Is the Universe a blackhole? Tell me why I'm wrong!

(1) First conjectu Universe is a blackhole.

Sometimes the answer is just so obvious, that you wonder why other's
haven't thought of it already. Well, the fact is that probably lots of
people have thought of it, but no one has been able to come up with a
conclusive argument yet. Here's mine:

Mass of the Observable Universe ~~ 3.4×10^54 kg (kilograms)

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=mass+of+universe

Radius of the Observable Universe = 46 billion ly (light years)

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=radius+of+universe

The Schartzchild Radius of a mass the size of the Universe = 533.7
billion ly (light years)

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i...%9710%5E54+kg+

So, 46 billion light-years 533.7 billion light-years, therefore the
universe is sitting in a volume much less than its own Schartzchild
Radius. Therefore, the Universe is inside a blackhole. That's just based
on the observable universe's mass, the greater universe must be even
more massive and therefore even more likely that we're in a blackhole.

(2) Second conjectu Universe started out (Big Bang) as a whitehole.

The Universe started out as a whitehole, because the Cosmic Microwave
Background Radiation looks just like the event horizon of a whitehole.
Einstein's equations predict that whiteholes should exist just as much
as blackholes. Blackholes and whiteholes have similar features,
including event horizons; whiteholes however have white event horizons
which are incredibly bright rather than incredibly dark. In either case,
you cannot see what's behind the border of an event horizon whether it's
a black or whitehole. The CMBR is completely perfectly opaque, just like
the event horizon of a whitehole should be.

My conclusion? The Universe is a container with a wall made by a
blackhole event horizon, which prevents us from viewing anything outside
of it. At the same time, we started out as a whitehole. So the whitehole
is the spout that filled up this blackhole.

Yousuf Khan

Dear Yousuf Khan:

On Sunday, March 30, 2014 7:31:54 AM UTC-7, Yousuf Khan wrote:
(1) First conjectu Universe is a blackhole.

Sometimes the answer is just so obvious, that you wonder
why other's haven't thought of it already. Well, the fact
is that probably lots of people have thought of it, but
no one has been able to come up with a conclusive
argument yet.

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/gr/oz1.html
.... just as you cross the event horizon into a new Universe, so did "we" cross one to get here.

Now how do you disprove this? Yes its nice, it helps to talk about what happens "before the Big Bang", and it helps explain the bathtub curve that Universal expansion rate has formed (initial formation of interior spacetime .... inflation, the fall to the central singularity... stagnation, and contact with the singularity... acceleration).

David A. Smith

On 30/03/2014 11:50 AM, dlzc wrote:
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/gr/oz1.html ... just as you cross the
event horizon into a new Universe, so did "we" cross one to get
here.

No we were created in here. We didn't enter the blackhole from the
outside, we were created right inside the blackhole. Or rather we were
created by the whitehole which filled up this blackhole.

The turbulence of the energy rushing in through the whitehole spout
created the "soap bubbles" that filled our universe. The soap bubbles
ranged in size from galactic superclusters all of the way down to the
scale of subatomic particles.

However, I don't know what you're trying to say with the link up above
though. So please explain your point there.

Now how do you disprove this? Yes its nice, it helps to talk about
what happens "before the Big Bang", and it helps explain the bathtub
curve that Universal expansion rate has formed (initial formation of
interior spacetime ... inflation, the fall to the central
singularity... stagnation, and contact with the singularity...
acceleration).

One thing that this theory can do is prove what happens inside a
blackhole. We always say we can't tell what happens inside a blackhole
below its event horizon, but if we are inside a blackhole ourselves,
then we know exactly what happens inside a blackhole -- we're living it.
So Stephen Hawking and the rest of "blackhole firewall" crowd are wrong,
there is no such thing as a wall of fire lining the inside of the event
horizon of a blackhole. Rather the fire gets redirected through a
whitehole into a new universe.

Also another implication of this is that our universe is not limited to
the original size of the blackhole that connected to our whitehole.
Let's say that all child universes are created by blackholes within
parent universes. The blackhole in the parent universe would not be the
source of the matter that comes out in the child universe. Rather the
source of the matter and energy in the new universe would be the huge
quantum vacuum energy, or Zero-Point energy (ZP), that permeates space.
So it wouldn't matter if you got a tiny little 3 Solar Mass stellar
blackhole or a 1 billion Solar Mass central galactic blackhole, they
would all produce universes much larger than themselves. The only
purpose that these parent blackholes serve is as funnel constrictor (aka
a carburetor) device to concentrate the ZP energy. There's no other way
to constrict the ZP energy, except through a blackhole funnel. The ZP
energy rushes through the blackhole, then expands out through the
whitehole. In the process, the ZP energy is frothed up and turns into
new matter (chaotic flow) and radiation (laminar flow). This serves as
the "quantum fluctuation" inside the ZP energy that is regarded as the
source of the Big Bang.

Yousuf Khan

Dear Yousuf Khan:

On Sunday, March 30, 2014 9:59:37 AM UTC-7, Yousuf Khan wrote:
On 30/03/2014 11:50 AM, dlzc wrote:

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/gr/oz1.html
... just as you cross the event horizon into a new
Universe, so did "we" cross one to get here.

No we were created in here. We didn't enter the
blackhole from the outside,

I meant our quarks, or protons/electrons... not our forms.

we were created right inside the blackhole. Or rather we
were created by the whitehole which filled up this blackhole.

The turbulence of the energy rushing in through the
whitehole spout created the "soap bubbles" that filled our
universe. The soap bubbles ranged in size from galactic
superclusters all of the way down to the scale of subatomic
particles.

Mox nix.

However, I don't know what you're trying to say with
the link up above though. So please explain your point
there.

If I have to explain, then you did not follow the yellow brick road. It explains how an interior Universe is formed, just like the outer Universe... same rules.

Now how do you disprove this? Yes its nice, it helps
to talk about what happens "before the Big Bang", and
it helps explain the bathtub curve that Universal
expansion rate has formed (initial formation of
interior spacetime ... inflation, the fall to the central
singularity... stagnation, and contact with the singularity...
acceleration).

One thing that this theory can do is prove what happens
inside a blackhole. We always say we can't tell what
happens inside a blackhole below its event horizon, but
if we are inside a blackhole ourselves, then we know
exactly what happens inside a blackhole -- we're living it.

Yep.

So Stephen Hawking and the rest of "blackhole firewall"
crowd are wrong,

Not in the slightest. What is happening as new interior spacetime is produced? How many times is a bit of matter or energy reingested by any given black hole, given Hawking radiation?

there is no such thing as a wall of fire lining the
inside of the event horizon of a blackhole. Rather the
fire gets redirected through a whitehole into a new universe.

Same place. Shred matter across an event horizon, then let it recombine and it releases the CMBR glow, or something like it.

Also another implication of this is that our universe is
not limited to the original size of the blackhole that
connected to our whitehole. Let's say that all child
universes are created by blackholes within parent
universes. The blackhole in the parent universe would not
be the source of the matter that comes out in the child
universe. Rather the source of the matter and energy in
the new universe would be the huge quantum vacuum energy,
or Zero-Point energy (ZP), that permeates space.

No such implication exists. As far as ZPE,,, what does matter and energy from the distant future quantum tunnelling out as Hawking Radiation do for you?

David A. Smith

On 30/03/2014 9:55 PM, dlzc wrote:
Dear Yousuf Khan:

On Sunday, March 30, 2014 9:59:37 AM UTC-7, Yousuf Khan wrote:
On 30/03/2014 11:50 AM, dlzc wrote:

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/gr/oz1.html ... just as you cross
the event horizon into a new Universe, so did "we" cross one to
get here.

No we were created in here. We didn't enter the blackhole from the
outside,

I meant our quarks, or protons/electrons... not our forms.

And that is what I meant too.

we were created right inside the blackhole. Or rather we were
created by the whitehole which filled up this blackhole.

The turbulence of the energy rushing in through the whitehole spout
created the "soap bubbles" that filled our universe. The soap
bubbles ranged in size from galactic superclusters all of the way
down to the scale of subatomic particles.

Mox nix.

And why doesn't it matter?

However, I don't know what you're trying to say with the link up
above though. So please explain your point there.

If I have to explain, then you did not follow the yellow brick road.
It explains how an interior Universe is formed, just like the outer
Universe... same rules.

Well, that link was a little bit too much Dorothy and not enough of
"just get to the point".

Now how do you disprove this? Yes its nice, it helps to talk
about what happens "before the Big Bang", and it helps explain
the bathtub curve that Universal expansion rate has formed
(initial formation of interior spacetime ... inflation, the fall
to the central singularity... stagnation, and contact with the
singularity... acceleration).

One thing that this theory can do is prove what happens inside a
blackhole. We always say we can't tell what happens inside a
blackhole below its event horizon, but if we are inside a blackhole
ourselves, then we know exactly what happens inside a blackhole --
we're living it.

Yep.

Inflation and Dark Energy could be explained with the same mechanism too.

So Stephen Hawking and the rest of "blackhole firewall" crowd are
wrong,

Not in the slightest. What is happening as new interior spacetime is
produced? How many times is a bit of matter or energy reingested by
any given black hole, given Hawking radiation?

If the universe dies a heat death, then it will have disappeared due to
Hawking Radiation. The universe's event horizon would have faded away,
and this universe would have gone back to just the quantum void where it
came from, which in itself might be a universe of a sort.

there is no such thing as a wall of fire lining the inside of the
event horizon of a blackhole. Rather the fire gets redirected
through a whitehole into a new universe.

Same place. Shred matter across an event horizon, then let it
recombine and it releases the CMBR glow, or something like it.

It doesn't even have to be matter, it could be energy too. Either case,
it's energy in the end.

Now one thing about a blackhole is that all particles falling into a
blackhole have their futures towards the singularity in the center. So
all particles will appear to leave that singularity at exactly the same
time. Meaning anything and everything that's been ingested, no matter
what time, has already looked like it got spewed out of the Big Bang.

Also another implication of this is that our universe is not
limited to the original size of the blackhole that connected to our
whitehole. Let's say that all child universes are created by
blackholes within parent universes. The blackhole in the parent
universe would not be the source of the matter that comes out in
the child universe. Rather the source of the matter and energy in
the new universe would be the huge quantum vacuum energy, or
Zero-Point energy (ZP), that permeates space.

No such implication exists.

It's quite likely that the universe created by the blackhole are being
redirected toward a different set of dimensions than the one in which
the blackhole itself was created. So the child universe would not smash
into the parent universe.

As far as ZPE,,, what does matter and
energy from the distant future quantum tunnelling out as Hawking
Radiation do for you?


Well, if the universe's maximum boundaries are 533.7 billion
light-years, and the universe has only grown to 46 billion light-years
so far, then we're a long way from seeing the external boundaries of the
universe. Until we can view the external boundaries, we won't know if
Hawking Radiation is happening or not. The light from that part of the
universe hasn't had a chance to reach us yet.

Yousuf Khan

On Sunday, March 30, 2014 9:59:37 AM UTC-7, Yousuf Khan wrote:
On 30/03/2014 11:50 AM, dlzc wrote:

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/gr/oz1.html ... just as you cross the

event horizon into a new Universe, so did "we" cross one to get

here.



No we were created in here. We didn't enter the blackhole from the

outside, we were created right inside the blackhole. Or rather we were

created by the whitehole which filled up this blackhole.



The turbulence of the energy rushing in through the whitehole spout

created the "soap bubbles" that filled our universe. The soap bubbles

ranged in size from galactic superclusters all of the way down to the

scale of subatomic particles.



However, I don't know what you're trying to say with the link up above

though. So please explain your point there.



Now how do you disprove this? Yes its nice, it helps to talk about

what happens "before the Big Bang", and it helps explain the bathtub

curve that Universal expansion rate has formed (initial formation of

interior spacetime ... inflation, the fall to the central

singularity... stagnation, and contact with the singularity...

acceleration).



One thing that this theory can do is prove what happens inside a

blackhole. We always say we can't tell what happens inside a blackhole

below its event horizon, but if we are inside a blackhole ourselves,

then we know exactly what happens inside a blackhole -- we're living it.

So Stephen Hawking and the rest of "blackhole firewall" crowd are wrong,

there is no such thing as a wall of fire lining the inside of the event

horizon of a blackhole. Rather the fire gets redirected through a

whitehole into a new universe.



Also another implication of this is that our universe is not limited to

the original size of the blackhole that connected to our whitehole.

Let's say that all child universes are created by blackholes within

parent universes. The blackhole in the parent universe would not be the

source of the matter that comes out in the child universe. Rather the

source of the matter and energy in the new universe would be the huge

quantum vacuum energy, or Zero-Point energy (ZP), that permeates space.

So it wouldn't matter if you got a tiny little 3 Solar Mass stellar

blackhole or a 1 billion Solar Mass central galactic blackhole, they

would all produce universes much larger than themselves. The only

purpose that these parent blackholes serve is as funnel constrictor (aka

a carburetor) device to concentrate the ZP energy. There's no other way

to constrict the ZP energy, except through a blackhole funnel. The ZP

energy rushes through the blackhole, then expands out through the

whitehole. In the process, the ZP energy is frothed up and turns into

new matter (chaotic flow) and radiation (laminar flow). This serves as

the "quantum fluctuation" inside the ZP energy that is regarded as the

source of the Big Bang.


Yousuf Khan

There's no telling what's in a black hole.

William Mook repeated what others have thought, that black holes are time portals or star-gates, acting like cosmic computer nodes or routers, whereas packets of entangled photons exit via the poles of what are likely flat disk BHs, and time is thereby meaningless.

Therefore, if we want FTL capability we'll simply have to enter a BH, and hope for the best outcome. Perhaps you should go first.

Dear Yousuf Khan:

On Monday, March 31, 2014 6:18:52 AM UTC-7, Yousuf Khan wrote:
On 30/03/2014 9:55 PM, dlzc wrote:
The turbulence of the energy rushing in through
the whitehole spout created the "soap bubbles"
that filled our universe. The soap bubbles
ranged in size from galactic superclusters all
of the way down to the scale of subatomic
particles.

Mox nix.

And why doesn't it matter?

Sorry, I thought that meant "a rose by any other name". You and I, to this point agree.

....
However, I don't know what you're trying to say
with the link up above though. So please explain
your point there.

If I have to explain, then you did not follow the
yellow brick road. It explains how an interior
Universe is formed, just like the outer Universe...
same rules.

Well, that link was a little bit too much Dorothy
and not enough of "just get to the point".

OK, but the inside of the event horizon, *is* our white hole.

....
about what happens "before the Big Bang", and
it helps explain the bathtub curve that
Universal expansion rate has formed (initial
formation of interior spacetime ... inflation,
the fall to the central singularity...
stagnation, and contact with the singularity...
acceleration).

....
Inflation and Dark Energy could be explained with
the same mechanism too.

Yes, that is what I said above. Kruskal (or Eddington) metric diverges to an interior spacetime from the exterior radial coordinate. This is inflation.

So Stephen Hawking and the rest of "blackhole
firewall" crowd are wrong,

Not in the slightest. What is happening as new
interior spacetime is produced? How many times is
a bit of matter or energy reingested by any given
black hole, given Hawking radiation?

If the universe dies a heat death, then it will
have disappeared due to Hawking Radiation.

Howso? Did the time coordinates 0 thru 142 billion years then somehow disappear? Did those evaporating bits not also fall back in, perhaps many, many times?

The universe's event horizon would have faded away,

No, not until the container Universe cools enough. And exterior time has NOTHING to do with the time in our Universe. Whenever something falls across that event horizon, it enters our Universe at "the Big Bang" or whatever.

and this universe would have gone back to just the
quantum void where it came from, which in itself
might be a universe of a sort.

I agree with the latter, and avoid the "quantum void" state the flatlanders keep peddling.

there is no such thing as a wall of fire lining
the inside of the event horizon of a blackhole.
Rather the fire gets redirected through a
whitehole into a new universe.

Same place. Shred matter across an event horizon,
then let it recombine and it releases the CMBR
glow, or something like it.

It doesn't even have to be matter, it could be
energy too. Either case, it's energy in the end.

Its matter too. When a black hole forms, it forms mostly from pure neutronium. Which will evaporate into protons and electrons in finite time, once the pressure is release by the formation of a new time axis. Which will appear as a space filling hydrogen plasma, and some heavier elements.

Now one thing about a blackhole is that all
particles falling into a blackhole have their
futures towards the singularity in the center.

But if you'd follow the link, you'd find out that singularity is a cold, dark, infinitely diffuse future... just like our future.

So all particles will appear to leave that
singularity at exactly the same time.

Time is meaningless at "infinite density" (flatlanders outside looking in), and "infinitely diffuse" (us inside when even virtual photons will never encounter anything again in this Universe).

Meaning anything and everything that's been
ingested, no matter what time, has already looked
like it got spewed out of the Big Bang.

And reingested how many times?

Also another implication of this is that our
universe is not limited to the original size of
the blackhole that connected to our whitehole.
Let's say that all child universes are created
by blackholes within parent universes. The
blackhole in the parent universe would not be
the source of the matter that comes out in
the child universe. Rather the source of the
matter and energy in the new universe would be
the huge quantum vacuum energy, or Zero-Point
energy (ZP), that permeates space.

No such implication exists.

It's quite likely that the universe created by the
blackhole are being redirected toward a different
set of dimensions than the one in which the
blackhole itself was created.

Unless you mean what is clearly describe in the link, a new internal spacetime that is established at/near the event horizon, it is NOT "quite likely"..

So the child universe would not smash into the parent
universe.

It cannot smash, since it is "bound" at the event horizon, and interior spacetime "only consumes" the interior radial coordinate.

As far as ZPE,,, what does matter and energy from
the distant future quantum tunnelling out as Hawking
Radiation do for you?

Well, if the universe's maximum boundaries are
533.7 billion light-years, and the universe has
only grown to 46 billion light-years so far, then
we're a long way from seeing the external boundaries
of the universe.

But it all quantum tunnels "past" any given *now*. Including *right now*.

Until we can view the external boundaries,

The CMBR curtain is one. The other is invisible, since "time stops".

we won't know if Hawking Radiation is happening
or not.

We've made tiny black holes, and they have evaporated in fireballs. We *know* Hawking radiation exists, or Nature would have destroyed us with tiny black holes She has made.

The light from that part of the universe hasn't
had a chance to reach us yet.

There is no emitting surface there, and what is more, light does not propagate back in time.

David A. Smith

On 31/03/2014 3:09 PM, dlzc wrote:
Dear Yousuf Khan:

On Monday, March 31, 2014 6:18:52 AM UTC-7, Yousuf Khan wrote:
On 30/03/2014 9:55 PM, dlzc wrote:
The turbulence of the energy rushing in through the whitehole
spout created the "soap bubbles" that filled our universe. The
soap bubbles ranged in size from galactic superclusters all of
the way down to the scale of subatomic particles.

Mox nix.

And why doesn't it matter?

Sorry, I thought that meant "a rose by any other name". You and I,
to this point agree.

Okay.

However, I don't know what you're trying to say with the link
up above though. So please explain your point there.

If I have to explain, then you did not follow the yellow brick
road. It explains how an interior Universe is formed, just like
the outer Universe... same rules.

Well, that link was a little bit too much Dorothy and not enough of
"just get to the point".

OK, but the inside of the event horizon, *is* our white hole.

I'm thinking of just the CMBR as being our whitehole event horizon.
We've now emerged from the whitehole and are now travelling away from it.

Inflation and Dark Energy could be explained with the same
mechanism too.

Yes, that is what I said above. Kruskal (or Eddington) metric
diverges to an interior spacetime from the exterior radial
coordinate. This is inflation.

I just picture it as fluid spilling out over the surface of a large
round sphere. The sphere is growing so the liquid flows fast at first,
and then more slowly as the sphere gets bigger, and starts to look flatter.

So Stephen Hawking and the rest of "blackhole firewall" crowd
are wrong,

Not in the slightest. What is happening as new interior
spacetime is produced? How many times is a bit of matter or
energy reingested by any given black hole, given Hawking
radiation?

If the universe dies a heat death, then it will have disappeared
due to Hawking Radiation.

Howso? Did the time coordinates 0 thru 142 billion years then
somehow disappear? Did those evaporating bits not also fall back in,
perhaps many, many times?

Anything that was reingested will again come out through the Big Bang,
at the opening; so it looks like everything that has entered and ever
will have entered in the future all come out at exactly the same time --
at the Big Bang. It all looks like it's coming all at once because our
interior coordinate of time is different than the external parent
universe's coordinate of time. The two time coordinates are likely
perpendicular to each other! So from the parent universe's POV, we might
see matter and what not entering at a slow pace over a long period of
time, but from our child universe perspective, it's all coming in at
once, and we call that the Big Bang.

So everything that will ever come in, has already come in.

and this universe would have gone back to just the quantum void
where it came from, which in itself might be a universe of a sort.

I agree with the latter, and avoid the "quantum void" state the
flatlanders keep peddling.

Who knows perhaps the first universe there ever was, came only from the
quantum void? All other universes since have come from other organized
universes.

It doesn't even have to be matter, it could be energy too. Either
case, it's energy in the end.

Its matter too. When a black hole forms, it forms mostly from pure
neutronium. Which will evaporate into protons and electrons in
finite time, once the pressure is release by the formation of a new
time axis. Which will appear as a space filling hydrogen plasma, and
some heavier elements.

I don't think it's pure neutronium when it turns into a blackhole,
otherwise it would've remained a neutron star. The whole idea of the
difference between a neutron star and a blackhole is that the
neutronium's degenerency pressure can't withstand the force of gravity
anymore. It likely all turns into photons inside the blackhole. Photons
have no degenerency pressure. And even though photons have no mass of
their own, they are restricted to the volume of the event horizon, and
whenever energy is restricted in its range, it becomes mass. Think of
the gluons, they too are massless and they too travel at the speed of
light, but they are restricted to the volume of the nucleus of the atom,
therefore they are racing around at the speed of light from quark to
quark, so they become 99% of the mass of an atom.

Now one thing about a blackhole is that all particles falling into
a blackhole have their futures towards the singularity in the
center.

But if you'd follow the link, you'd find out that singularity is a
cold, dark, infinitely diffuse future... just like our future.

It depends on which perspective we're talking about. The particles that
fall into the blackhole, from the perspective of the parent universe,
are all heading towards the singularity in the future. From within the
blackhole, all of these particles are coming from the past, in fact they
are the very first particles of the past, the Big Bang particles.

So all particles will appear to leave that singularity at exactly
the same time.

Time is meaningless at "infinite density" (flatlanders outside
looking in), and "infinitely diffuse" (us inside when even virtual
photons will never encounter anything again in this Universe).

Don't understand.

Meaning anything and everything that's been ingested, no matter
what time, has already looked like it got spewed out of the Big
Bang.

And reingested how many times?

Whatever amount of times. The amount that is reingested will always be
less than the amount lost. So at some point the amount lost will always
be more than the amount regained.

Also another implication of this is that our universe is not
limited to the original size of the blackhole that connected to
our whitehole. Let's say that all child universes are created
by blackholes within parent universes. The blackhole in the
parent universe would not be the source of the matter that
comes out in the child universe. Rather the source of the
matter and energy in the new universe would be the huge quantum
vacuum energy, or Zero-Point energy (ZP), that permeates
space.

No such implication exists.

It's quite likely that the universe created by the blackhole are
being redirected toward a different set of dimensions than the one
in which the blackhole itself was created.

Unless you mean what is clearly describe in the link, a new internal
spacetime that is established at/near the event horizon, it is NOT
"quite likely".

Yes, it's a brand new spacetime, at least from the point of view of the
new universe. However, if we look at it from the point of the view of
the multiverse and/or quantum void that you hate so much. There may be
11 dimensions (M-Theory) to choose from within the Void. If all
organized self-contained universes are 3+1 dimensional, then you can
choose any set of 4 dimensions to create perfectly self-contained
universes. And none of them have to share their set of spacetime's with
any other container universes, especially not their parent container
universes. There's 330 different combinations of ways to choose 4
dimensions out of 11.

combinations of 4 out of 11 - Wolfram|Alpha
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i...of+4+out+of+11

So the child universe would not smash into the parent universe.

It cannot smash, since it is "bound" at the event horizon, and
interior spacetime "only consumes" the interior radial coordinate.

The child universe cannot share any of the dimensions of the parent
universe. The child universe must be completely perpendicular to the
parent one. The Schartzchild radius of the blackhole's event horizon
inside the parent universe is just an entry point, the remainder of the
event horizon must be outside of these dimensions. Basically it's the
only point where the two universes intersect. The child universe would
have a larger event horizon bubble surrounding itself, protruding out
perpendicular to its parent's bubble. This larger bubble would exist
inside the larger 11-dimensional Void.

As far as ZPE,,, what does matter and energy from the distant
future quantum tunnelling out as Hawking Radiation do for you?

Well, if the universe's maximum boundaries are 533.7 billion
light-years, and the universe has only grown to 46 billion
light-years so far, then we're a long way from seeing the external
boundaries of the universe.

But it all quantum tunnels "past" any given *now*. Including *right
now*.

Don't understand.

Until we can view the external boundaries,

The CMBR curtain is one. The other is invisible, since "time
stops".

We don't know for sure that time stops. Although likely once the event
horizon disappears, all of the interior spacetime will be at equilibrium
with all of the exterior spacetime, so there would be no energy
differential to push things around.

Time wouldn't really stop, it would simply stop making sense anymore. We
wouldn't know which way is forward or backward anymore.

we won't know if Hawking Radiation is happening or not.

We've made tiny black holes, and they have evaporated in fireballs.
We *know* Hawking radiation exists, or Nature would have destroyed us
with tiny black holes She has made.

Have we made tiny blackholes? I must've missed the announcement. I
thought CERN dismissed those claims?

The light from that part of the universe hasn't had a chance to
reach us yet.

There is no emitting surface there, and what is more, light does not
propagate back in time.

That's true, but there must be some kind of way to detect it still, even
if the light doesn't come back towards us? Maybe it'll look like a
temperature? Perhaps we'll be closer than ever to absolute zero?

Yousuf Khan

Dear Yousuf Khan:

On Monday, March 31, 2014 8:14:46 PM UTC-7, Yousuf Khan wrote:
On 31/03/2014 3:09 PM, dlzc wrote:
....
OK, but the inside of the event horizon, *is*
our white hole.

I'm thinking of just the CMBR as being our
whitehole event horizon. We've now emerged from
the whitehole and are now travelling away from it.

Consider that with radial space being 90 degrees from exterior time, and interior time and interior space being then orthogonal to exterior time... for a bit, an exterior event horizon can look "time reversed" so it could look like a white hole.

Additionally, all the container Universe's CMBR radiation (it too should look just like us) over the black hole's history will enter at the Big Bang as perfect black body radiation.

....
So all particles will appear to leave that
singularity at exactly the same time.

Time is meaningless at "infinite density"
(flatlanders outside looking in), and
"infinitely diffuse" (us inside when even
virtual photons will never encounter anything
again in this Universe).

Don't understand.

Exterior looking in:
OK, someone (a flatlander) in the container Universe will say that all the matter and energy fell into the center and is compressed into and infinitely dense point. What is time dilation for an infinite value for g? Infinity. Time stops.

Interior, on a worldline:
We know we will expand until no particle will have any other particle in its future. Time stops here too. No forces, no light, no meaningful further expansion, nothing. Essentially a perfect state for a BEC to start quantum tunneling...

Meaning anything and everything that's been
ingested, no matter what time, has already
looked like it got spewed out of the Big
Bang.

And reingested how many times?

Whatever amount of times. The amount that is
reingested will always be less than the amount
lost. So at some point the amount lost will
always be more than the amount regained.

False in this Universe, so therefore false in our container Universe. Always bathed in (at minimum) CMBR radiation that establishes the balance point between continued growth, and the beginning of mass-loss via Hawking radiation.

....
Well, if the universe's maximum boundaries are
533.7 billion light-years, and the universe has
only grown to 46 billion light-years so far,
then we're a long way from seeing the external
boundaries of the universe.

But it all quantum tunnels "past" any given *now*.
Including *right now*.

Don't understand.

Outer-speak:
Our worldines extend from the event horizon of the container Universe, to the central singularity.

Inner-speak:
Our worldlines extend from the Big Bang event (whatever that is), to the infinitely diffuse future.

So if we stop at the center / future, but evaporate out some number of times, do we teleport directly outside or do we quantum tunnel from year 142 billion, past year 110 billion, past year 13.8 billion, to "before" year 0? Which makes this tunneling possible to be "zero-point energy", not that I expect such is necessary...

....
The CMBR curtain is one [boundary]. The other is
invisible, since "time stops".

We don't know for sure that time stops. Although
likely once the event horizon disappears, all of
the interior spacetime will be at equilibrium
with all of the exterior spacetime, so there would
be no energy differential to push things around.

Time wouldn't really stop, it would simply stop
making sense anymore. We wouldn't know which way
is forward or backward anymore.

If time flow is the result of net production of entropy, then a system that is at full entropy, no longer has time flow. I cannot prove this, of course...

we won't know if Hawking Radiation is happening
or not.

We've made tiny black holes, and they have
evaporated in fireballs. We *know* Hawking
radiation exists, or Nature would have destroyed
us with tiny black holes She has made.

Have we made tiny blackholes? I must've missed the
announcement. I thought CERN dismissed those claims?

We made them in the Tevatron too. But as soon as we make any such claim, "the herd" can be easily swayed to stop funding again. What do you think they can possibly say that cannot be used to scare the herd?

The light from that part of the universe hasn't
had a chance to reach us yet.

There is no emitting surface there, and what is
more, light does not propagate back in time.

That's true, but there must be some kind of way
to detect it still, even if the light doesn't
come back towards us? Maybe it'll look like a
temperature?

Maybe ZPE is that information, and maybe not. Frankly I think ZPE (whatever that is) is just the contents of the Universe on its way in.

Perhaps we'll be closer than ever to absolute zero?

CMBR has been seen to be 25K, then 9K, now 1K in forward time. So count on it.

So rather than "proving you wrong", I "welcome you to my nightmare"... ;-)

David A. Smith

On 01/04/2014 10:45 AM, dlzc wrote:
Dear Yousuf Khan:

On Monday, March 31, 2014 8:14:46 PM UTC-7, Yousuf Khan wrote:
On 31/03/2014 3:09 PM, dlzc wrote:
...
OK, but the inside of the event horizon, *is* our white hole.

I'm thinking of just the CMBR as being our whitehole event horizon.
We've now emerged from the whitehole and are now travelling away
from it.

Consider that with radial space being 90 degrees from exterior time,
and interior time and interior space being then orthogonal to
exterior time... for a bit, an exterior event horizon can look "time
reversed" so it could look like a white hole.

Additionally, all the container Universe's CMBR radiation (it too
should look just like us) over the black hole's history will enter at
the Big Bang as perfect black body radiation.

Well, I don't think we need to start thinking of time-reversal and
whatnot between external and internal views. Just need to realize that
whichever direction the flow of particles took, is our direction of
time. So simply from our point of view, we're looking at a whitehole
event horizon at the CMBR.

So all particles will appear to leave that singularity at
exactly the same time.

Time is meaningless at "infinite density" (flatlanders outside
looking in), and "infinitely diffuse" (us inside when even
virtual photons will never encounter anything again in this
Universe).

Don't understand.

Exterior looking in: OK, someone (a flatlander) in the container
Universe will say that all the matter and energy fell into the center
and is compressed into and infinitely dense point. What is time
dilation for an infinite value for g? Infinity. Time stops.

Well, time dilation doesn't even have to stop at infinite density. It
stops even before it gets to the exact center, it stops at the event
horizon.

Interior, on a worldline: We know we will expand until no particle
will have any other particle in its future. Time stops here too. No
forces, no light, no meaningful further expansion, nothing.
Essentially a perfect state for a BEC to start quantum tunneling...

We don't know if we'll expand until we get to the Big Rip, we may stop
well before that, but that would still mean that time stops.

If Quintessence is the mechanism of Dark Energy, then Quintessence is
time dependent, and it will keep going down over time, until Dark Energy
just stops. Again, this may be a mixed blessing, when Dark Energy stops,
time may also stop. Quintessence states that Einstein's Cosmological
Constant isn't that constant. The Cosmological Constant depends on the
percentage of ZPE that is being siphoned off by Dark Energy.

But then again, Dark Energy may just keep going on forever, just getting
closer and closer to zero. Dark Energy is already pretty close to zero
right now, it amounts to no more than 10^-9 J/m^3 right now, but the
calculated value of ZPE is 10^113 J/m^3, which is for all intents and
purposes is already zero in a calculator. So Dark Energy is using 122
orders of magnitude less energy than is available in the ZPE -- i.e. zero.

Whatever amount of times. The amount that is reingested will always
be less than the amount lost. So at some point the amount lost
will always be more than the amount regained.

False in this Universe, so therefore false in our container Universe.
Always bathed in (at minimum) CMBR radiation that establishes the
balance point between continued growth, and the beginning of
mass-loss via Hawking radiation.

We won't know it's false in this universe until we get close to the
container universe's internal event horizon. Hawking Radiation is
supposed to be really slow anyways for really large blackholes.

Perhaps Dark Energy is this mass-loss?

But it all quantum tunnels "past" any given *now*. Including
*right now*.

Don't understand.

Outer-speak: Our worldines extend from the event horizon of the
container Universe, to the central singularity.

Inner-speak: Our worldlines extend from the Big Bang event (whatever
that is), to the infinitely diffuse future.

So if we stop at the center / future, but evaporate out some number
of times, do we teleport directly outside or do we quantum tunnel
from year 142 billion, past year 110 billion, past year 13.8 billion,
to "before" year 0? Which makes this tunneling possible to be
"zero-point energy", not that I expect such is necessary...

First off, remember that for Hawking Radiation to work, the virtual
particles have to come from the outside, not the inside. A virtual
particle pair will have one of the pair fall into the blackhole while
the other one escapes for a period of time. The one that falls in will
have to annihilate with another member of its opposite particle inside
the blackhole to reduce the mass of the blackhole. So the Hawking
Radiation will have to come from the outer event horizon.

Secondly, I don't look at the ZPE as recycled energy. I think ZPE is the
intrinsic energy of each of the spacetime quanta itself. No matter how
large spacetime expands, the ZPE doesn't go down in density, the density
always stays the same more or less. So it's likely that the ZPE was what
was there before there were any container universes, and the container
universes are just using this store of pre-existing energy. The ZPE
absolutely dwarfs the energy output of everything, including the Big
Bang itself! From just a cubic meter of ZPE, you can create the entire
observable universe, 10^41 times over!

I look at the ZPE as the energy of the Void. Another way to look at it
is that the ZPE is the vast, deep ocean upon which our tiny little
universe floats like a feather on top of.


We don't know for sure that time stops. Although likely once the
event horizon disappears, all of the interior spacetime will be at
equilibrium with all of the exterior spacetime, so there would be
no energy differential to push things around.

Time wouldn't really stop, it would simply stop making sense
anymore. We wouldn't know which way is forward or backward
anymore.

If time flow is the result of net production of entropy, then a
system that is at full entropy, no longer has time flow. I cannot
prove this, of course...

I'm talking about the external-view, if we're looking at this universe
from the outside (god point of view). Of course the flatlanders inside
the container universe will stop to exist once time stops for them, but
even from a god point of view, we would not be able to tell which way
that container universe's time used to flow. It would all just slosh
around back and forth, and in fact we couldn't tell the time direction
from the space directions either.

We've made tiny black holes, and they have evaporated in
fireballs. We *know* Hawking radiation exists, or Nature would
have destroyed us with tiny black holes She has made.

Have we made tiny blackholes? I must've missed the announcement. I
thought CERN dismissed those claims?

We made them in the Tevatron too. But as soon as we make any such
claim, "the herd" can be easily swayed to stop funding again. What
do you think they can possibly say that cannot be used to scare the
herd?

Well, let's just chalk that one upto conspiracy theories. It may be
true, or may not, since it's being covered up.

Maybe ZPE is that information, and maybe not. Frankly I think ZPE
(whatever that is) is just the contents of the Universe on its way
in.

Going back to my ocean analogy. You know how when we view visualizations
of Einstein's General Relativity, and we see a big mass in the center
sitting around a compressed & curved elastic material, representing
gravity? The mass in the middle represents positive energy, while
gravity is the negative energy, which is balancing out the overall
energy budget to zero.

Well my feeling is that that elastic material is the ZPE, and that the
so-called zero-energy budget of the universe is not an absolute zero
energy, but an energy borrowed and returned to the ZPE. We create an
universe of matter and radiation (positive energy) from the ZPE, and we
give it back to the ZPE through gravity. So negative energy could be
looked upon as a depression in the ZPE, while positive energy is a spike
in the ZPE at certain points.

That would apply to the entire container universe itself. It might show
up as a depression in the ZPE from the exterior point of view.

So rather than "proving you wrong", I "welcome you to my
nightmare"... ;-)

Well, the nightmare isn't so much that we are living inside a blackhole,
but rather that our blackhole might evaporate one day.

Yousuf Khan