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Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?



 
 
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  #301  
Old October 13th 18, 06:07 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Quadibloc
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Default Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?

On Saturday, October 13, 2018 at 6:28:38 AM UTC-6, Gary Harnagel wrote:
Denying that a religion set up by
an individual (or group thereof) is efficacious is the real fantasy :-)


Well, yes, there is the placebo effect.

But if you want your prayers to be answered, there has to be an actual God on the
other end of the telephone line.

John Savard
  #302  
Old October 13th 18, 06:09 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Quadibloc
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Posts: 7,018
Default Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?

On Saturday, October 13, 2018 at 9:54:08 AM UTC-6, Gerald Kelleher wrote:
Next year will be 50 years since the Apollo mission which landed a person on the moon and yet none of you feel what has become of that innovative organisation or rather what happened as theorists eventually overtook it.

https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap170319.html

Primitive people ! - if this is what space exploration has accomplished then it would have been better not to have ventured there at all.


No, space exploration has not done anything as far as our notions of the simple
geometry of Earth's orbit is concerned, since this is all old news from long
before we went into space.

John Savard
  #303  
Old October 13th 18, 06:21 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Gerald Kelleher
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Posts: 1,551
Default Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?

The comments here are from the 'best-boys-in-the-class' so are therefore discounted in terms of substance yet, what is different with the manipulation of images of the Earth from space is something different from earlier Earth bound conclusions where effects were extrapolated indirectly as we participate in the motions of the planet-

https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap170319.html

On the September Equinox the Earth really looks and moves like this -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_S...-tilt-23.4.gif

The Brexit mentality is also the Royal Society mentality but this is what people get when they put the RA/Dec system in competition with the Lat/Long system and the 24 hour system for the basic fact of a round and rotating Earth.





  #304  
Old October 13th 18, 07:21 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Paul Schlyter[_3_]
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Posts: 1,344
Default Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?

On Sat, 13 Oct 2018 05:28:34 -0700 (PDT), Gary Harnagel
wrote:
On Saturday, October 13, 2018 at 1:30:27 AM UTC-6, Paul Schlyter

wrote:

On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 20:33:37 -0700 (PDT), Gary Harnagel
wrote:

People have free will. THEY are the ones that set up religions.


Good that you finally admit that religions are fantasies created

by
primitive people. But don't forget this the next time you want to
quote from the Bible.

I didn't say ALL religions were fantasies, and I didn't say most

were
created by primitive people, either. Denying that a religion set

up by
an individual (or group thereof) is efficacious is the real fantasy

:-)

You made the general claim that people make up religions, without
mentioning any exception...

You admit that in principle it might not have happened but

you believe
the probability for that is negligibly low.

Yep.


So you claim that a negligible small difference is more than a

minor
difference. Which means you are contradicting yourself.


I overlooked the "negligibly" and took it as "very" so I retract my

"yep."

Interpreting a sentence as it's opposite will give you problems....


Advanced civilizations and supernatural gods are two very

different
things.

I don't believe in the "supernatural." Do you?


Which means you don't believe in the Bible, a book full of

references
to the supernatural...

Only in YOUR opinion. The word "supernatural" does not appear in

the Bible.

Depends on the translation I suppose, nevertheless many supernatural
events are described in the Bible. It begins in Genesis 1 with the
creation of the universe in just six days, light appearing before the
Sun existed, etc etc. Next, read Revelation...


Then why did WWI and WWII happen? Why did the holocaust

happen? Why
did the Armenian genocide happen? And why were atomic bombs

dropped
over Japan in August 1945? Did those watching over us turn

away when
those things happened, or what?

Because free will is more important than death. Intervention

may be
necessary IF total destruction is likely, but wars in general

don't
qualify. You WILL note that a nuclear exchange with the USSR

was avoided
when many thought it would happen.


Did that happen because Nikita Chrustchev listened to God and

removed his
missiles from Cuba in 1962? evil grin


No, but JFK may have listened to Him. I believe that a large

fraction of
humanity has received and receives inspiration, likely unbeknownst

to
themselves.


Kennedy saw that Soviet missiles were removed from Cuba, but it was
Chrustchev who removed them.


I don't believe anything that happens is "supernatural."


Which means you believe that the supernatural events described in

the Bible
never happened. Right?

Wrong. Just because we don't understand how it was done doesn't

make it "supernatural."

A lot of churches will disagree with you. Did you ever consider what
"a wonder by God" actually means?
  #305  
Old October 13th 18, 08:28 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Gary Harnagel
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Posts: 659
Default Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?

On Saturday, October 13, 2018 at 12:21:08 PM UTC-6, Paul Schlyter wrote:

On Sat, 13 Oct 2018 05:28:34 -0700 (PDT), Gary Harnagel
wrote:

On Saturday, October 13, 2018 at 1:30:27 AM UTC-6, Paul Schlyter
wrote:

On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 20:33:37 -0700 (PDT), Gary Harnagel
wrote:

People have free will. THEY are the ones that set up religions.

Good that you finally admit that religions are fantasies created by
primitive people. But don't forget this the next time you want to
quote from the Bible.


I didn't say ALL religions were fantasies, and I didn't say most were
created by primitive people, either. Denying that a religion set up by
an individual (or group thereof) is efficacious is the real fantasy :-)


You made the general claim that people make up religions, without
mentioning any exception...


Consider that mentioned now.

You admit that in principle it might not have happened but you believe
the probability for that is negligibly low.

Yep.

So you claim that a negligible small difference is more than a minor
difference. Which means you are contradicting yourself.


I overlooked the "negligibly" and took it as "very" so I retract my "yep."


Interpreting a sentence as it's opposite will give you problems....


I wouldn't say that "very low" is the opposite of "negligibly low" are
opposites, but yeah.

Advanced civilizations and supernatural gods are two very different
things.

I don't believe in the "supernatural." Do you?

Which means you don't believe in the Bible, a book full of references
to the supernatural...


Only in YOUR opinion. The word "supernatural" does not appear in the Bible.


Depends on the translation I suppose, nevertheless many supernatural
events are described in the Bible. It begins in Genesis 1 with the
creation of the universe in just six days, light appearing before the
Sun existed, etc etc. Next, read Revelation...


"1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
"2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face
of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
"3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
"4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from
the darkness.
"5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the
evening and the morning were the first day."

So "day" wasn't mentioned until after the light was divided from the darkness.
Furthermore, some things in the Bible are literal and others are figurative.
Some translations don't use "day" but use an indeterminate period.

You WILL note that a nuclear exchange with the USSR was avoided
when many thought it would happen.

Did that happen because Nikita Chrustchev listened to God and removed his
missiles from Cuba in 1962? evil grin


No, but JFK may have listened to Him. I believe that a large fraction of
humanity has received and receives inspiration, likely unbeknownst to
themselves.

Kennedy saw that Soviet missiles were removed from Cuba, but it was
Chrustchev who removed them.


At the threat of military conflict. He chickened out. So why did JFK
believe that K would back down?

I don't believe anything that happens is "supernatural."

Which means you believe that the supernatural events described in the
Bible never happened. Right?


Wrong. Just because we don't understand how it was done doesn't make it
"supernatural."


A lot of churches will disagree with you.


A lot of churches interpret scripture in different ways and as a result
make up their own doctrine.

Did you ever consider what "a wonder by God" actually means?


"Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people,
even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall
perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid."
-- Isaiah 29:14

Did you? Did it happen? There were many instances in the Bible where things
didn't go badly according to those who were considered wise and prudent. Were
those "supernatural"?
  #306  
Old October 13th 18, 09:18 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Gerald Kelleher
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Posts: 1,551
Default Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?

The thing about mediocrity is that spirituality doesn't let the dour in so while some pretend to defend the ancient writings, these writings defend themselves.

"God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” Evening came, and morning followed—the first day." Genesis 1

Twilight came and dawn followed but unfortunately the mediocre here, whether they think themselves spiritual or not, can't manage to assign cause to that event as they modeled themselves into trouble -

" It is a fact not generally known that,owing to the difference between solar and sidereal time,the Earth rotates upon its axis once more often than there are days in the year" NASA /Harvard

The mathematical work that spans Genesis 1 to Genesis 7 v11 or from the birth of Adam to the first drop of rain in Noah's flood is for those who are both mathematical and spiritual just as the last work of the Bible is. They are there for those who are spiritual rather than those who are neither mathematical nor spiritual and who have damned themselves by leaving cause and effect of the day/night cycle.
  #307  
Old October 14th 18, 07:38 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Paul Schlyter[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,344
Default Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?

On Sat, 13 Oct 2018 12:28:57 -0700 (PDT), Gary Harnagel
wrote:
On Saturday, October 13, 2018 at 12:21:08 PM UTC-6, Paul Schlyter

wrote:

On Sat, 13 Oct 2018 05:28:34 -0700 (PDT), Gary Harnagel
wrote:

On Saturday, October 13, 2018 at 1:30:27 AM UTC-6, Paul

Schlyter
wrote:

On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 20:33:37 -0700 (PDT), Gary Harnagel
wrote:

People have free will. THEY are the ones that set up

religions.

Good that you finally admit that religions are fantasies

created by
primitive people. But don't forget this the next time you

want to
quote from the Bible.

I didn't say ALL religions were fantasies, and I didn't say

most were
created by primitive people, either. Denying that a religion

set up by
an individual (or group thereof) is efficacious is the real

fantasy :-)

You made the general claim that people make up religions, without
mentioning any exception...

Consider that mentioned now.
You admit that in principle it might not have happened

but you believe
the probability for that is negligibly low.

Yep.

So you claim that a negligible small difference is more than

a minor
difference. Which means you are contradicting yourself.


I overlooked the "negligibly" and took it as "very" so I

retract my "yep."

Interpreting a sentence as it's opposite will give you

problems....
I wouldn't say that "very low" is the opposite of "negligibly low"

are
opposites, but yeah.
Advanced civilizations and supernatural gods are two very

different
things.

I don't believe in the "supernatural." Do you?

Which means you don't believe in the Bible, a book full of

references
to the supernatural...

Only in YOUR opinion. The word "supernatural" does not appear

in the Bible.

Depends on the translation I suppose, nevertheless many

supernatural
events are described in the Bible. It begins in Genesis 1 with

the
creation of the universe in just six days, light appearing before

the
Sun existed, etc etc. Next, read Revelation...

"1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
"2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon

the face
of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the

waters.
"3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
"4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the

light from
the darkness.
"5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night.

And the
evening and the morning were the first day."
So "day" wasn't mentioned until after the light was divided from

the darkness.
Furthermore, some things in the Bible are literal and others are

figurative.
Some translations don't use "day" but use an indeterminate period.


You WILL note that a nuclear exchange with the USSR was

avoided
when many thought it would happen.

Did that happen because Nikita Chrustchev listened to God and

removed his
missiles from Cuba in 1962? evil grin

No, but JFK may have listened to Him. I believe that a large

fraction of
humanity has received and receives inspiration, likely

unbeknownst to
themselves.

Kennedy saw that Soviet missiles were removed from Cuba, but it

was
Chrustchev who removed them.


At the threat of military conflict. He chickened out. So why did

JFK
believe that K would back down?


In my vocabulary he acted responsibly. Having hundreds of million
people killed just because you don't want to "chicken out" isn't
mature. You could expect such action from an immature teenager but
not from a sensible grown-up person....

I don't believe anything that happens is "supernatural."

Which means you believe that the supernatural events

described in the
Bible never happened. Right?

Wrong. Just because we don't understand how it was done

doesn't make it
"supernatural."


A lot of churches will disagree with you.

A lot of churches interpret scripture in different ways and as a

result
make up their own doctrine.


That is indeed a problem inherent in any religion, or any ideology
making absolute claims...


Did you ever consider what "a wonder by God" actually means?

"Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among

this people,
even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise

men shall
perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid."
-- Isaiah 29:14
Did you? Did it happen? There were many instances in the Bible

where things
didn't go badly according to those who were considered wise and

prudent. Were
those "supernatural"?


I suppose you will agree with this;

"God is an extraterrestrial civilization much more advanced than
ours, and Erich von Dniken is his prophet." :-)
  #308  
Old October 14th 18, 10:37 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Gary Harnagel
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 659
Default Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?

On Sunday, October 14, 2018 at 12:38:43 PM UTC-6, Paul Schlyter wrote:

On Sat, 13 Oct 2018 12:28:57 -0700 (PDT), Gary Harnagel
wrote:

On Saturday, October 13, 2018 at 12:21:08 PM UTC-6, Paul Schlyter

wrote:

You made the general claim that people make up religions, without
mentioning any exception...


Consider that mentioned now.

Interpreting a sentence as it's opposite will give you problems....

I wouldn't say that "very low" is the opposite of "negligibly low" are
opposites, but yeah.

Depends on the translation I suppose, nevertheless many supernatural
events are described in the Bible. It begins in Genesis 1 with the
creation of the universe in just six days, light appearing before the
Sun existed, etc etc. Next, read Revelation...


"1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
"2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face
of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
"3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
"4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from
the darkness.
"5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the
evening and the morning were the first day."

So "day" wasn't mentioned until after the light was divided from the
darkness. Furthermore, some things in the Bible are literal and others
are figurative. Some translations don't use "day" but use an indeterminate
period.
....
Kennedy saw that Soviet missiles were removed from Cuba, but it was
Chrustchev who removed them.


At the threat of military conflict. He chickened out. So why did JFK
believe that K would back down?


In my vocabulary he acted responsibly. Having hundreds of million
people killed just because you don't want to "chicken out" isn't
mature. You could expect such action from an immature teenager but
not from a sensible grown-up person....


Some may think that JFK's actions were immature since he risked exactly
what K wasn't willing to. What he did seemed foolhardy but wasn't: a
wondrous work.

A lot of churches will disagree with you.


A lot of churches interpret scripture in different ways and as a result
make up their own doctrine.


That is indeed a problem inherent in any religion, or any ideology
making absolute claims...


This is true of MOST religions, but not all. The development of Christianity
had minimal ideology and grew "precept by precept; line upon line." At first,
it was only to "the house of Israel" then Peter had a vision concerning
Cornelius. Then there was the matter of circumcision for the gentiles, etc..

By the time of the Council of Nice in 325 AD there were two major divisions
espousing different beliefs about the Godhead, both wrong. Thus it ceased
to be the faith taught in the first century. This was predicted by Paul.

Did you ever consider what "a wonder by God" actually means?


"Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this
people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their
wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall
be hid." -- Isaiah 29:14

Did you? Did it happen? There were many instances in the Bible where
things didn't go badly according to those who were considered wise and
prudent. Were those "supernatural"?


I suppose you will agree with this;

"God is an extraterrestrial civilization much more advanced than
ours, and Erich von Däniken is his prophet." :-)


Do I have to repeat my thesis AGAIN? That the possibility of an ancient ET
civilization having godlike powers may quite probably exist should cast
doubt in any honest mind that atheism is a viable position.

And any honest Christian must also admit that such a civilization might
actually exist because of what Paul wrote:

"16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the
children of God:
"17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ;
if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together."

Of course, most believe that we will be "spirits" living in a "spiritual
heaven" but they conveniently forget that Jesus had a PHYSICAL body when
he appeared after his resurrection, and so will we if we will be "like Him":

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we
shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him;
for we shall see him as he is." -- 1 John 3:2
  #309  
Old October 15th 18, 03:27 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Quadibloc
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,018
Default Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?

On Sunday, October 14, 2018 at 3:37:47 PM UTC-6, Gary Harnagel wrote:

Do I have to repeat my thesis AGAIN? That the possibility of an ancient ET
civilization having godlike powers may quite probably exist should cast
doubt in any honest mind that atheism is a viable position.


And I find that position bizarre and untenable. It might cast doubt in any honest
mind that the sort-of theism with these aliens replacing God is unviable, but it
doesn't make atheism unviable, since even if the aliens exist, there's no reason
to think it particularly likely that they're interfering with us.

John Savard
  #310  
Old October 15th 18, 05:03 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Gary Harnagel
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 659
Default Neil DeGrasse Tyson headed down same loony road as Carl Sagan?

On Sunday, October 14, 2018 at 8:27:31 PM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:

On Sunday, October 14, 2018 at 3:37:47 PM UTC-6, Gary Harnagel wrote:

Do I have to repeat my thesis AGAIN? That the possibility of an ancient ET
civilization having godlike powers may quite probably exist should cast
doubt in any honest mind that atheism is a viable position.


And I find that position bizarre and untenable.


That's YOUR prejudiced position :-)

It might cast doubt in any honest mind that the sort-of theism with these
aliens replacing God is unviable, but it doesn't make atheism unviable,
since even if the aliens exist, there's no reason to think it particularly
likely that they're interfering with us.

John Savard


That's an assumption from a parochial perspective. Why would you believe
aliens billions of years ahead of us would be as self-centered as we are?
 




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