A Space & astronomy forum. SpaceBanter.com

Go Back   Home » SpaceBanter.com forum » Space Science » Policy
Site Map Home Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Did The Chinese Violate Any Treaties?



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old January 19th 07, 09:07 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.space.history
Rand Simberg[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,311
Default Did The Chinese Violate Any Treaties?

On not making messes in space? My dim understanding is that this
remains unsettled in the Liability Convention, due to an inability to
agree on a definition of the word "debris." Any space lawyers out
there more up to date?

I'd think that, at a minimum, if any of the bits strike someone's
satellite, or ISS, that the Chinese could be held liable under the
OST. If it could be proven that it resulted from this event, that is
(probably a difficult thing to do).
  #2  
Old January 19th 07, 09:14 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.space.history
ed kyle
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 276
Default Did The Chinese Violate Any Treaties?

Rand Simberg wrote:
On not making messes in space? My dim understanding is that this
remains unsettled in the Liability Convention, due to an inability to
agree on a definition of the word "debris." Any space lawyers out
there more up to date?

I'd think that, at a minimum, if any of the bits strike someone's
satellite, or ISS, that the Chinese could be held liable under the
OST. If it could be proven that it resulted from this event, that is
(probably a difficult thing to do).


They wouldn't be any more liable than the U.S. for the two Delta
stages that fragmented and created clouds of debris in LEO last
year. Or Japan for its H-2A upper stage that blew up last year.
Or Russia, which blew up a Kosmos satellite in LEO late last
year.

I don't see a treaty issue, unless it was China trying to get the
U.S. to agree to negotiate a no-arms-in-space treaty with it and
Russia as it has called for in the past.

- Ed Kyle

  #3  
Old January 19th 07, 09:40 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.space.history
Rand Simberg[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,311
Default Did The Chinese Violate Any Treaties?

On 19 Jan 2007 12:14:14 -0800, in a place far, far away, "Ed Kyle"
made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such a
way as to indicate that:

Rand Simberg wrote:
On not making messes in space? My dim understanding is that this
remains unsettled in the Liability Convention, due to an inability to
agree on a definition of the word "debris." Any space lawyers out
there more up to date?

I'd think that, at a minimum, if any of the bits strike someone's
satellite, or ISS, that the Chinese could be held liable under the
OST. If it could be proven that it resulted from this event, that is
(probably a difficult thing to do).


They wouldn't be any more liable than the U.S. for the two Delta
stages that fragmented and created clouds of debris in LEO last
year. Or Japan for its H-2A upper stage that blew up last year.
Or Russia, which blew up a Kosmos satellite in LEO late last
year.


It's interesting that there's no distinction made between accidents
and a deliberate act.
  #4  
Old January 19th 07, 10:35 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.space.history
ed kyle
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 276
Default Did The Chinese Violate Any Treaties?


Rand Simberg wrote:
On 19 Jan 2007 12:14:14 -0800, in a place far, far away, "Ed Kyle"
made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such a
way as to indicate that:

Rand Simberg wrote:
On not making messes in space? My dim understanding is that this
remains unsettled in the Liability Convention, due to an inability to
agree on a definition of the word "debris." Any space lawyers out
there more up to date?

I'd think that, at a minimum, if any of the bits strike someone's
satellite, or ISS, that the Chinese could be held liable under the
OST. If it could be proven that it resulted from this event, that is
(probably a difficult thing to do).


They wouldn't be any more liable than the U.S. for the two Delta
stages that fragmented and created clouds of debris in LEO last
year. Or Japan for its H-2A upper stage that blew up last year.
Or Russia, which blew up a Kosmos satellite in LEO late last
year.


It's interesting that there's no distinction made between accidents
and a deliberate act.


I think the liability would be the same either way.

- Ed Kyle

  #5  
Old January 19th 07, 10:39 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.space.history
Rand Simberg[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,311
Default Did The Chinese Violate Any Treaties?

On 19 Jan 2007 13:35:31 -0800, in a place far, far away, "Ed Kyle"
made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such a
way as to indicate that:

They wouldn't be any more liable than the U.S. for the two Delta
stages that fragmented and created clouds of debris in LEO last
year. Or Japan for its H-2A upper stage that blew up last year.
Or Russia, which blew up a Kosmos satellite in LEO late last
year.


It's interesting that there's no distinction made between accidents
and a deliberate act.


I think the liability would be the same either way.


Yes, but as I said, it's interesting. In a civil case, a deliberate
act would carry a higher penalty, perhaps with punitive damages.
  #6  
Old January 19th 07, 10:43 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.space.history
Herb Schaltegger
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 315
Default Did The Chinese Violate Any Treaties?

On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 15:39:39 -0600, Rand Simberg wrote
(in article ):

On 19 Jan 2007 13:35:31 -0800, in a place far, far away, "Ed Kyle"
made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such a
way as to indicate that:

They wouldn't be any more liable than the U.S. for the two Delta
stages that fragmented and created clouds of debris in LEO last
year. Or Japan for its H-2A upper stage that blew up last year.
Or Russia, which blew up a Kosmos satellite in LEO late last
year.

It's interesting that there's no distinction made between accidents
and a deliberate act.


I think the liability would be the same either way.


Yes, but as I said, it's interesting. In a civil case, a deliberate
act would carry a higher penalty, perhaps with punitive damages.


Don't play lawyer, Rand. In civil cases, the factors to be considered in
awarding punitive damages vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, and the
intent of the actor is but one factor to consider.


--
You can run on for a long time,
Sooner or later, God'll cut you down.
~Johnny Cash

  #7  
Old January 20th 07, 12:52 AM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.space.history
Pat Flannery
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18,465
Default Did The Chinese Violate Any Treaties?



Rand Simberg wrote:
Yes, but as I said, it's interesting. In a civil case, a deliberate
act would carry a higher penalty, perhaps with punitive damages.


Again though... how do you prove it?
One of your satellites suddenly stops transmitting while heading through
the debris cloud, and you can say the ASAT's debris is the most likely
candidate for what caused it to malfunction, but without going up and
getting it to look at the damage, how do you know it was not just a
malfunction, a meteor strike, or collision with some other piece of
unrelated space debris?
Even if it has a hole in it that was made by a piece of metal hitting
it, unless you can get detailed info on the exact alloys the Chinese
used in their satellite and ASAT, that won't work.
That having been said, the Chinese were mighty sloppy and inconsiderate
in doing this in this manner.
They have created a space debris problem, either through intention, or
simply because they didn't give a damn (and I suspect the former).
It's rather like your neighbor burning garbage whenever he notes that
the wind is blowing in your direction.

Pat

  #8  
Old January 19th 07, 09:42 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.space.history
Rand Simberg[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,311
Default Did The Chinese Violate Any Treaties?

On 19 Jan 2007 12:14:14 -0800, in a place far, far away, "Ed Kyle"
made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such a
way as to indicate that:

Rand Simberg wrote:
On not making messes in space? My dim understanding is that this
remains unsettled in the Liability Convention, due to an inability to
agree on a definition of the word "debris." Any space lawyers out
there more up to date?

I'd think that, at a minimum, if any of the bits strike someone's
satellite, or ISS, that the Chinese could be held liable under the
OST. If it could be proven that it resulted from this event, that is
(probably a difficult thing to do).


They wouldn't be any more liable than the U.S. for the two Delta
stages that fragmented and created clouds of debris in LEO last
year. Or Japan for its H-2A upper stage that blew up last year.
Or Russia, which blew up a Kosmos satellite in LEO late last
year.


Did any of those incidents result in damage to a third party?
  #9  
Old January 19th 07, 10:36 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.space.history
ed kyle
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 276
Default Did The Chinese Violate Any Treaties?


Rand Simberg wrote:
On 19 Jan 2007 12:14:14 -0800, in a place far, far away, "Ed Kyle"
made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such a
way as to indicate that:

Rand Simberg wrote:
On not making messes in space? My dim understanding is that this
remains unsettled in the Liability Convention, due to an inability to
agree on a definition of the word "debris." Any space lawyers out
there more up to date?

I'd think that, at a minimum, if any of the bits strike someone's
satellite, or ISS, that the Chinese could be held liable under the
OST. If it could be proven that it resulted from this event, that is
(probably a difficult thing to do).


They wouldn't be any more liable than the U.S. for the two Delta
stages that fragmented and created clouds of debris in LEO last
year. Or Japan for its H-2A upper stage that blew up last year.
Or Russia, which blew up a Kosmos satellite in LEO late last
year.


Did any of those incidents result in damage to a third party?


Not yet, but then neither has the broken up Chinese satellite.

- Ed Kyle

  #10  
Old January 19th 07, 10:40 PM posted to sci.space.policy,sci.space.history
Rand Simberg[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,311
Default Did The Chinese Violate Any Treaties?

On 19 Jan 2007 13:36:49 -0800, in a place far, far away, "Ed Kyle"
made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such a
way as to indicate that:


Rand Simberg wrote:
On 19 Jan 2007 12:14:14 -0800, in a place far, far away, "Ed Kyle"
made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such a
way as to indicate that:

Rand Simberg wrote:
On not making messes in space? My dim understanding is that this
remains unsettled in the Liability Convention, due to an inability to
agree on a definition of the word "debris." Any space lawyers out
there more up to date?

I'd think that, at a minimum, if any of the bits strike someone's
satellite, or ISS, that the Chinese could be held liable under the
OST. If it could be proven that it resulted from this event, that is
(probably a difficult thing to do).

They wouldn't be any more liable than the U.S. for the two Delta
stages that fragmented and created clouds of debris in LEO last
year. Or Japan for its H-2A upper stage that blew up last year.
Or Russia, which blew up a Kosmos satellite in LEO late last
year.


Did any of those incidents result in damage to a third party?


Not yet, but then neither has the broken up Chinese satellite.


That's why I wrote "if any of the bits strike someone's satellite, or
ISS." We know that's not going to occur with any of the other cases
you mentioned. It still may for this one.
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
US space weapons no threat, but 'treaties' may be Jim Oberg Policy 1 November 13th 06 04:52 PM
European and Chinese space cooperation highlighted by visit of Chinese Prime Minister Jacques van Oene News 0 December 10th 04 04:29 PM
Chinese Constellations alt.clearing.O5 Astronomy Misc 1 November 2nd 03 01:10 AM
Chinese spacecraft RDG History 83 November 1st 03 09:46 PM
Chinese do it! Andrew Tubbiolo Policy 48 October 28th 03 08:23 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:56 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 SpaceBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.