Inexpensive alt-az head?

I would like to find an inexpensive alt-az head to go on a conventional
photographic tripod. It will carry an Orion ST-80. The telescope is
likely to spend more time pointed at Himalayan peaks from a roof with a
view than at the sky but it will get pointed at the sky for a reasonable
amount of time. Astronomical use will probably be quite casual.

The tripod has a removable head, with a standard threaded stub on which
the alt-az head will presumably go.

The Orion AZ-3 is way too much in the context. I am really looking for
something in the same range as a moderately priced photographic tripod
head. Failing that, I suppose a moderately priced photographic head will
serve reasonably well. It is just not as intuitively obvious a way to
point a telescope.

I could manufacture one but I have a years long stack of things I could
manufacture and am "in the process of making". I think I should accept
that "can" will not translate into "will".

I would appreciate any suggestions anyone might have. The Orion AZ-3 is
way too much in the context. I am really looking for something in the
same range as a moderately priced photographic tripod head.

- Shankar

"Shankar Bhattacharyya" wrote in message
...
I would like to find an inexpensive alt-az head to go on a conventional
photographic tripod. It will carry an Orion ST-80. The telescope is
likely to spend more time pointed at Himalayan peaks from a roof with a
view than at the sky but it will get pointed at the sky for a reasonable
amount of time. Astronomical use will probably be quite casual.

The tripod has a removable head, with a standard threaded stub on which
the alt-az head will presumably go.

The Orion AZ-3 is way too much in the context. I am really looking for
something in the same range as a moderately priced photographic tripod
head. Failing that, I suppose a moderately priced photographic head will
serve reasonably well. It is just not as intuitively obvious a way to
point a telescope.

I could manufacture one but I have a years long stack of things I could
manufacture and am "in the process of making". I think I should accept
that "can" will not translate into "will".

I would appreciate any suggestions anyone might have. The Orion AZ-3 is
way too much in the context. I am really looking for something in the
same range as a moderately priced photographic tripod head.
Seriously, the AZ-3, is about as cheap as you'll get. Remember it has 'slow
motion' drives on both axes. There are similar photographic heads, but they
cost _more_ (Manfrotto for instance do one, which starts at about twice the
AZ-3's price). The cheaper photographic tripod heads, lack the slow motion
adjustments (which is why they are cheaper). Versions with the slow motion
gears, from any reasonable photographic supplier will be at least as
expensive, getting even more expensive if they are reasonably rigid (for
instance The MN400 photographic head, goes for about £400...). The problem
is that once your magnification goes above perhaps 30*, having the finer
pointing accuracy becomes important. I don't know what price you are seeing
for the AZ-3, but on it's own (without a tripod), it is not expensive (in
the UK about £99). However you also have to remember that many of the
cheaper photographic tripods, have the same problems as cheaper astronomical
designs, of not really being stiff enough.
That all being said, have you considered secondhand?. Quite a few scopes
(like the Skywatcher 120), are sold on the AZ3 mount, which for such a large
scope, is really 'undersized'. Hence a number of these mounts do appear
secondhand on Ebay, and AstroAds, and could be a good way of getting one at
a sensible price.
In general, you will need the adapter plate, to fit a normal tripod, unless
the AZ-3 you buy already has this fitted.
HandsOnOptics, do the Celestron Alt/Az mount, for $129, while Kendrick, list
The AZ3 for $117.

Best Wishes

Shankar Bhattacharyya wrote in message . ..
I would like to find an inexpensive alt-az head to go on a conventional
photographic tripod. It will carry an Orion ST-80.
The Orion AZ-3 is way too much in the context. I am really looking for
something in the same range as a moderately priced photographic tripod
head.
I would appreciate any suggestions anyone might have. The Orion AZ-3 is
way too much in the context. I am really looking for something in the
same range as a moderately priced photographic tripod head.

- Shankar

Avoid ANY photographic pan-tilt heads & tripods with any telescope.
I very occasionally use a large & very heavy double-legged Bogen #3047
tripod with its own pan-tilt head for my 90mm f/11 Vixen refractor.
Putting it as mildly as possible: It's a complete disaster at any
power! Use a proper telescope tripod with an altaz head (preferably
with slow motions) designed for the purpose. Or put an altaz head on a
firmly fixed pipe or rigid pier. You will not regret it for a moment.
A photographic tripod is only suitable for binoculars in my opinion.
How birdwatchers ever see anything through their telescopes is beyond
comprehension. It's no wonder they're twitchy!

I envy you your view. Even if it is upside down. grin

Chris.B

I would appreciate any suggestions anyone might have. The Orion AZ-3 is
way too much in the context. I am really looking for something in the
same range as a moderately priced photographic tripod head.

- Shankar


This is what I can offer.

Jon's Side Saddle Mount.

I have been using a Bogen 3040 tripod with a 3047 head for several years as a
mount for a variety of scopes including a C5, a Pronto, an Apogee ST-80 clone
and an Orion Space Probe 130 ST. I like this setup, it has some problems
with the larger scopes but I have still been able to get the Space Probe 130ST
up to 500X on the double-double.

Some comments.

1. I have described this before, not sure anyone shares my my positive opinion
of this technique. I am also not sure anyone has actually understood how this
works either.

2. I have been doing this for several years and it is second nature to me. I
think to make it work one really needs to understand the basic mechanics of the
balance.

3. The basic trick here is to use a three axis photographic head and flip the
top axis 90 degrees so the scope is along side the mount rather than on top of
it.

Here is a link to a photo of my ST-80 clone mounted this way.

http://members.aol.com/jonisaacs/bik...s/poglidsk.jpg

By mounting the scope "Side Saddle", it turns the photographic head into a
single side fork mount and if you look carefully in the photo you can see that
the altitude pivot axis comes close to passing through the center of balance of
the scope.

What this means is that the scope is balanced about the pivot, it does not try
to overturn as is normal with a photographic head pointed at a high altitude.
It works in a similar fashion to a DOB mount or an Upswing mount.

With a normal "on top of a photo tripod" mounting, as the altitude increases,
the scopes center of gravity moves towards the back and it is more and more off
center. The only way to handle this is either with gears, balance weights or
by tightening the bearing so they do not move.

The Side Saddle Mounting side steps this problem because the scope is alongside
the bearing and aligned with the altitude pivot rather than above it so it can
remain balanced at most any altitude.

The main problem with the Side Saddle mount is that it puts an off-center load
on the azimuth bearing and with a heavier scope it is not as smooth as I would
like.

This Side Saddle Mount also works nicely for terrestial viewing, bird watching
and such.

4. Cost: I cannot recommend an inexpensive tripod/head that is capable of
doing this. I have two Bogens, a 3051 with a 3030 head that cost $40 used and
the 3040 with a 3047 head that was $35 used. Both work well for this but both
probably cost somewhere between $250 and $300 complete. These are available on
Astromart at times.

5. Anyone interested in learning more about the Side Saddle Mount, Email me
privately, I have some more photos and would like to see others try it and see
how it works for them. My experience is that it is a great improvement over
mounting the scope on top of the tripod in the normal manner but probably not
as nice as a Televue Telepod.

Best wishes,

jon isaacs

(Chris.B) wrote in message . com...

Avoid ANY photographic pan-tilt heads & tripods with any telescope.

This is the voice of ignorance. In fact, a good photo tripod and
video head makes a splendid mount for a small, light telescope.
For me, the biggest benefit of a small scope is the ability to
use it on a photo tripod.

I very occasionally use a large & very heavy double-legged Bogen #3047
tripod with its own pan-tilt head for my 90mm f/11 Vixen refractor.
Putting it as mildly as possible: It's a complete disaster at any
power!

Of course that doesn't work well! But there is a world of difference
between a 90mm F/11 scope and an 80mm F/5 scope. I used to use my
Televue Ranger (70mm F/6.9) atop Bogen 3011 and 3021S legs with the
3026 video head, and it worked like a charm. I still do that from
time to time, but now I mostly use my Unistar Light head atop the
same tripods, which works even better.

The only problem with the photo-tripod/video-head combination is
that it is a little hard to track at high powers (over 100X),
especially near the zenith. The combination is quite stable,
though, except possibly when extended to full standing height
and in a stiff breeze. Two things to be aware of is that given
the choice, lower is always better than higher -- get used to
viewing in a seated position. And whatever you do, avoid extending
the center post if you can -- that's when you really start to
lose stability.

Note that the Bogen combination mentioned above probably costs
more than the AZ-3 mount, so cost is *not* one of the benefits.
The major benefit is dramatically improved portability. But if
you don't plan to cart the scope around, there's little reason
not to get a full-fledged astro mount.

Don't try any head lighter (or cheaper) than the low-end Bogen
mounts -- which are neither light nor cheap as these things go.

- Tony Flanders

3. The basic trick here is to use a three axis photographic head and flip the
top axis 90 degrees so the scope is along side the mount rather than on top of
it.

Here is a link to a photo of my ST-80 clone mounted this way.

http://members.aol.com/jonisaacs/bik...s/poglidsk.jpg

By mounting the scope "Side Saddle", it turns the photographic head into a
single side fork mount and if you look carefully in the photo you can see that
the altitude pivot axis comes close to passing through the center of balance of
the scope.

Hi Jon,

Interesting to see your technique. I've wondered why I don't see it
more often since I've also found it works well. I'm always on the
lookout for a photo head that would lend itself especially well to
this but often find the right one being quite costly.

More recently I acquired a Manfrotto 486 ballhead with a built-in
quick release plate. The quick release plate allows for the camera
mounting screw to be removed so that a short bolt can be put in its
place that's long enough to also go through the Celestron 80f5 plastic
tube holder. With the ball head's plate tilted 90* to one side (into
one of the grooves in the head's body), the entire arrangement acts
'side saddle' and is smooth, light and solid. Only improvement I've
made is to add a slim strip of teflon or other smooth material around
the shaft that connects the plate to the ball, so when that shaft sits
in the body's groove it rotates even more smoothly.

Added bonus is the quick release - I can pop the scope off and have
the whole thing folded up in seconds. Or, if walking through doors and
around fences with the whole setup, the single lock lever prevents the
scope from flopping around.

Works like a dream. Shooting myself in the foot here, but it works as
well for the 80f5 as the Giro Mini I now have for sale. Bought the
Giro Mini for a 6 lb. scope but it looks like 6 lbs. is too heavy
without a counter weight. In my opinon, counter weights defeat the
purpose of a light alt-az. When the 6 lb. scope didn't work, I used
the Mini for the 80f5 but found no major performance gain, no quick
release and an extra lb., so went back to the ballhead.

Kirk

(Tony Flanders) wrote in
:

(Chris.B) wrote in message
. com...

I very occasionally use a large & very heavy double-legged Bogen
#3047 tripod with its own pan-tilt head for my 90mm f/11 Vixen
refractor. Putting it as mildly as possible: It's a complete
disaster at any power!

Of course that doesn't work well! But there is a world of
difference between a 90mm F/11 scope and an 80mm F/5 scope. I used
to use my Televue Ranger (70mm F/6.9) atop Bogen 3011 and 3021S
legs with the 3026 video head, and it worked like a charm. I still
do that from time to time, but now I mostly use my Unistar Light
head atop the same tripods, which works even better.

The only problem with the photo-tripod/video-head combination is
that it is a little hard to track at high powers (over 100X),
especially near the zenith.

I have used the ST-80 on a Bogen 3130 head without any particular
problems, as long as the magnification is sensible in context. Of
course, a video head is better, in that it offers easier pointing. As
Tony points out, an 80mm f/5 is a rather manageable scope.

Note that the Bogen combination mentioned above probably costs
more than the AZ-3 mount, so cost is *not* one of the benefits.
The major benefit is dramatically improved portability. But if
you don't plan to cart the scope around, there's little reason
not to get a full-fledged astro mount.

Part of the motivation is that I have a spare set of tripod legs. While
the eventual application is not likely to involve much carrying around,
the parts will get "carted" to India in my luggage, in a couple of
months. Portability is at least an incidental issue. Also, keeping in
mind that Indian homes are smaller than US ones, the mount needs to
support multiple uses if possible, hence an incentive to put the mount
on the photographic tripod legs. Further, as tony presumably knows quite
well, portability is a different class of problem in India, where cars
are small and transportation is generally more of a pain.

- Shankar

(Jon Isaacs) wrote in
:

I would appreciate any suggestions anyone might have. The Orion
AZ-3 is way too much in the context. I am really looking for
something in the same range as a moderately priced photographic
tripod head.

3. The basic trick here is to use a three axis photographic head
and flip the top axis 90 degrees so the scope is along side the
mount rather than on top of it.

Here is a link to a photo of my ST-80 clone mounted this way.

http://members.aol.com/jonisaacs/bik...s/poglidsk.jpg

That's an ingenious approach to the zenith problem. Thanks for the idea.
It seems like a very plausible way to handle a small scope. I'll try
that for a bit to see how the ST-80 handles.

- Shankar

(Chris.B) wrote in
om:

I envy you your view. Even if it is upside down. grin

Well, the ST-80 ships with an erect-image, 45 degree diagonal. I just
bought a star diagonal to go with it for the astronomical application.

On a clear day the view can be quite something. One looks over the dinky
little 8 and 9,000 foot Siwalik range to mountains approaching 20,000
feet over on the far side. The house is near Dehra Dun, in northern
India. The architect, by the way, has a house in a small town on the far
side of the Siwalik range, on a sort of hill-top promontory, with
something well over a 180-degree view of the mountains.

- Shankar

I took a Bogen 3126 head and made a hardwood plate to attach the head to and
the wooden legs from a junk department store scope. With a small scope its rock
solid, light weight and smooth - much more solid than any mid priced aluminum
leg camera/video tripod. I even had my 6" mak-cass on it a few times but forget
about pointing it up high with that amount of weight. Biggest problem though is
it tends to get stiff if its very cold. Wondering if there is a better grease
to put in there and how do you get the bogen head apart?

Tony