nature.
| | If they didn't exist, I couldn't write them.
| | Androcles
|
| |
| | So you DO believe in ghosts!?
|
| Yes, of course I do, even though I can't feel, smell, taste or hear
them.
| The other day I was watching Winston Churchill on the History Channel,
and
| he's a ghost, he died in 1965. I also saw Hitler. Amazed? There are lots
of
| ghosts, people who once lived and are now dead, yet we can see them.
| Einstein is a another evil spirit, one I'd like to exorcize from
physics.
|
| I think you must have lost it! Equating the image on a film clip, to
| the actual substance of a person in a previous time, is ridiculous.
| Eat a magic mushroom- the hallucination is not REAL either, and
| neither are the imaginings of "less than zero" ANYTHINGS

You've missed the point.
Let us imagine (we can, so imagination has some realness to it) that
medical technology has (or will) advanced to the point where we are
able to allow blind people to see. Not a new idea, it goes back to the
TV shows "Six Million Dollar Man" and "Star Trek", both of which
made use of an artificial eye. Essentially we have TV camera connected
to the optic nerve. Its not impossible, is it? We can't do it today,
we lack the technology and the know-how, but it is quite conceivable
that some time in the next 50-100 years it may be done. Certainly
there is current research going on.
What happens if we unplug the eye and connect to optic nerve
to a DVD showing a movie? Suddenly we can BE Harry Potter
Much more, we can play a computer generated artificial reality
and control with our hands and body movement and actually
fly a broomstick in what would appear to us as reality.

Here's some simple logic for you.
You cannot build it unless you imagine it first.
ALL of our technology is the result of somebody's imagination.
If you lack imagination, you lack the ability to create.

The problem we are having in this discussion is one of definition.
Your definition of a ghost is the popular idea of a disembodied
spirit that goes around haunting houses, usually maliciously. It is a
concept that is prehistoric. There is a holy ghost that resides
in the imagination of many people, along with angels and fairies.
My definition of a ghost is a spirit that is capable of changing
reality. I AM a ghost. I rely on matter to exist, by *I* am not
this body in which *I* reside, and neither are you. I can cause
an object on my desk to rise into the air before me and settle
gently back down to the surface again, by thinking about it. So
can you.
A computer program is a ghost. It controls and directs the
behaviour of the machine, but it has no substance of its own.
The TV image is a ghost.

Negative numbers are ghostly in character. They are ideas,
not substance. I cannot steal the number 2 and prevent you from
using it as I could steal your car. Negative numbers are less than
zero BECAUSE I SAY THEY ARE, in agreement with the vast
majority, and because we can use that definition to make perfect
sense of the world around us. Negative numbers are a tool for communication
only.
Disagreeing with a definition serves no purpose.



|
|
| |After all, I just wrote the word, so they MUST exist.
|
| Well, of course. You pushed an array of buttons in the correct sequence
that
| conveyed to me the concept "(You) just wrote the word, so they MUST
exist".
| Getting your fingers to do that took signals carried via nerves to
control
| the muscles that caused the fingers to move where YOU wanted then to go,
| those signals originated in the physical brain which is as near
identical to
| mine as your computer is to mine, but YOU are very different person
(mind,
| spirit, ghost) to me. My body is of no interest to you, or yours to me.
We
| are communicating over thousands of miles, mind to mind, ghost to ghost.
We
| are embodied spirits.
|
| Not me! "Human spirit" is great for those who fear carking it- the
| "afterlife" soothes their fears.

Who mentioned afterlife? I'm talking about this life. I'm even raising the
question, what is your definition of life? Is a tree alive? There's quite
a lot of dead wood in this newsgroup, incapable of individual thought
but well able to scream "idiot" because they are unable to comprehend
anything beyond what they were taught in their youth.

| Future anatomical and biological
| sciences will show that our brains work very closely along the lines
| of these computers- powered by chemically generated electrical energy,
| and entailing the biological equivalents of RAM and ROM

I agree, but take that concept further. If we made a model of a brain
(it really doesn't matter if it operates by optics, electronically,
positronically
(as Asimov mildly suggested), hydraulically or on puffs of air, so long as
it has switches that toggle in an organized way, then the possiblity exists
for artificial intelligence, and research is underway in that area. if we
go a step further and exacly model YOUR brain, and at the same time
set its state (make the switches in the same position as you are at this
moment) and tun it on, that artificial brain IS you.
You are the ghost, cloned. And that has the natural conseqence of
eternal life. Not by begging some imagined god and promising to be
good, but by science. We can BE gods, we have it in us to do so.
We first used our own muscle. Then we used animal muscle.
Then we used steam engines for muscle. Then we made some
minor improvement on the same principle and used diesel and such.
Then electricity to provide muscle. And 60 years ago, we made
a dramatic paradigm shift. We started using machines to think for
us, from the humble calculator to the computer. It is not going to
stop. Man will create god, and in his own image. It has already
begun.

|
|
| | This mathemagics is what brings understanding of reality to a halt.
|
| For you, maybe. I have no trouble distinguishing "reality" as you mean
it,
| the interaction of material objects (matter), and words such as
| "understanding" which have no material content.
|
| Think about it! It is the "imaginary" piece of train that is
| "vanished" under SR (the LT's). How can something vanish, which only
| existed as "an idea" in the first place?

I've thought about much more than you, my friend.

|
|
| | Mathemarazzi confuse (-) between a position, or a direction, and "less
| | than zero".
| I'm afraid it is you that is confused. (-) is a symbol that conveys an
idea,
| just as "abcde...xyz" are symbols. When placed in the correct order,
they
| form words, examples of which are "trout", "elephant", "me", "not",
"into"
| and "Jim". We then construct them into sentences, we convey ideas.
| Mathematics uses a far more precise shorthand than English, but it is a
| language to convey ideas nevertheless. In English I use far more symbols
| than I do in mathematics, but both languages convey ideas.
|
| I can have an "idea" that a wolf ate a sheep. I CANNOT have an idea
| that a wolf ate a sheep which had NEVER existed.
| Give me here an example of something which has not existed previously:

Everything we've invented, of course. I think you must have lost it! :-)

|
| Example:
| "The square on the hypotenuse is equal to the sum of the squares on the
| other two sides". A great deal of that is missing. I haven't use the
word
| "triangle", I have not specified that it is a right-angled triangle, I
| haven't defined "square". I expect you, the reader, to accept what I
mean by
| implication. The language of mathematics carries the same idea, but in
| shorthand.
|
| Get a grip! "Hypotenuse" gives all the information about the situation
| right there!

Of course it does, if 'hypotenuse' is defined and understood. Get a grip!

|
| z^2 = x^2+y^2.
| When you see such an equation read it most carefully because it is
shorthand
| and contains a paragraph of English. The reason most people have
difficulty
| with mathematics is they haven't learned the language and want to speed
| read. That is a skill that only comes after practice, like playing the
| piano. If the equation is familiar it is easy to read. If it is
unfamiliar,
| it is harder to read.
| Translate this into English:
| ½[tau(0,0,0,t)+tau(0,0,0,t+x'/(c-v)+x'/(c+v))] = tau(x',0,0,t+x'/(c-v)).
| I'm not going to, it'll take a page, but you should if you want to
| understand relativity, and you cannot find what is wrong with it if you
| don't understand
| it,even though you may have a gut feel something is wrong. Nitpicking
the
| meaning of 'minus' isn't going to be heard by anyone.
|
| Fantastic! Calculus was developed to handle "averages"/changes, right?

No. Whatever gave you that idea? I can't think of anything further from
averages that would relate to differentiation or integration. The
instantaneous velocity is most definitely NOT the average velocity. A
simple example:
Defining velocity = distance travelled/ time to travel, my average velocity
is zero, I am back at my desk. Zero distance travelled per day, every day.
I did take my car yesterday to conduct some business and my instantaneous
velocity was as high as 45 mph. Integrating the distance, I still get zero.

| So if the velocity of light NEVER ALTERS, why would calculus EVER be
| required to deal with its propagation????????

So that Einstein can pretend he's a smart-arse, of course. It's done to
impress people.



|
| | The concepts you have given as examples are cases in
| | point; the sqrt of a negative number has the same reality factor as
| | the neighbour's daughter's "imaginary friend".
|
| As with z^2 = x^2+y^2 where a right-triangle is implied, the beauty of
| mathematics is that we can extend the concept to forces or velocities,
and
| in doing so we deal with negative quantities. In the English language
we
| use the term "pull" and "push", in the Mathematic language we say '+'
and
| '-'. When we write 'sqrt()', either pull or push is implied, as the
| right-angled triangle is implied in z^2= x^2+z^2.
|
| Spot on! Force is ALWAYS poitive (0) (so is distance/velocity)

Not by my definition. push = -pull.
NOTE: by my DEFINITION.
You pull the door from the outside, I push the door from the inside. What's
different? We each face the door and each other. Your coordinate frame
is rotated 180 degrees from mine. A coordinate frame is a mathematical
entity and as such I will continue to use (-) in the mathematical sense to
describe
the situation. If I don't, I'll have to say 'pull' and 'push' in English and
give up
mathematical shorthand.


|
| Are we going to accept
| | her view of nature??????
|
| That depends on what was said, our understanding of the language it was
| uttered in, the context in which it was said and whether it was
logically
| valid.
| My neighbour's daughter's friend said the next bus is due at 2:07.
| However, my neighbour's daughter is not a malicious child, although she
is
| given to flights of fancy. I suspect she means at the local bus stop and
not
| the Greyhound terminal in New York, and I suspect she means this
afternoon.
| I shall go to the bus stop at 2:00pm, I am meeting a friend from the
bus,
| the arrival may be early. Doubtless the child will grow out of talking
to
| her dolls, although millions of Christians will never grow out of
talking to
| their imaginary god.
|
| You'll miss alot of buses.
I think perhaps you already have
Androcles.

|
| Jim G
| c'=c+v

"Androcles" wrote in message ...
"Jim Greenfield" wrote in message
om...

| | | Have a look at how your computer works. There are a series of 0,1
,
| | | or (+1) if you like.
| |
| | Not really... it uses voltages.
| |
| | Nope! Code 11111100000100101100101010110010010010000110011011 0....
| | ........not a minus 1 to be seen!
|
| What do you mean, nope?
| I can assure you, MY computer uses voltages.
|
| And NOT this code??

Oh, you mean a theoretical computer, like a Turing Machine, designed by the
mathematician and Enigma codebreaker, Alan Turing.
That's the theory of computing, not HOW my computer WORKS.

I believe you must be missing the point (deliberately?)
The silicon atoms are either 'charged' or 'not charged'- there is NO
third possibility. Whatever keys the programmer uses to "work" the
computer have J*S to do with it. They are either yes/no on/off
0/(1) etc
THAT is HOW a computer "operates"

I had a look at how my computer WORKS, and that is by electricity. If you
look inside you'll see a power supply unit, or PSU. It has
some coloured wire coming out of it. Black for ground, yellow for +5V,
red for +12V and a rather strange blue one that doesn't exist: -12V.
If I connect an LED across +12 and ground (LED means Light Emitting Diode so
I have to connect it the right way round or it won't glow) I get the same
result as
if I'd connected it from ground to -12V. I call the -12V "less than zero".



| You need a better understanding of the process.

You need a better understanding of the question.

In that case, I invite you to place your finger in the negative side
of a power socket, and describe the "less than zero" jolt you receive.

| It expresses TWO ONLY possibilities in nature; an "is" or an "is not".

Yes, that is what George Boole based his algebra on, and it is binary by its
character. That is taken care of in the real computer +5V (IS NOT) and
ground or 0V (IS).
The LED I use to test the presence of -12V doesn't work as well if connected
to +5V. It says to me "I'm not glowing, therefore IS NOT" and I take that to
mean this is not the -12Voltage.

as above


| There is NO third possibility in nature. There is 0 or 0 In no case
| is there a 0

Sure there is. That's why I have -12V from the PSU.

Rubbish. There are charges which wish to go one way, OR the other.
There is NO THIRD. 0 is only measured at the point where the number of
'lefts' (-) are equal to the number of 'rights' (+)

You are using a limited subset of the set of all mathematical symbols.
You claim '-1' doesn't exist in nature, right?
Well, neither does ''.
Neither does '0'.
Neither does '1'.
They are symbols that represent ideas.
Boolean algebra is as much invention as Rubik's cube, and that is
a mathematical entity known as a group.

Here's an idea- you hit me with (-1) stick, and I'll hit you with (+1)
stick. See how we go........



| Using such is fairy land when dealing with natural
| entities. You are welcome to give an example of a "less than zero"
| entity which occurs in nature.

I have. -12V in by computer. The hard drive won't run without it.


| I have already offered a large reward
| for same :-)

Pay up then.
If you recover from the electric shock :-)
(there are NO "less than zeros" in Nature)
| |
| | | There are NO (-1)s, because there are NO minus ones in nature.
| |
| | 0, 1, -1, i, -i are mathematical entities that are independent of
nature.
| | If they didn't exist, I couldn't write them.
| | Androcles

| |
| | So you DO believe in ghosts!?
|
| Yes, of course I do, even though I can't feel, smell, taste or hear
them.
| The other day I was watching Winston Churchill on the History Channel,
and
| he's a ghost, he died in 1965. I also saw Hitler. Amazed? There are lots
of
| ghosts, people who once lived and are now dead, yet we can see them.
| Einstein is a another evil spirit, one I'd like to exorcize from
physics.
|
| I think you must have lost it! Equating the image on a film clip, to
| the actual substance of a person in a previous time, is ridiculous.
| Eat a magic mushroom- the hallucination is not REAL either, and
| neither are the imaginings of "less than zero" ANYTHINGS

You've missed the point.
Let us imagine (we can, so imagination has some realness to it) that
medical technology has (or will) advanced to the point where we are
able to allow blind people to see. Not a new idea, it goes back to the
TV shows "Six Million Dollar Man" and "Star Trek", both of which
made use of an artificial eye. Essentially we have TV camera connected
to the optic nerve. Its not impossible, is it? We can't do it today,
we lack the technology and the know-how, but it is quite conceivable
that some time in the next 50-100 years it may be done. Certainly
there is current research going on.
What happens if we unplug the eye and connect to optic nerve
to a DVD showing a movie? Suddenly we can BE Harry Potter
Much more, we can play a computer generated artificial reality
and control with our hands and body movement and actually
fly a broomstick in what would appear to us as reality.

Here's some simple logic for you.
You cannot build it unless you imagine it first.
ALL of our technology is the result of somebody's imagination.
If you lack imagination, you lack the ability to create.

Rot. Just start piling things up. You may have no "idea" what the
finished thing will be

The problem we are having in this discussion is one of definition.
Your definition of a ghost is the popular idea of a disembodied
spirit that goes around haunting houses, usually maliciously. It is a
concept that is prehistoric. There is a holy ghost that resides
in the imagination of many people, along with angels and fairies.
My definition of a ghost is a spirit that is capable of changing
reality. I AM a ghost. I rely on matter to exist, by *I* am not
this body in which *I* reside, and neither are you. I can cause
an object on my desk to rise into the air before me and settle
gently back down to the surface again, by thinking about it. So
can you.

lol End of this, I'll probably be outta here. Anyone who believes in
levitating bodies through the "power of the mind" will probably be
found in Dinky's file.

A computer program is a ghost. It controls and directs the
behaviour of the machine, but it has no substance of its own.
The TV image is a ghost.

Nope! The product of electrons impinging on the screen, thereby
creating certain emissions of EMR

Negative numbers are ghostly in character. They are ideas,
not substance. I cannot steal the number 2 and prevent you from
using it as I could steal your car. Negative numbers are less than
zero BECAUSE I SAY THEY ARE, in agreement with the vast
majority, and because we can use that definition to make perfect
sense of the world around us. Negative numbers are a tool for communication
only.
Disagreeing with a definition serves no purpose.

No. It is "defining" that which doesn't, never has, and never will,
EXIST in nature which is a pure waste of mental application
|
| |After all, I just wrote the word, so they MUST exist.
|
| Well, of course. You pushed an array of buttons in the correct sequence
that
| conveyed to me the concept "(You) just wrote the word, so they MUST
exist".
| Getting your fingers to do that took signals carried via nerves to
control
| the muscles that caused the fingers to move where YOU wanted then to go,
| those signals originated in the physical brain which is as near
identical to
| mine as your computer is to mine, but YOU are very different person
(mind,
| spirit, ghost) to me. My body is of no interest to you, or yours to me.
We
| are communicating over thousands of miles, mind to mind, ghost to ghost.
We
| are embodied spirits.
|
| Not me! "Human spirit" is great for those who fear carking it- the
| "afterlife" soothes their fears.

Who mentioned afterlife? I'm talking about this life. I'm even raising the
question, what is your definition of life? Is a tree alive? There's quite
a lot of dead wood in this newsgroup, incapable of individual thought
but well able to scream "idiot" because they are unable to comprehend
anything beyond what they were taught in their youth.

"Life: a molecule which can replicate itself"
(are you still "alive" after you head is severed? Hint: the hair goes
on growing for hours (days))

| Future anatomical and biological
| sciences will show that our brains work very closely along the lines
| of these computers- powered by chemically generated electrical energy,
| and entailing the biological equivalents of RAM and ROM

I agree, but take that concept further. If we made a model of a brain
(it really doesn't matter if it operates by optics, electronically,
positronically
(as Asimov mildly suggested), hydraulically or on puffs of air, so long as
it has switches that toggle in an organized way, then the possiblity exists
for artificial intelligence, and research is underway in that area. if we
go a step further and exacly model YOUR brain, and at the same time
set its state (make the switches in the same position as you are at this
moment) and tun it on, that artificial brain IS you.

No way. You have the basis, but without the implanted history
(experiences) it will NOT operate in the same way. (I am assuming that
you have exactly copied the DNA)

You are the ghost, cloned. And that has the natural conseqence of
eternal life. Not by begging some imagined god and promising to be
good, but by science. We can BE gods, we have it in us to do so.
We first used our own muscle. Then we used animal muscle.
Then we used steam engines for muscle. Then we made some
minor improvement on the same principle and used diesel and such.
Then electricity to provide muscle. And 60 years ago, we made
a dramatic paradigm shift. We started using machines to think for
us, from the humble calculator to the computer. It is not going to
stop. Man will create god, and in his own image. It has already
begun.

|
|
| | This mathemagics is what brings understanding of reality to a halt.
|
| For you, maybe. I have no trouble distinguishing "reality" as you mean
it,
| the interaction of material objects (matter), and words such as
| "understanding" which have no material content.

That arguement is just as valid for the DHR's. If we accept that
anyone's "imagination" can alter/explain/predict reality, then their
ideas are as valid as yours. I don't! The imagination is NOT reality,
and if an observer sees something about which he is mistaken, then he
is just that- WRONG.
|
| Think about it! It is the "imaginary" piece of train that is
| "vanished" under SR (the LT's). How can something vanish, which only
| existed as "an idea" in the first place?

I've thought about much more than you, my friend.
Hi, Al!

|
|
| | Mathemarazzi confuse (-) between a position, or a direction, and "less
| | than zero".
| I'm afraid it is you that is confused. (-) is a symbol that conveys an
idea,
| just as "abcde...xyz" are symbols. When placed in the correct order,
they
| form words, examples of which are "trout", "elephant", "me", "not",
"into"
| and "Jim". We then construct them into sentences, we convey ideas.
| Mathematics uses a far more precise shorthand than English, but it is a
| language to convey ideas nevertheless. In English I use far more symbols
| than I do in mathematics, but both languages convey ideas.

In English they are called "spelling or gramatical errors"!!!!!!
|
| I can have an "idea" that a wolf ate a sheep. I CANNOT have an idea
| that a wolf ate a sheep which had NEVER existed.
| Give me here an example of something which has not existed previously:

Everything we've invented, of course. I think you must have lost it! :-)

So give me a quick run down on how the sub-atomic particles and energy
which comprise the basis of our inventions was done. If you can do
this, you will have "found it"

|
| Example:
| "The square on the hypotenuse is equal to the sum of the squares on the
| other two sides". A great deal of that is missing. I haven't use the
word
| "triangle", I have not specified that it is a right-angled triangle, I
| haven't defined "square". I expect you, the reader, to accept what I
mean by
| implication. The language of mathematics carries the same idea, but in
| shorthand.
|
| Get a grip! "Hypotenuse" gives all the information about the situation
| right there!

Of course it does, if 'hypotenuse' is defined and understood. Get a grip!

|
| z^2 = x^2+y^2.
| When you see such an equation read it most carefully because it is
shorthand
| and contains a paragraph of English. The reason most people have
difficulty
| with mathematics is they haven't learned the language and want to speed
| read. That is a skill that only comes after practice, like playing the
| piano. If the equation is familiar it is easy to read. If it is
unfamiliar,
| it is harder to read.
| Translate this into English:
| ½[tau(0,0,0,t)+tau(0,0,0,t+x'/(c-v)+x'/(c+v))] = tau(x',0,0,t+x'/(c-v)).
| I'm not going to, it'll take a page, but you should if you want to
| understand relativity, and you cannot find what is wrong with it if you
| don't understand
| it,even though you may have a gut feel something is wrong. Nitpicking
the
| meaning of 'minus' isn't going to be heard by anyone.
|
| Fantastic! Calculus was developed to handle "averages"/changes, right?

No. Whatever gave you that idea? I can't think of anything further from
averages that would relate to differentiation or integration. The
instantaneous velocity is most definitely NOT the average velocity. A
simple example:
Defining velocity = distance travelled/ time to travel, my average velocity
is zero, I am back at my desk. Zero distance travelled per day, every day.
I did take my car yesterday to conduct some business and my instantaneous
velocity was as high as 45 mph. Integrating the distance, I still get zero.

| So if the velocity of light NEVER ALTERS, why would calculus EVER be
| required to deal with its propagation????????

So that Einstein can pretend he's a smart-arse, of course. It's done to
impress people.



|
| | The concepts you have given as examples are cases in
| | point; the sqrt of a negative number has the same reality factor as
| | the neighbour's daughter's "imaginary friend".
|
| As with z^2 = x^2+y^2 where a right-triangle is implied, the beauty of
| mathematics is that we can extend the concept to forces or velocities,
and
| in doing so we deal with negative quantities. In the English language
we
| use the term "pull" and "push", in the Mathematic language we say '+'
and
| '-'. When we write 'sqrt()', either pull or push is implied, as the
| right-angled triangle is implied in z^2= x^2+z^2.
|
| Spot on! Force is ALWAYS poitive (0) (so is distance/velocity)

Not by my definition. push = -pull.
NOTE: by my DEFINITION.
You pull the door from the outside, I push the door from the inside. What's
different? We each face the door and each other. Your coordinate frame
is rotated 180 degrees from mine. A coordinate frame is a mathematical
entity and as such I will continue to use (-) in the mathematical sense to
describe
the situation. If I don't, I'll have to say 'pull' and 'push' in English and
give up
mathematical shorthand.


|
| Are we going to accept
| | her view of nature??????
|
| That depends on what was said, our understanding of the language it was
| uttered in, the context in which it was said and whether it was
logically
| valid.
| My neighbour's daughter's friend said the next bus is due at 2:07.
| However, my neighbour's daughter is not a malicious child, although she
is
| given to flights of fancy. I suspect she means at the local bus stop and
not
| the Greyhound terminal in New York, and I suspect she means this
afternoon.
| I shall go to the bus stop at 2:00pm, I am meeting a friend from the
bus,
| the arrival may be early. Doubtless the child will grow out of talking
to
| her dolls, although millions of Christians will never grow out of
talking to
| their imaginary god.
|
| You'll miss alot of buses.
I think perhaps you already have
Androcles.

Good thing too! Otherwise I would be on the "Greystein Express", on
the way to the blind end of the tunnel

Jim G
c'=c+v

"Jim Greenfield" wrote in message
om...
| "Androcles" wrote in message
...
| "Jim Greenfield" wrote in message
| om...
|
| | | | Have a look at how your computer works. There are a series of
0,1
| ,
| | | | or (+1) if you like.
| | |
| | | Not really... it uses voltages.
| | |
| | | Nope! Code 11111100000100101100101010110010010010000110011011 0....
| | | ........not a minus 1 to be seen!
| |
| | What do you mean, nope?
| | I can assure you, MY computer uses voltages.
| |
| | And NOT this code??
|
| Oh, you mean a theoretical computer, like a Turing Machine, designed by
the
| mathematician and Enigma codebreaker, Alan Turing.
| That's the theory of computing, not HOW my computer WORKS.
|
| I believe you must be missing the point (deliberately?)
| The silicon atoms are either 'charged' or 'not charged'- there is NO
| third possibility. Whatever keys the programmer uses to "work" the
| computer have J*S to do with it. They are either yes/no on/off
| 0/(1) etc
| THAT is HOW a computer "operates"
|
| I had a look at how my computer WORKS, and that is by electricity. If
you
| look inside you'll see a power supply unit, or PSU. It has
| some coloured wire coming out of it. Black for ground, yellow for +5V,
| red for +12V and a rather strange blue one that doesn't exist: -12V.
| If I connect an LED across +12 and ground (LED means Light Emitting
Diode so
| I have to connect it the right way round or it won't glow) I get the
same
| result as
| if I'd connected it from ground to -12V. I call the -12V "less than
zero".
|
|
|
| | You need a better understanding of the process.
|
| You need a better understanding of the question.
|
| In that case, I invite you to place your finger in the negative side
| of a power socket, and describe the "less than zero" jolt you receive.

Been done. I got myself strapped across 440V RMS once. The less than zero
jolt was quite powerful, it got me tea and sympathy. Perhaps you
think we should call the less-than-zero -12V from the PSU something else.
Why you want to nitpick a negative voltage or whether push is different from
pull I don't know, but I'm rapidly tiring of your pointless argument.



|
| | It expresses TWO ONLY possibilities in nature; an "is" or an "is not".
|
| Yes, that is what George Boole based his algebra on, and it is binary by
its
| character. That is taken care of in the real computer +5V (IS NOT) and
| ground or 0V (IS).
| The LED I use to test the presence of -12V doesn't work as well if
connected
| to +5V. It says to me "I'm not glowing, therefore IS NOT" and I take
that to
| mean this is not the -12Voltage.
|
| as above
|
|
| | There is NO third possibility in nature. There is 0 or 0 In no case
| | is there a 0
|
| Sure there is. That's why I have -12V from the PSU.
|
| Rubbish.

Ok, if you won't listen to reason...
*plonk*
Androcles.

Hi Jim, how ya doing.

"Jim Greenfield" wrote in message
om...
"Androcles" wrote in message
...
"Jim Greenfield" wrote in message
om...

| | | Have a look at how your computer works. There are a series of 0,1
,
| | | or (+1) if you like.
| |
| | Not really... it uses voltages.
| |
| | Nope! Code 11111100000100101100101010110010010010000110011011 0....
| | ........not a minus 1 to be seen!
|
| What do you mean, nope?
| I can assure you, MY computer uses voltages.
|
| And NOT this code??

Oh, you mean a theoretical computer, like a Turing Machine, designed by the
mathematician and Enigma codebreaker, Alan Turing.
That's the theory of computing, not HOW my computer WORKS.

I believe you must be missing the point (deliberately?)
The silicon atoms are either 'charged' or 'not charged'- there is NO
third possibility. Whatever keys the programmer uses to "work" the
computer have J*S to do with it. They are either yes/no on/off
0/(1) etc
THAT is HOW a computer "operates"

No it isn't. I suggest you read some datasheets before
trying to tell people how things work. The logic states
can be represented by anything you like as long as they
are distinguishable. Most computers use voltages though
currents are equally valid (look up IIL or "I squared
logic"), and in the future perhaps quantum states will
carry the information. The modem you use to connect to
the internet probably uses amplitude and phase-change
to represent data and is highly unlikely to be binary
unless you have a _very_ old modem.

The device I am currently working with has switchable
thresholds to match the surrounding circuitry. We use it
in 3.3V mode where a logic 1 is a voltage in the range
+2.0V to +3.6V while logic 0 is between -0.3V and +0.8V.
In 2.5V mode, logic 1 is +1.7V to +2.8V while logic 0 is
from -0.3V to +0.7V.

We are interfacing to an old system where logic 1 is
any voltage more negative than -32V and logic 0 is any
voltage more positive than -5V and we translate between
them using opto-isolators where logic 1 is an input
current greater than 0.5mA and logic 0 is less than
0.2mA giving output currents of -0.25mA and -0.1mA
respectively (50% CTR, active pull down).

Devices are actually operated by voltages, logic levels
are merely the interpretations we apply.

best regards
George