Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?

On Sunday, September 16, 2018 at 10:10:42 PM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:
On Saturday, September 15, 2018 at 9:22:52 PM UTC-6, Gary Harnagel wrote:

I've given an excellent reason why God must exist.
Consider 10^18 planets in the visible universe (never mind those in the
parts we cannot see), consider 1% of those being earth-like, consider
0.0001% of those having developed civilizations billions of years ago,
that still leaves 10^10 civilizations out there. All that is needed is
ONE of them to reach this point:

“There may be millions of inhabited worlds circling other suns, harboring
beings who to us would seem godlike, with civilizations and cultures
beyond our wildest dreams.� -- Arthur C. Clarke

What does that have to do with God?

Those would simply be finite mortal beings like us, just more advanced. Compared
to God, they would still be less than ants, even as we would be.

By definition:

There is only one God.

He is utterly and absolutely omniscient and omnipotent.

He has always existed and shall exist eternally.

And everything that exists was ultimately created by Him.

He, and He alone, exists simply for the sake of His own existence.

Advanced aliens may be worthy of our respect and even our obedience, but to
worship them, or anything that is less than God, is the sin of idolatry.

John Savard

On Sunday, September 16, 2018 at 10:10:42 PM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:

On Saturday, September 15, 2018 at 9:22:52 PM UTC-6, Gary Harnagel wrote:

I've given an excellent reason why God must exist.
Consider 10^18 planets in the visible universe (never mind those in the
parts we cannot see), consider 1% of those being earth-like, consider
0.0001% of those having developed civilizations billions of years ago,
that still leaves 10^10 civilizations out there. All that is needed is
ONE of them to reach this point:

“There may be millions of inhabited worlds circling other suns,
harboring beings who to us would seem godlike, with civilizations and
cultures beyond our wildest dreams.� -- Arthur C. Clarke

What does that have to do with God?

Those would simply be finite mortal beings like us, just more advanced.

But WOULD they be "finite" beings?

Compared to God, they would still be less than ants, even as we would be.

By definition:

There is only one God.

Is there? What about Jesus? What about the Holy Ghost?

"For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth,
(as there be gods many, and lords many,)� -- 1 Corinthians 8:5

The important thing about God (Or Gods?) is that His entire civilization
(the inhabitants of "heaven") are ONE in agreement, as Jesus prayed that
he and His disciples might be.

Also, in Genesis, one word translated as "God" is Elohim, which is a
plural.

He is utterly and absolutely omniscient and omnipotent.

Are those attributes absolute or relative?

He has always existed and shall exist eternally.

See above. Also, consider that Penrose thinks there's evidence of a
previous universe before the BB. Might a super-advanced civilization
be able to transport itself from a previous one to the present one?

Advanced aliens who are seemingly godlike do not measure up.

John Savard

We don't really KNOW this. Isn't it a bit arrogant for us to define God?
Given billions of years of evolution beyond our level, what will WE be
like? But WE have a shortcut:

"Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with
God" -- Philippians 2:6 [speaking of Christ]

"now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be:
but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall
see him as he is." -- 1 John 3:2

"And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ"
-- Romans 8:17

So when WE become "like him" and are His heirs, what will that make US?
If God has "always existed," why would ANYONE delude himself into believing
this is the FIRST time He has created beings and worlds? So there must be
a HUGE civilization out there from previous geneses, whether you consider
God strictly in the "Biblical" context or in the "godlike aliens" context.

Now, as I told Chris, I'm not saying this is exactly what I believe, but
the purpose of the argument is to demonstrate that atheism has a VERY
shaky foundation, to the point of absurdity.

Advanced aliens may be worthy of our respect and even our obedience,
but to worship them, or anything that is less than God, is the sin of
idolatry.

Consider God as being their representative, or their Leader, or whatever.

Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
RichA wrote in
:

Towards the end, Sagan, formerly a productive astrophysicist
from Cornell and publicizer of astronomy became a bit of a
pariah, wandering around, screeching at anyone who would listen
about the impending doom of "nuclear winter." Seems like Tyson
might be going the same way, or, he could just be trying to
promote another book. "Publish or perish?"

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/neil-de...litarization-o
f-space-new-book-accessory-to-war/

Tyson's always been a little too full of himself, but I stopped
taking him seriuosly about anything when 20 minutes of his Comos
ripoff was anti-Catholic hate propaganda based on . . . who knows,
but certainly not any historical events.

At this point, I wouldn't take his word for it on what day of the
week it is.

Some people call TV an "idiot box" or a "boob tube" for a good reason.

Nomen Nescio wrote in
:

Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
RichA wrote in
:

Towards the end, Sagan, formerly a productive astrophysicist
from Cornell and publicizer of astronomy became a bit of a
pariah, wandering around, screeching at anyone who would
listen about the impending doom of "nuclear winter." Seems
like Tyson might be going the same way, or, he could just be
trying to promote another book. "Publish or perish?"

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/neil-de...militarization
-o f-space-new-book-accessory-to-war/

Tyson's always been a little too full of himself, but I stopped
taking him seriuosly about anything when 20 minutes of his
Comos ripoff was anti-Catholic hate propaganda based on . . .
who knows, but certainly not any historical events.

At this point, I wouldn't take his word for it on what day of
the week it is.

Some people call TV an "idiot box" or a "boob tube" for a good
reason.

Indeed. Idiots watching idiots do and say idiotic things.

--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

On Sat, 15 Sep 2018 09:53:03 -0700 (PDT), Gary Harnagel
wrote:
No, it is NEVER ignored by science.

NEVER? You are sounding like an absolutist. :-)

That's the very definition of science. If you ignore available
evidence, you are not doing science.


And that's a good thing since "dogma" is a creation of man, not of
God.

God is also a creation of man, in a failed attempt to understand the
world.


And why would "human behavior apply to aliens?

Intelligent behaviour must apply to at least those aliens who are
able to reveal their existence to us. But to those aliens who are
happy to remains on their planet of origin and who we know nothing
about until we eventuellt travel to them, this does of course not
apply.


This is YOUR dogma. Many, many people have had such experiences.
They
are quite common. My grandmother did, my aunt did, as well as other
members of my family. You, of course, would label such things as
hallucinations or tricks of the mind, but doing so just exposes your

But of course, many people will have lots of experience with human
creations, and God is no exception to that. The religious experience
does exist, no question about that. However, the existence of the
object of worship is much more doubtful...

On Sun, 16 Sep 2018 21:10:39 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
wrote:
By definition:
There is only one God.

Not all religions would agree with that definition. Even Christianity
has problems with it, since it proclaims a trinity of the Father, the
Son, and the Holy Spirit - to Muslims this is polytheism. Catholics
and Orthodox Christians adds Virgin Mary, the saints and the angels
to this. And then we have Satan... there are a lot of supernatural
beings to keep track of here.

On Mon, 17 Sep 2018 06:15:00 -0700 (PDT), Gary Harnagel
wrote:
There is only one God.
Is there? What about Jesus? What about the Holy Ghost?
"For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in
earth,
(as there be gods many, and lords many,) -- 1 Corinthians 8:5
The important thing about God (Or Gods?) is that His entire
civilization
(the inhabitants of "heaven") are ONE in agreement, as Jesus prayed
that
he and His disciples might be.
Also, in Genesis, one word translated as "God" is Elohim, which is a
plural.

Interesting. You've just acknowledged that Christianity is a
polytheistic religion.

On Monday, September 17, 2018 at 11:14:29 PM UTC-6, Paul Schlyter wrote:

On Sat, 15 Sep 2018 09:53:03 -0700 (PDT), Gary Harnagel
wrote:

No, it is NEVER ignored by science.

NEVER? You are sounding like an absolutist. :-)

That's the very definition of science. If you ignore available
evidence, you are not doing science.

Evidence is NOT SUPPOSED to be ignored, but it has happened many times
in the past and may be happening as we communicate.

And that's a good thing since "dogma" is a creation of man, not of
God.

God is also a creation of man, in a failed attempt to understand the
world.

Where were you when I presented the alien civilizations hypothesis?

And why would "human behavior apply to aliens?

Intelligent behaviour must apply to at least those aliens who are
able to reveal their existence to us.

"Intelligent" is in the mind of the beholder. What WE consider intelligent
they might consider pure folly.

But to those aliens who are happy to remains on their planet of origin
and who we know nothing about until we eventuellt travel to them, this
does of course not apply.

I believe the galaxy and the universe has a large population, likely
in a uniform civilization, except for the johnny-come-latelies like
ourselves. If that's true, then we won't be allowed to interfere with
other developing cultures.

This is YOUR dogma. Many, many people have had such experiences.
They are quite common. My grandmother did, my aunt did, as well
as other members of my family. You, of course, would label such
things as hallucinations or tricks of the mind, but doing so just
exposes your ...

But of course, many people will have lots of experience with human
creations, and God is no exception to that. The religious experience
does exist, no question about that. However, the existence of the
object of worship is much more doubtful...

I think the problem comes about because people try to put God in a box.
He MUST have these attributes, He MUST have these characteristics, etc.

“we think everything in this universe has to conform to our paradigm
of what makes sense. Do you have any idea how arrogant that view
is and on how little of this universe we base it?� ― Robert Buettner

Also, in Genesis, one word translated as "God" is Elohim, which is a
plural.

Interesting. You've just acknowledged that Christianity is a
polytheistic religion.

Well, we both did when we pointed out the Father, Son and Holy Ghost :-)
However, polytheism typically envisions various gods at odds with one
another. Christianity, OTOH, has them in full agreement, working in
perfect harmony.

Paul Schlyter wrote in
:

On Sat, 15 Sep 2018 09:53:03 -0700 (PDT), Gary Harnagel
wrote:
No, it is NEVER ignored by science.

NEVER? You are sounding like an absolutist. :-)

That's the very definition of science. If you ignore available
evidence, you are not doing science.

And no True Scotsman would ever do that!


And that's a good thing since "dogma" is a creation of man, not
of
God.

God is also a creation of man, in a failed attempt to understand
the world.

Speaking of "not doing science," can you prove that? (Hint: No, you
can't, and more than you can prove the reverse. You will, of course,
claim otherwise, pretending you are literally the greatest scientific
and theological mind in the entire history of humanity, thus proving
that you, too, do not actually know what science *is*.)

--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

Gary Harnagel wrote in
:

On Monday, September 17, 2018 at 11:14:29 PM UTC-6, Paul
Schlyter wrote:

On Sat, 15 Sep 2018 09:53:03 -0700 (PDT), Gary Harnagel
wrote:

No, it is NEVER ignored by science.

NEVER? You are sounding like an absolutist. :-)

That's the very definition of science. If you ignore available
evidence, you are not doing science.

Evidence is NOT SUPPOSED to be ignored, but it has happened many
times in the past and may be happening as we communicate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

You are arguing with someone who does not know what science is, even
when he redefines it himself.

--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.