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  #11  
Old December 7th 03, 02:43 AM
Chris L Peterson
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Default What is SPAM? (Was: Most Complete Astronomy Software Available)

On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 03:19:49 +0200, Anthony Ayiomamitis
wrote:

So you are saying that "Unsolicited messages, often of a commercial
nature, sent DISCRIMINATELY to multiple mailing lists, individuals, or
newsgroups." is not spam?


I think it's fair to say this isn't a black and white issue. We all get stuff
that would be pretty universally considered spam (products to increase your,
umm, telescope size) and things that at least some of us would not, even though
commercial and unsolicited. I don't have a big problem with the occasional email
directed to me by someone selling something astronomical. I might have a mild
sense of distaste, depending on how focused it is and just where I think they
got my address, but I don't go filing complaints with their ISPs like I do some
other UBEs.

For the many years I've been participating in this NG, short, occasional,
topical commercial posts have been well accepted, particularly where the poster
is a regular participant here.

_________________________________________________

Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com
  #12  
Old December 7th 03, 02:58 AM
Kilolani
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Default What is SPAM? (Was: Most Complete Astronomy Software Available)

Yes, that's what I'm saying. In fact, one could make the point that since
you are reading an astronomy newsgroup, astronomy related commercial
messages are not "unsolicited" at all. How else would you define "solicited"
messages on a newsgroup?

"Anthony Ayiomamitis" wrote in message
...

So you are saying that "Unsolicited messages, often of a commercial nature,
sent DISCRIMINATELY to multiple mailing lists, individuals, or newsgroups."
is not spam?

Anthony.








  #13  
Old December 7th 03, 06:34 AM
Davoud
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Default What is SPAM? (Was: Most Complete Astronomy Software Available)

Etok:
So if Mr. Most-Complete-Astronomy-Software-Available reponded to a
reader's question about astronomy software, I say it's fair use.


A quick look at the archives shows that there have been more that 1,000
reader questions about astronomy software on SAA in the past six
months. In that light, I don't think that the
Most-Complete-Astronomy-Software-Available post is worth a federal
case. It's like every other post -- read it or ignore it.

Davoud

--
usenet *at* davidillig dawt com
  #14  
Old December 7th 03, 08:14 AM
Kilolani
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Posts: n/a
Default What is SPAM? (Was: Most Complete Astronomy Software Available)

I'm sorry... did you say people ask for product information about software,
etc.? Isn't that exactly what his commercial message offers? If you don't
like it killfile him, but an on-topic commercial message is still not spam.

"Etok" wrote in message
...
Kilolani wrote:

Yes, that's what I'm saying. In fact, one could make the point that

since
you are reading an astronomy newsgroup, astronomy related commercial
messages are not "unsolicited" at all. How else would you define

"solicited"
messages on a newsgroup?



They are unsolicited if nobody ASKED for them (solicit=ask or inquire).
People ask for advice in the newsgroup, they ask for product
information, about software, etc. But the GROUP doesn't ask for
commercial messages to be posted.
So if Mr. Most-Complete-Astronomy-Software-Available reponded to a
reader's question about astronomy software, I say it's fair use. If, as
in this case, he uses the newsgroup to promote his product (see the
original post), then it would fit the definition of unsolicited
commercial message, and the individual should be consigned to driving a
Camaro with a leaky exhaust manifold and mis-matched mag wheels for
eternity.

Regards, and Happy Holidays,
Etok





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  #15  
Old December 7th 03, 10:15 AM
Anthony Ayiomamitis
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Default What is SPAM? (Was: Most Complete Astronomy Software Available)

Chris,

I do not have a problem with a posting here on the newsgroup
just to follow-up on your last statement. At least with the newsgroup I
have a choice or reading or not etc. When something is sent to my email
address directly, it becomes a different story. I receive around 200
messages per day and I can tell you that around 170 of them are spam ...
from increasing you-know-what, to cheap loans and low interest rates, to
Nigerian government officials looking to launder money, to Microsoft
patches and fixes, to Viagra, to online pharmacies and lots of other
garbage.

As I noted to someone else who sent me email: I see spam being
similar to the travelling salesman who knocks on your door unsolicited.
I do not want the hassle or the bother of whatever he may be selling.
Now, if some "newsgroup"could be setup where all of these idiots can
send their messages to, I would be delighted for the simple reason it
will free up my electronic mailbox from abuse and, IF AND WHEN I decide,
I can visit this new "newsgroup" to read whatever garbage they are
promoting.

It is certainly not a black and white issue as you note but it
it quite close to being as such (at least for me). As for someone
possibly hoarding something related to astronomy, why not then just post
a message to a newsgroup where you will have a much greater audience
(perhaps?) as well as probably a greater probablity that someone will
read it.

As much as I love the Internet, spam is something that is
getting more and more frustrating. I remember reading some report
locally about a year ago and it was clearly documented that the United
States (here we go with a new flame war and thread) is a major portion
of the problem, for a lot of the spam not only originates from the US
but politicians and law-makers are hesitant to pass laws with teeth on
the grounds spam does have an economic basis and foundation. The article
went on to say that the EU was close to passing some very tough law
against spam but that little could be expected since the source of the
problem and consequent volume was elsewhere (vis a vis, the US). I wish
I had kept the article so as to be more specific.

Anthony.

Chris L Peterson wrote:

On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 03:19:49 +0200, Anthony Ayiomamitis
wrote:



So you are saying that "Unsolicited messages, often of a commercial
nature, sent DISCRIMINATELY to multiple mailing lists, individuals, or
newsgroups." is not spam?



I think it's fair to say this isn't a black and white issue. We all get stuff
that would be pretty universally considered spam (products to increase your,
umm, telescope size) and things that at least some of us would not, even though
commercial and unsolicited. I don't have a big problem with the occasional email
directed to me by someone selling something astronomical. I might have a mild
sense of distaste, depending on how focused it is and just where I think they
got my address, but I don't go filing complaints with their ISPs like I do some
other UBEs.

For the many years I've been participating in this NG, short, occasional,
topical commercial posts have been well accepted, particularly where the poster
is a regular participant here.

_______________________________________________ __

Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com



  #16  
Old December 7th 03, 10:17 AM
Anthony Ayiomamitis
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default What is SPAM? (Was: Most Complete Astronomy Software Available)

Your statement included individuals and it is for that reason that I
mentioned DISCRIMINATELY. Otherwise, I have no problem with its
DISCRIMINATE use in newsgroups. As for mailing lists, my answer again is
NO since mailing lists mean an abuse to my mailbox once again but
indirectly this time since the offending message(s) will be part of the
mail digest and not directly.

Anthony.

Kilolani wrote:

Yes, that's what I'm saying. In fact, one could make the point that since
you are reading an astronomy newsgroup, astronomy related commercial
messages are not "unsolicited" at all. How else would you define "solicited"
messages on a newsgroup?

"Anthony Ayiomamitis" wrote in message
...

So you are saying that "Unsolicited messages, often of a commercial nature,
sent DISCRIMINATELY to multiple mailing lists, individuals, or newsgroups."
is not spam?

Anthony.











  #17  
Old December 7th 03, 01:48 PM
John Beaderstadt
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default What is SPAM? (Was: Most Complete Astronomy Software Available)

I was reading in the bathroom when I ran across an item written by
Anthony Ayiomamitis on Sun, 07 Dec 2003
03:19:49 +0200, which said:

So you are saying that "Unsolicited messages, often of a commercial
nature, sent DISCRIMINATELY to multiple mailing lists, individuals, or
newsgroups." is not spam?


That's probably a pretty good way to put it, since to discriminate is
to use your judgement. Spam is mass email that does not take the
recipient into account.

Probably every advertisement you see or hear is something you didn't
intend to see or hear, regardless of whether it is on the internet or
TV, or in the newspaper. By the broader definition, this is all spam.
OTOH, there are such things as legitimate advertising, and legitimate
advertisers. I guess a good definition would be that they play by
whatever rules are in force for the intended venue.

I wouldn't mind seeing ads in this group by group regulars for
astronomy-related stuff, just as there's a similar unofficial rule
over in sci.space.history (my very first subscribed group). Neither
would I mind getting the occasional email about things which do
interest me; indeed, that already happens.


-------------
Beady's 11th Law of Social Harmonics: "Your spouse is precisely the kind of person someone like you would choose to marry."
  #18  
Old December 7th 03, 03:29 PM
Anthony Ayiomamitis
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default What is SPAM? (Was: Most Complete Astronomy Software Available)

John Beaderstadt wrote:

I was reading in the bathroom when I ran across an item written by
Anthony Ayiomamitis on Sun, 07 Dec 2003
03:19:49 +0200, which said:



So you are saying that "Unsolicited messages, often of a commercial
nature, sent DISCRIMINATELY to multiple mailing lists, individuals, or
newsgroups." is not spam?


John,

While also reading in the bathroom .....

That's probably a pretty good way to put it, since to discriminate is
to use your judgement. Spam is mass email that does not take the
recipient into account.

I certainly do not agree with this statement. For example,
would eBay be justified in bombarding you and I with every
astronomy-related auction that gets posted just because you and I have
an interest in astronomy and, therefore, they would be targetting in a
supposedly discriminate fashion?

If I want to see what eBay has for sale which is
astronomy-related and MAY be of interest to me, I will go and look for
it. I do not need by Inbox flooded and swamped with eBay's proactive
action just because I *** may *** have an interest. As a result, being
discriminate or not is of little value since it still represents
unsolicited email which I certainly do not want to be forcefully exposed
to just because some other entity thinks/wishes/hopes I may just have an
interest.

Probably every advertisement you see or hear is something you didn't
intend to see or hear, regardless of whether it is on the internet or
TV, or in the newspaper. By the broader definition, this is all spam.
OTOH, there are such things as legitimate advertising, and legitimate
advertisers. I guess a good definition would be that they play by
whatever rules are in force for the intended venue.

The problem with the examples you describe is that they are
"public" and represent part of the "world noise around us" which we can
try and ignore. Sending spam to my Inbox is an invasion of privacy.
Similarly, if this "public" noise becomes an issue, I will take steps,
however possible, to do some radical surgery ... for example, if eBay
(for the sake of argument) decides to flood its registered users with
spam, I will go and remove my account with them so that I will
proactively put and end to such nonsense. Unfortunately, I do not have
this privilege or luxury with my own Inbox.

I wouldn't mind seeing ads in this group by group regulars for
astronomy-related stuff, just as there's a similar unofficial rule
over in sci.space.history (my very first subscribed group). Neither
would I mind getting the occasional email about things which do
interest me; indeed, that already happens.

I have no problem seeing ads in ANY group ... not only can they
be easily ignored but I can leave the group(s) of interest in the event
these ads become a nuisance. Again, this is something I cannot do with
Inbox and its invasion of privacy. The same can be said with mailing
lists .... there is no place for spam there as well since they
inevitably lead to access to my Inbox via the daily digest or whatever.

Anthony.

-------------
Beady's 11th Law of Social Harmonics: "Your spouse is precisely the kind of person someone like you would choose to marry."



  #19  
Old December 7th 03, 04:10 PM
Jon Isaacs
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Posts: n/a
Default What is SPAM? (Was: Most Complete Astronomy Software Available)

So if Mr. Most-Complete-Astronomy-Software-Available reponded to a
reader's question about astronomy software, I say it's fair use.


The issue of new product announcements has been discussed here before. If my
memory serves me correctly, I believe a consensus was reached that a one time
product announcement is acceptable if it is tame and if the information that it
is a commercial is included in the header.

Good examples of properly done announcements are Brian Tung's.

I personally think this announcement was a bit aggressive but still, there are
people who do use this software.

I am curious if you have read the S.A.A. charter in this regard? It is pretty
silent and I think leaves the decision up to the group.

My vote is one time product announcements by small vendors, especially those
that are members of this group are fine.

jon
  #20  
Old December 7th 03, 05:34 PM
Tom
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Default What is SPAM? (Was: Most Complete Astronomy Software Available)


"Jon Isaacs" wrote:
/
JI I am curious if you have read the S.A.A. charter in this regard?
JI It is pretty silent and I think leaves the decision up to the group.

At last, someone finally mentions the document that ultimately decides
what is spam and what is not. Unfortunately, as you correctly point out,
the SAA charter makes no provision either way. In contrast, the
uk.sci.astronomy charter specifically prohibits any commercial posting;
the original message would be considered spam in that group.




 




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