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The Battle for Marjah: US Must Win with Both Hands Tied Behind it's Back



 
 
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  #21  
Old February 18th 10, 01:59 AM posted to us.military.army,sci.space.policy,sci.military.naval
Jonathan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 267
Default The Battle for Marjah: US Must Win with Both Hands Tied Behind it's Back


"William Black" wrote in message
...

"Jonathan" wrote in message
...

Legitimacy only flows from the people. Tell me, exactly
how do the Afghan people in and around Marjah feel about this
offensive?


That's easy. They'd like the very loud bangs to stop, please, right now...



What makes you say that?
The Grand Ayatollah Sistani, who represents the majority of Iraq, didn't have
any problem with our campaign in Fallujah.



The UN, and common decency, has ruled it legal for us to attempt
to return the ability of the Afghan people to make those decisions
by themselves.


Return?

When did the people of Afghanistan ever have that right?



Opportunity might have been a better word. But you make my
point, Afghanistan has suffered at the hands of dictators for too long.
Which is why it's such a hellhole.



We have military bases almost everywhere. Plenty. What we want
is to establish the domino effect within Islam. Where one dictatorship
after another falls to democracy. The domino effect only works
with things people...want, democracy. Not with dictatorships.


The Taliban is not a dictatorship.



Any top down or rigid control structure is a dictatorship. Whether
that dictatorship is economic, religious or military doesn't really
matter. Such control systems all suffer from the same fatal flaws
and generally end up going out in a horrific Blaze of Glory.

A rigid or dogmatic control structure, where the power is in the hands
of a few, are highly resistant to change. The people constantly change
their needs, desires and interests. The two camps inherently drift
apart over time from the simple fact one is highly adaptive, the other
is highly resistant to change.

A dictatorship is destined for conflict internally, and also with democracies
for the same reason.

A govt must have the ability to quickly adapt.



--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.



All unnatural systems have an expiration date.
Democracy reflects a natural system. (positive sum)
Dictatorships reflect a man-made system. (negative sum)

With good and evil appropriately assigned to each.
As in Natural vs Man-made.
Since one creates, and the other destroys.


s











  #22  
Old February 18th 10, 02:46 AM posted to us.military.army,sci.space.policy,sci.military.naval
Arved Sandstrom
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3
Default The Battle for Marjah: US Must Win with Both Hands Tied Behindit's Back

Jonathan wrote:
"William Black" wrote in message
...
"Jonathan" wrote in message
...

Legitimacy only flows from the people. Tell me, exactly
how do the Afghan people in and around Marjah feel about this
offensive?

That's easy. They'd like the very loud bangs to stop, please, right now...



What makes you say that?
The Grand Ayatollah Sistani, who represents the majority of Iraq, didn't have
any problem with our campaign in Fallujah.

[ SNIP ]

But I'll bet that the people in Fallujah would have liked the very loud
bangs to stop, please, right now...

AHS
  #23  
Old February 18th 10, 03:46 AM posted to us.military.army,sci.space.policy,sci.military.naval
Jonathan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 267
Default The Battle for Marjah: US Must Win with Both Hands Tied Behind it's Back


"Arved Sandstrom" wrote in message
news:FZ0fn.68024$PH1.1203@edtnps82...
Jonathan wrote:
"William Black" wrote in message
...
"Jonathan" wrote in message
...

Legitimacy only flows from the people. Tell me, exactly
how do the Afghan people in and around Marjah feel about this
offensive?
That's easy. They'd like the very loud bangs to stop, please, right
now...



What makes you say that?
The Grand Ayatollah Sistani, who represents the majority of Iraq, didn't have
any problem with our campaign in Fallujah.

[ SNIP ]

But I'll bet that the people in Fallujah would have liked the very loud bangs
to stop, please, right now...



The reason Baghdad /every day/ had one 'very loud bang' after another is due
to the fact that just forty miles to the west lies a Sunni insurgent stronghold
called Fallujah. When a lawless city, like Fallujah, has as it's only export an
unending stream of car- bombs, dedicated to blowing up only crowded
market places full of women, and schools full of little girls, then NOT taking
over
Fallujah would be a crime against humanity.

The Ayatollah and the Iraqi govt constantly criticized us for not bringing
enough
troops to be able to stop the car and suicide bombings, mostly coming from
Fallujah, which accounted for roughly /half/ of all the ...Iraqi...casualites.

In December 2006, the city had become stable enough to return control back
to the Iraqi forces. Take a look at this chart and what happend ...after 2006.

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/


I bet the same will be true for Marjah with the steadily increasing violence
in Afghanistan. It's the difference between winning or losing.
Not to mention getting rid of half the world's heroin crop.






AHS



  #24  
Old February 18th 10, 05:50 PM posted to us.military.army,sci.space.policy,sci.military.naval
William Black[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 43
Default The Battle for Marjah: US Must Win with Both Hands Tied Behind it's Back


"Jonathan" wrote in message
...

"William Black" wrote in message
...

"Jonathan" wrote in message
...

Legitimacy only flows from the people. Tell me, exactly
how do the Afghan people in and around Marjah feel about this
offensive?


That's easy. They'd like the very loud bangs to stop, please, right
now...



What makes you say that?
The Grand Ayatollah Sistani, who represents the majority of Iraq, didn't
have
any problem with our campaign in Fallujah.


Because nobody in Afghanistanreally cares what religious leaders say unless
it's 'kill the infidels'.


The Taliban is not a dictatorship.



Any top down or rigid control structure is a dictatorship. Whether
that dictatorship is economic, religious or military doesn't really
matter.


That shows a terrifying lack of understanding about how Pathan society and
something called Pashtunwali works.

Pathan society works as an absolute democracy.

Anyone trying to impose upon them just gets shot.

The men doing the shooting are doing the shooting because they want to do
the shooting. Their families respect thatd ecision even if they don't agree
with it. Leaders are selected by the jirga (an assembly of all the men
involved) based, usually, on wealth and reputation.

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

  #25  
Old February 18th 10, 07:04 PM posted to us.military.army,sci.space.policy,sci.military.naval
Jack Linthicum
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 290
Default The Battle for Marjah: US Must Win with Both Hands Tied Behindit's Back

On Feb 15, 8:12*pm, "Jonathan" wrote:


Someone seems to have untied those hands. But of course everyone knows
that Obama is so soft on terrorism and is unable to do anything in
Afghanistan. Hey, Ali, have you seen my rolladex? Or maybe Mr. Baradar
just likes to chat. Sans augment interrogation techniques. Pfffft!

February 19, 2010
In Blow to Taliban, 2 More Senior Leaders Are Arrested
By DEXTER FILKINS

KABUL, Afghanistan — Two senior Taliban leaders have been arrested in
recent days inside Pakistan, officials said Thursday, as American and
Pakistani intelligence agents continued to press their offensive
against the group’s leadership after the capture of the insurgency’s
military commander last month.

Afghan officials said the Taliban’s “shadow governors” for two
provinces in northern Afghanistan had been detained in Pakistan by
officials there. Mullah Abdul Salam, the Taliban’s leader in Kunduz,
was detained in the Pakistani city of Faisalabad, and Mullah Mir
Mohammed of Baghlan Province was also captured in an undisclosed
Pakistani city, they said.

The arrests come on the heels of the capture of Abdul Ghani Baradar,
the Taliban’s military commander and the deputy to Mullah Muhammad
Omar, the movement’s founder. Mr. Baradar was arrested in a joint
operation by the C.I.A. and the ISI, Pakistan’s military intelligence
agency.

The arrests were made by Pakistani officials, the Afghans said, but it
seemed probable that C.I.A. officers accompanied them, as they did in
the arrest of Mr. Baradar. Pakistani officials declined to comment.

Together, the three arrests mark the most significant blow to the
Taliban’s leadership since the American-backed war began eight years
ago. They also demonstrate the extent to which the Taliban’s senior
leaders have been able to use Pakistan as a sanctuary to plan and
mount attacks in Afghanistan.

A senior United States official, speaking on condition of anonymity,
said that the arrest of the two shadow governors was unrelated to Mr.
Baradar’s capture.

Even so, Muhammad Omar, the governor of Kunduz Province, said in an
interview that the two Taliban shadow governors maintained a close
working relationship with Mr. Baradar.

“Mullah Salam and Mullah Mohammed were the most merciless
individuals,” said Gen. Razaq Yaqoobi, police chief of Kunduz
Province. “Most of the terror, executions and other crimes committed
in northern Afghanistan were on their orders.”

The immediate impact of the arrests of the two Taliban governors was
unclear. In the short term, it could probably be expected to hurt the
Taliban’s operations somewhat and possibly demoralize their rank-and-
file fighters, but probably not for long. In the past the Taliban have
proved capable of quickly replacing their killed or captured leaders.

The three recent arrests — all in Pakistan — demonstrate a greater
level of cooperation by Pakistan in hunting leaders of the Afghan
Taliban than in the entire eight years of war. American officials have
complained bitterly since 2001 that the Pakistanis, while claiming to
be American allies and accepting American aid were simultaneously
providing sanctuary and assistance to Taliban fighters and leaders who
were battling the Americans across the border.

In conversations with American officials, Pakistani officials would
often claim not to know about the existence of the “Quetta Shura,” the
name given to the council of senior Taliban leaders that used the
Pakistani city of Quetta as a sanctuary for years. It was the Quetta
Shura — also known as the Supreme Council — that Mr. Baradar presided
over.

It is still far from clear, but senior commanders in Afghanistan say
they believe that the Pakistani military and intelligence agencies,
led by Gens. Ashfaq Parvez Kayani and Ahmed Shuja Pasha, may finally
be coming around to the belief that the Taliban — in Pakistan and
Afghanistan — constitute a threat to the existence of the Pakistani
state.

“I believe that General Kayani and his leaders have come to the
conclusion that they want us to succeed,” a senior NATO officer in
Kabul said.

Word of the arrests of the shadow governors came as American, Afghan
and British forces continue to press ahead with their largest military
operation to date, in the Afghan agricultural town of Marja. Earlier
this month, on the eve of the Marja invasion, Afghan officials also
detained Marja’s shadow governor as he tried to flee the country.

The Taliban figures are commonly referred to as “shadow governors”
because their identities are secret and because they mirror the
legitimate governors appointed by the Afghan government. The Taliban’s
shadow governors oversee all military and political operations in a
given area.

Even before the arrests in Pakistan, the American and Afghan military
and intelligence services appeared to have been enjoying a run of
success against Taliban leaders inside Afghanistan.

The senior NATO officer, speaking on condition of anonymity, said
American forces had detained or killed “three or four” Taliban
provincial governors in the past several weeks, including the
Taliban’s shadow governor for Laghman Province.

Another NATO officer, also speaking on the condition of anonymity,
said that Mullah Zakhir, the Taliban’s military commander for southern
Afghanistan, had been ordered back to Pakistan before the Marja
offensive.

Indeed, the capture of two Taliban governors inside Pakistan may
reflect the greater level of insecurity that all Taliban leaders are
feeling inside Afghanistan at the moment.

“The Taliban are feeling a new level of pain,” the senior NATO officer
said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/19/wo...gewanted=print
  #26  
Old February 18th 10, 11:06 PM posted to us.military.army,sci.space.policy,sci.military.naval
Eric Chomko[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,853
Default The Battle for Marjah: US Must Win with Both Hands Tied Behindit's Back

On Feb 17, 5:57*am, Jack Linthicum
wrote:
On Feb 17, 4:27*am, "William Black"
wrote:



"Andrew Swallow" wrote in message


...


Ray O'Hara wrote:
"William Black" wrote in message
{snip}


The Taliban is not a dictatorship.


*What is it? its certainly not a republican form of government.
a theoracy is a type of dictatorship
From the outside the Taliban feels like a group of war lords.


No no no...


That's our side...


--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, *like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.


Seems more like what Americans call a "Yard Sale", everyone
participates until the profits start to dwindle.


Yard sales yield a profit? Heck I thought yard sales were for getting
rid of stuff that you think others may want that you haven't donated
to charity or thrown out, and that aren't worth putting on eBay.
  #27  
Old February 18th 10, 11:24 PM posted to us.military.army,sci.space.policy,sci.military.naval
Jack Linthicum
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 290
Default The Battle for Marjah: US Must Win with Both Hands Tied Behindit's Back

On Feb 18, 5:06*pm, Eric Chomko wrote:
On Feb 17, 5:57*am, Jack Linthicum
wrote:



On Feb 17, 4:27*am, "William Black"
wrote:


"Andrew Swallow" wrote in message


...


Ray O'Hara wrote:
"William Black" wrote in message
{snip}


The Taliban is not a dictatorship.


*What is it? its certainly not a republican form of government.
a theoracy is a type of dictatorship
From the outside the Taliban feels like a group of war lords.


No no no...


That's our side...


--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, *like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.


Seems more like what Americans call a "Yard Sale", everyone
participates until the profits start to dwindle.


Yard sales yield a profit? Heck I thought yard sales were for getting
rid of stuff that you think others may want that you haven't donated
to charity or thrown out, and that aren't worth putting on eBay.


In the neighborhood yard sales I have participated in the "good" stuff
goes early, pretty much at the listed price. Towards the third or
fourth hour items are sold for the buyer's price, finally the junk is
given away.
  #28  
Old February 19th 10, 01:39 AM posted to us.military.army,sci.space.policy,sci.military.naval
Jonathan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 267
Default The Battle for Marjah: US Must Win with Both Hands Tied Behind it's Back


"William Black" wrote in message
...

"Jonathan" wrote in message



Any top down or rigid control structure is a dictatorship. Whether
that dictatorship is economic, religious or military doesn't really
matter.




That shows a terrifying lack of understanding about how Pathan society and
something called Pashtunwali works.

Pathan society works as an absolute democracy.



And you think that's what is going on in Marjah today?
Are these tribal elders responsible for the ...92 ...tons...of
poppy seed the US confiscated from Marjah just last spring?
Did the people consent, or are they being forced to plant poppy
and arm insurgents?

The US has respect for the tribal system used in the region
as it reflect many democratic principle.

For example....

Fallujah

"The new mayor of the city Taha Bidaywi Hamed, selected by
local tribal leaders was strongly pro-American"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallujah


Only a city of sociopaths would voluntarily consent to the
mass processing of the most addictive drug on the face of
the planet, painting a deadly target over the entire city and
all it's people? Even Evo Morales understands the immorality
of doing something like that. The Taliban have forcibly taken
over and rule as any dictatorship would, by the few imposing
their decisions by fear and force. Not by the consent of the
people, where legitimacy resides.


Anyone trying to impose upon them just gets shot.



And I think the reality is that the Taliban are imposing themselves
in order to profit from the massive drug trade. We are the ones
freeing them from a recently imposed dictatorship. Or more
accurately a large criminal entrerprise.



The men doing the shooting are doing the shooting because they want to do the
shooting. Their families respect thatd ecision even if they don't agree with
it. Leaders are selected by the jirga (an assembly of all the men involved)
based, usually, on wealth and reputation.



Without the Taliban that could become a reality, but not if we let
the entire country become controlled by the largest Drug Cartel
in the world. Is that what your arguing for?

Like it was before 9/11?



--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.



  #29  
Old February 19th 10, 02:07 AM posted to us.military.army,sci.space.policy,sci.military.naval
Jonathan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 267
Default The Battle for Marjah: US Must Win with Both Hands Tied Behind it's Back


"Jack Linthicum" wrote in message
...
On Feb 15, 8:12 pm, "Jonathan" wrote:


Someone seems to have untied those hands. But of course everyone knows
that Obama is so soft on terrorism and is unable to do anything in
Afghanistan. Hey, Ali, have you seen my rolladex? Or maybe Mr. Baradar
just likes to chat. Sans augment interrogation techniques. Pfffft!


February 19, 2010
In Blow to Taliban, 2 More Senior Leaders Are Arrested
By DEXTER FILKINS


Well, remember that Clinton tended to defer to the military.
He was quoted as saying his lack of service meant he didn't
have enough credibility to ignore the Pentagon's advice.

I think the same thing is going on here. They seem to be applying
all the lessons learned in Iraq to this operation. It was clear
during most of Iraq that the Pentagon brass wanted more troops
and nation building then Bush/Cheney wanted.

So far so good. Hopefully our military has finally figured out
how to 'win the hearts and minds'.

And today I read the US claims to already have control over most
of they city. The paper also said the insurgents were forcing civilians
to stand in the windows and on the roofs of buildings they
were using to fire at our troops.


s





KABUL, Afghanistan - Two senior Taliban leaders have been arrested in
recent days inside Pakistan, officials said Thursday, as American and
Pakistani intelligence agents continued to press their offensive
against the group's leadership after the capture of the insurgency's
military commander last month.

Afghan officials said the Taliban's "shadow governors" for two
provinces in northern Afghanistan had been detained in Pakistan by
officials there. Mullah Abdul Salam, the Taliban's leader in Kunduz,
was detained in the Pakistani city of Faisalabad, and Mullah Mir
Mohammed of Baghlan Province was also captured in an undisclosed
Pakistani city, they said.

The arrests come on the heels of the capture of Abdul Ghani Baradar,
the Taliban's military commander and the deputy to Mullah Muhammad
Omar, the movement's founder. Mr. Baradar was arrested in a joint
operation by the C.I.A. and the ISI, Pakistan's military intelligence
agency.

The arrests were made by Pakistani officials, the Afghans said, but it
seemed probable that C.I.A. officers accompanied them, as they did in
the arrest of Mr. Baradar. Pakistani officials declined to comment.

Together, the three arrests mark the most significant blow to the
Taliban's leadership since the American-backed war began eight years
ago. They also demonstrate the extent to which the Taliban's senior
leaders have been able to use Pakistan as a sanctuary to plan and
mount attacks in Afghanistan.

A senior United States official, speaking on condition of anonymity,
said that the arrest of the two shadow governors was unrelated to Mr.
Baradar's capture.

Even so, Muhammad Omar, the governor of Kunduz Province, said in an
interview that the two Taliban shadow governors maintained a close
working relationship with Mr. Baradar.

"Mullah Salam and Mullah Mohammed were the most merciless
individuals," said Gen. Razaq Yaqoobi, police chief of Kunduz
Province. "Most of the terror, executions and other crimes committed
in northern Afghanistan were on their orders."

The immediate impact of the arrests of the two Taliban governors was
unclear. In the short term, it could probably be expected to hurt the
Taliban's operations somewhat and possibly demoralize their rank-and-
file fighters, but probably not for long. In the past the Taliban have
proved capable of quickly replacing their killed or captured leaders.

The three recent arrests - all in Pakistan - demonstrate a greater
level of cooperation by Pakistan in hunting leaders of the Afghan
Taliban than in the entire eight years of war. American officials have
complained bitterly since 2001 that the Pakistanis, while claiming to
be American allies and accepting American aid were simultaneously
providing sanctuary and assistance to Taliban fighters and leaders who
were battling the Americans across the border.

In conversations with American officials, Pakistani officials would
often claim not to know about the existence of the "Quetta Shura," the
name given to the council of senior Taliban leaders that used the
Pakistani city of Quetta as a sanctuary for years. It was the Quetta
Shura - also known as the Supreme Council - that Mr. Baradar presided
over.

It is still far from clear, but senior commanders in Afghanistan say
they believe that the Pakistani military and intelligence agencies,
led by Gens. Ashfaq Parvez Kayani and Ahmed Shuja Pasha, may finally
be coming around to the belief that the Taliban - in Pakistan and
Afghanistan - constitute a threat to the existence of the Pakistani
state.

"I believe that General Kayani and his leaders have come to the
conclusion that they want us to succeed," a senior NATO officer in
Kabul said.

Word of the arrests of the shadow governors came as American, Afghan
and British forces continue to press ahead with their largest military
operation to date, in the Afghan agricultural town of Marja. Earlier
this month, on the eve of the Marja invasion, Afghan officials also
detained Marja's shadow governor as he tried to flee the country.

The Taliban figures are commonly referred to as "shadow governors"
because their identities are secret and because they mirror the
legitimate governors appointed by the Afghan government. The Taliban's
shadow governors oversee all military and political operations in a
given area.

Even before the arrests in Pakistan, the American and Afghan military
and intelligence services appeared to have been enjoying a run of
success against Taliban leaders inside Afghanistan.

The senior NATO officer, speaking on condition of anonymity, said
American forces had detained or killed "three or four" Taliban
provincial governors in the past several weeks, including the
Taliban's shadow governor for Laghman Province.

Another NATO officer, also speaking on the condition of anonymity,
said that Mullah Zakhir, the Taliban's military commander for southern
Afghanistan, had been ordered back to Pakistan before the Marja
offensive.

Indeed, the capture of two Taliban governors inside Pakistan may
reflect the greater level of insecurity that all Taliban leaders are
feeling inside Afghanistan at the moment.

"The Taliban are feeling a new level of pain," the senior NATO officer
said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/19/wo...gewanted=print



  #30  
Old February 19th 10, 04:26 AM posted to us.military.army,sci.space.policy,sci.military.naval
David E. Powell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 231
Default The Battle for Marjah: US Must Win with Both Hands Tied Behindit's Back

On Feb 18, 8:07*pm, "Jonathan" wrote:
"Jack Linthicum" wrote in message

...
On Feb 15, 8:12 pm, "Jonathan" wrote:

Someone seems to have untied those hands. But of course everyone knows
that Obama is so soft on terrorism and is unable to do anything in
Afghanistan. Hey, Ali, have you seen my rolladex? Or maybe Mr. Baradar
just likes to chat. Sans augment interrogation techniques. Pfffft!
February 19, 2010
In Blow to Taliban, 2 More Senior Leaders Are Arrested
By DEXTER FILKINS


Well, remember that Clinton tended to defer to the military.
He was quoted as saying his lack of service meant he didn't
have enough credibility to ignore the Pentagon's advice.

I think the same thing is going on here. They seem to be applying
all the lessons learned in Iraq to this operation. It was clear
during most of Iraq that the Pentagon brass wanted more troops
and nation building then Bush/Cheney wanted.


The key may well have been McCain's opposition to Rumsfeld, who had
been behind the small footprint strategy, which worked great in
initial attack and capture of Iraq and Afghanistan but was criticised
fro too low a footprint after.

So far so good. Hopefully our military has finally figured out
how to 'win the hearts and minds'.


Agreed, and to combine it with the tactics that work in the field to
isolate guerrillas, drive off support, marginalize them and dry their
support base. Force them to either quit or stand in place in ground
where they can't move well enough to hit and run.
 




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