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#1
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Did The Chinese Violate Any Treaties?
On not making messes in space? My dim understanding is that this
remains unsettled in the Liability Convention, due to an inability to agree on a definition of the word "debris." Any space lawyers out there more up to date? I'd think that, at a minimum, if any of the bits strike someone's satellite, or ISS, that the Chinese could be held liable under the OST. If it could be proven that it resulted from this event, that is (probably a difficult thing to do). |
#2
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Did The Chinese Violate Any Treaties?
Rand Simberg wrote:
On not making messes in space? My dim understanding is that this remains unsettled in the Liability Convention, due to an inability to agree on a definition of the word "debris." Any space lawyers out there more up to date? I'd think that, at a minimum, if any of the bits strike someone's satellite, or ISS, that the Chinese could be held liable under the OST. If it could be proven that it resulted from this event, that is (probably a difficult thing to do). They wouldn't be any more liable than the U.S. for the two Delta stages that fragmented and created clouds of debris in LEO last year. Or Japan for its H-2A upper stage that blew up last year. Or Russia, which blew up a Kosmos satellite in LEO late last year. I don't see a treaty issue, unless it was China trying to get the U.S. to agree to negotiate a no-arms-in-space treaty with it and Russia as it has called for in the past. - Ed Kyle |
#3
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Did The Chinese Violate Any Treaties?
On 19 Jan 2007 12:14:14 -0800, in a place far, far away, "Ed Kyle"
made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that: Rand Simberg wrote: On not making messes in space? My dim understanding is that this remains unsettled in the Liability Convention, due to an inability to agree on a definition of the word "debris." Any space lawyers out there more up to date? I'd think that, at a minimum, if any of the bits strike someone's satellite, or ISS, that the Chinese could be held liable under the OST. If it could be proven that it resulted from this event, that is (probably a difficult thing to do). They wouldn't be any more liable than the U.S. for the two Delta stages that fragmented and created clouds of debris in LEO last year. Or Japan for its H-2A upper stage that blew up last year. Or Russia, which blew up a Kosmos satellite in LEO late last year. It's interesting that there's no distinction made between accidents and a deliberate act. |
#4
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Did The Chinese Violate Any Treaties?
Rand Simberg wrote: On 19 Jan 2007 12:14:14 -0800, in a place far, far away, "Ed Kyle" made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that: Rand Simberg wrote: On not making messes in space? My dim understanding is that this remains unsettled in the Liability Convention, due to an inability to agree on a definition of the word "debris." Any space lawyers out there more up to date? I'd think that, at a minimum, if any of the bits strike someone's satellite, or ISS, that the Chinese could be held liable under the OST. If it could be proven that it resulted from this event, that is (probably a difficult thing to do). They wouldn't be any more liable than the U.S. for the two Delta stages that fragmented and created clouds of debris in LEO last year. Or Japan for its H-2A upper stage that blew up last year. Or Russia, which blew up a Kosmos satellite in LEO late last year. It's interesting that there's no distinction made between accidents and a deliberate act. I think the liability would be the same either way. - Ed Kyle |
#5
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Did The Chinese Violate Any Treaties?
On 19 Jan 2007 13:35:31 -0800, in a place far, far away, "Ed Kyle"
made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that: They wouldn't be any more liable than the U.S. for the two Delta stages that fragmented and created clouds of debris in LEO last year. Or Japan for its H-2A upper stage that blew up last year. Or Russia, which blew up a Kosmos satellite in LEO late last year. It's interesting that there's no distinction made between accidents and a deliberate act. I think the liability would be the same either way. Yes, but as I said, it's interesting. In a civil case, a deliberate act would carry a higher penalty, perhaps with punitive damages. |
#6
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Did The Chinese Violate Any Treaties?
On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 15:39:39 -0600, Rand Simberg wrote
(in article ): On 19 Jan 2007 13:35:31 -0800, in a place far, far away, "Ed Kyle" made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that: They wouldn't be any more liable than the U.S. for the two Delta stages that fragmented and created clouds of debris in LEO last year. Or Japan for its H-2A upper stage that blew up last year. Or Russia, which blew up a Kosmos satellite in LEO late last year. It's interesting that there's no distinction made between accidents and a deliberate act. I think the liability would be the same either way. Yes, but as I said, it's interesting. In a civil case, a deliberate act would carry a higher penalty, perhaps with punitive damages. Don't play lawyer, Rand. In civil cases, the factors to be considered in awarding punitive damages vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, and the intent of the actor is but one factor to consider. -- You can run on for a long time, Sooner or later, God'll cut you down. ~Johnny Cash |
#7
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Did The Chinese Violate Any Treaties?
Rand Simberg wrote: Yes, but as I said, it's interesting. In a civil case, a deliberate act would carry a higher penalty, perhaps with punitive damages. Again though... how do you prove it? One of your satellites suddenly stops transmitting while heading through the debris cloud, and you can say the ASAT's debris is the most likely candidate for what caused it to malfunction, but without going up and getting it to look at the damage, how do you know it was not just a malfunction, a meteor strike, or collision with some other piece of unrelated space debris? Even if it has a hole in it that was made by a piece of metal hitting it, unless you can get detailed info on the exact alloys the Chinese used in their satellite and ASAT, that won't work. That having been said, the Chinese were mighty sloppy and inconsiderate in doing this in this manner. They have created a space debris problem, either through intention, or simply because they didn't give a damn (and I suspect the former). It's rather like your neighbor burning garbage whenever he notes that the wind is blowing in your direction. Pat |
#8
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Did The Chinese Violate Any Treaties?
On 19 Jan 2007 12:14:14 -0800, in a place far, far away, "Ed Kyle"
made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that: Rand Simberg wrote: On not making messes in space? My dim understanding is that this remains unsettled in the Liability Convention, due to an inability to agree on a definition of the word "debris." Any space lawyers out there more up to date? I'd think that, at a minimum, if any of the bits strike someone's satellite, or ISS, that the Chinese could be held liable under the OST. If it could be proven that it resulted from this event, that is (probably a difficult thing to do). They wouldn't be any more liable than the U.S. for the two Delta stages that fragmented and created clouds of debris in LEO last year. Or Japan for its H-2A upper stage that blew up last year. Or Russia, which blew up a Kosmos satellite in LEO late last year. Did any of those incidents result in damage to a third party? |
#9
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Did The Chinese Violate Any Treaties?
Rand Simberg wrote: On 19 Jan 2007 12:14:14 -0800, in a place far, far away, "Ed Kyle" made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that: Rand Simberg wrote: On not making messes in space? My dim understanding is that this remains unsettled in the Liability Convention, due to an inability to agree on a definition of the word "debris." Any space lawyers out there more up to date? I'd think that, at a minimum, if any of the bits strike someone's satellite, or ISS, that the Chinese could be held liable under the OST. If it could be proven that it resulted from this event, that is (probably a difficult thing to do). They wouldn't be any more liable than the U.S. for the two Delta stages that fragmented and created clouds of debris in LEO last year. Or Japan for its H-2A upper stage that blew up last year. Or Russia, which blew up a Kosmos satellite in LEO late last year. Did any of those incidents result in damage to a third party? Not yet, but then neither has the broken up Chinese satellite. - Ed Kyle |
#10
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Did The Chinese Violate Any Treaties?
On 19 Jan 2007 13:36:49 -0800, in a place far, far away, "Ed Kyle"
made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that: Rand Simberg wrote: On 19 Jan 2007 12:14:14 -0800, in a place far, far away, "Ed Kyle" made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that: Rand Simberg wrote: On not making messes in space? My dim understanding is that this remains unsettled in the Liability Convention, due to an inability to agree on a definition of the word "debris." Any space lawyers out there more up to date? I'd think that, at a minimum, if any of the bits strike someone's satellite, or ISS, that the Chinese could be held liable under the OST. If it could be proven that it resulted from this event, that is (probably a difficult thing to do). They wouldn't be any more liable than the U.S. for the two Delta stages that fragmented and created clouds of debris in LEO last year. Or Japan for its H-2A upper stage that blew up last year. Or Russia, which blew up a Kosmos satellite in LEO late last year. Did any of those incidents result in damage to a third party? Not yet, but then neither has the broken up Chinese satellite. That's why I wrote "if any of the bits strike someone's satellite, or ISS." We know that's not going to occur with any of the other cases you mentioned. It still may for this one. |
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