Climate change

On Jun 29, 4:59*pm, oriel36 wrote:

That is incorrect,the natural noon cycles are unequal and there is no
external reference for independent daily rotation through 360 degrees
in 24 hours,

Precisely. But there is an external reference for independent daily
rotation through 360 degrees in 23 hours, 56 minutes, and 4 seconds.
So we think it makes abundant sense to start with that.

John Savard

On Jun 29, 8:11*pm, Sam Wormley wrote:

* *Speaking of sorting out, Gerald, bring your stop watch and together
* *we will time the 360° rotation of the earth -- and verify it to be
* *86,164.09+ seconds. Let me know if you need airfare.

Here's a simpler question for him. Does the Moon rotate?

John Savard

Quadibloc wrote:

On Jun 29, 8:11*pm, Sam Wormley wrote:

* *Speaking of sorting out, Gerald, bring your stop watch and together
* *we will time the 360° rotation of the earth -- and verify it to be
* *86,164.09+ seconds. Let me know if you need airfare.

Here's a simpler question for him. Does the Moon rotate?

Oooh, hey, that's a good one.

He will of course neither answer with a yes or a no nor make any
meaningful claims at all about the Moon's rotation or orbit.

Guaranteed or your money back.
--
Dave

On Jun 30, 3:11*am, Sam Wormley wrote:
oriel36 wrote:

That is incorrect,the natural noon cycles are unequal and there is no
external reference for independent daily rotation through 360 degrees
in 24 hours,it is a quirk of how the average 24 hour day is transfered
to daily rotation as a constant after the Equation of Time is applied
to natural noon as one 24 hour day turns into the next 24 hour day
then so is rotation kept constant.

I am satisfied that the message is finally getting through where it
matters *and can leave you and the rest to sort things out among
yourselves *in creating whatever story you like based on 'sidereal
time'.

* *Speaking of sorting out, Gerald, bring your stop watch and together
* *we will time the 360° rotation of the earth -- and verify it to be
* *86,164.09+ seconds. Let me know if you need airfare.

Well Sam,for a guy who was honest enough to come out and say that the
Equation of Time does not have any links with the daily cycle says
more about the other people in this forum than it does about you -

Rotation of bodies, including the Earth has nothing to do with the
equation of time. The Equation of time deals with the "solar day" and
elliptical orbit of the earth about the sun.... totally independent
of the measure of rotation of the earth. - Sam Wormley

The Earth turns at 69.17 miles every 4 minutes at the Equator and
turning with a slower speed towards the geographical poles,it is so
fundamental and enjoyable that I welcome any of those websites which
show that if you turn a world globe once,you will turn 1 hour through
15 degrees and 24 hours through 360 degrees -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF85O9SJCaE

http://www.ncgia.ucsb.edu/education/...s/table02.html

I don't really consider you or anyone else anything at the moment,only
unbearable for doing what you do for no good reason other than you
have an indoctrinated story built up in your head.The spirit of a
nation is about individual freedom to do your best,not the
indoctrinated ideologies which condition things to a dull and dour
consensus which is why all the empiricists here detest faith and
intuitive intelligence which balances the spirit of an individual with
the productive background of a nation.

I don't appeal to you nor do I mind if you believe the 'sidereal time'
expresses daily rotation ,the great timekeeping system which links the
daily cycle with 24 hours is just one of those enjoyable things that
does not require too much effort to see how the pieces fit together
yet get it wrong and you lose planetary dynamics and much else.It is a
matter of finding people who like using modern imaging and can work
with planetary dynamics and cast a brief gaze at the amazing wordplay
and astrological framework of the last century.

On Jun 30, 7:13*pm, Sam Wormley wrote:
oriel36 wrote:
On Jun 30, 3:11 am, Sam Wormley wrote:
* *Speaking of sorting out, Gerald, bring your stop watch and together
* *we will time the 360° rotation of the earth -- and verify it to be
* *86,164.09+ seconds. Let me know if you need airfare.

Well Sam,for a guy who was honest enough to come out and say that the
Equation of Time does not have any links with the daily cycle says
more about the other people in this forum than it does about you -

* *Rotation of bodies, including the Earth has nothing to do with the
* *equation of time. The Equation of time deals with the "solar day" and
* *elliptical orbit of the earth about the sun.... totally independent
* *of the measure of rotation of the earth. - * Sam Wormley

The Earth turns at 69.17 miles *every 4 minutes at the Equator and
turning with a slower speed towards the geographical poles,it is so
fundamental and enjoyable that I welcome any of those websites which
show that if you turn a world globe once,you will turn 1 hour through
15 degrees and 24 hours through 360 degrees -

* *My approach to trying to have a conversation with you, Gerald, is
* *to simplify to a single concept... say the rotion of the earth.

* *Then later, we can add the sun, moon or whatever.

* *But the simple rotation of the earth is just that... and earth rotates
* *about 361° in 24 hours or more precisely it rotates 360° in 86,164.09+
* *seconds. Once that is confirmed by observation (as it is every day)
* *we can start to add in other things, like the earth's orbit about the
* *sun.

* *We have to keep the concepts simple and have clarity before building
* *on to the more complex.

You do not have to do anything other than accept how the 24 hour day
is extracted as an average from the natural noon inequality over an
orbit,how this 24 hour day takes on the terms of Monday/Tuesday/
Wednesday and how that average was adapted to the daily cycle as a
constant .

Rotation of bodies, including the Earth has nothing to do with the
equation of time. The Equation of time deals with the "solar day" and
elliptical orbit of the earth about the sun.... totally independent
of the measure of rotation of the earth. - Sam Wormley

When you write something like that Sam without the slightest hint of
objection from anyone else then even I have to concede the
unchallenged luxuries of saying whatever you wish,something which
happened after 1905,then any semblance of a conversation nigh on
impossible.

http://www.aboutromania.com/World2.gif

Turn a world globe once and the 24 hour meridians follow suit at 1
hour per 15 degrees of geographical separation or 4 minutes for every
69.17 miles travelled at the maximum Equatorial speed.Somehow you and
the rest have an aversion to this correlation and I am at a loss to
explain it beyond the confines of a cult consensus because the
alternative 'sidereal time' value has a definite beginning with
Flamsteed and his inverted references.

You teach sidereal time as anything other than an observational
convenience in American schools and you introduce old world prejudices
of the worst kind,teach the longitude principles which link daily
rotation and clocks to planetary geometry and things become lively and
enjoyable again for your student and good for the wellbeing of a
country.Even without explaining the Equation of Time correction needed
to make the system work,an agreed convention which splits the Earth
into time and geographical separation through its rotational
characteristics -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF85O9SJCaE

People calling me insane for believing the Earth rotates once in 24
hours with the reasoning to support it has become unbearable,not
because there are about 50 different alternative attempts to make
observations fit the 'sidereal time' value,but that the intellectual
platform which creates the daily and calendar timekeeping averages is
so enjoyable. and so important.

On Jun 30, 11:25*am, oriel36 wrote:
I welcome any of those websites which
show that if you turn a world globe once,you will turn 1 hour through
15 degrees and 24 hours through 360 degrees -

If you turn a world globe once, you will indeed turn it through 360
degrees.

One of the specifics of the Earth's orbit around the Sun is that the
Earth's rotational north pole is pointed towards Polaris all year
long.

So if you took one of those old-style world globes that is held by the
poles from an arc having a scale of latitude on it, tilted by 23 1/2
degrees, and you carried it around a wastebasket to simulate its
orbit, you would have to keep that spine pointed in the same direction
all the time.

So if you advance the globe a little less than one degree in a circle
around the wastebasket to simulate one day's orbital motion, and you
also spin the globe around on its base, you would have to rotate it
that one extra degree to correspond to 24 hours. If you just rotate it
by what seems to be a full circle, to the same orientation relative to
its base, then you have only moved it by 23 hours, 56 minutes, and 4
seconds' worth of rotation.

John Savard

On Jun 30, 10:54*am, Dave Typinski wrote:
Quadibloc wrote:

Here's a simpler question for him. Does the Moon rotate?

Oooh, hey, that's a good one.

He will of course neither answer with a yes or a no nor make any
meaningful claims at all about the Moon's rotation or orbit. *

Guaranteed or your money back.

You may well be right. But if he answered "no", that would at least be
fully consistent with his identifying 24 hours as the period of the
Earth's rotation.

John Savard

Quadibloc wrote:

On Jun 30, 10:54*am, Dave Typinski wrote:
Quadibloc wrote:

Here's a simpler question for him. Does the Moon rotate?

Oooh, hey, that's a good one.

He will of course neither answer with a yes or a no nor make any
meaningful claims at all about the Moon's rotation or orbit. *

Guaranteed or your money back.

You may well be right. But if he answered "no", that would at least be
fully consistent with his identifying 24 hours as the period of the
Earth's rotation.

Yep. I suspect that he knows that the Moon does rotate and that he is
at complete loss for a way to reconcile the fact with his ideas about
rotation.

Since he hasn't done so by now, I suspect he'll pretend the question
doesn't exist. Much easier that way, you know.

When you /know/ your intuition is right, you needn't bother with
pedestrian things like cogent arguments.
--
Dave

On Jun 30, 8:26*pm, Dave Typinski m wrote:
Quadibloc wrote:
On Jun 30, 10:54 am, Dave Typinski m wrote:
Quadibloc wrote:

Here's a simpler question for him. Does the Moon rotate?

Oooh, hey, that's a good one.

He will of course neither answer with a yes or a no nor make any
meaningful claims at all about the Moon's rotation or orbit.

Guaranteed or your money back.

You may well be right. But if he answered "no", that would at least be
fully consistent with his identifying 24 hours as the period of the
Earth's rotation.

Yep. *I suspect that he knows that the Moon does rotate and that he is
at complete loss for a way to reconcile the fact with his ideas about
rotation.

Since he hasn't done so by now, I suspect he'll pretend the question
doesn't exist. *Much easier that way, you know.

When you /know/ your intuition is right, you needn't bother with
pedestrian things like cogent arguments.

*Does* he know the Moon rotates?

Or is he consistent, and does he claim that the Moon orbits the Earth,
and that is all that it does; it keeps one side towards the Earth, and
so the fact that the return of a star on the Moon would seem - to an
imaginary observer - to take place in about a month is an irrelevant
external reference... considering the Moon's rotation, or lack
thereof, in any frame but the one embodying the relation between it
and its parent, the Earth, is illegal framehopping.

I don't see why he couldn't be perfectly consistent here.

Just as the Equation of Time shows why we have to think of the Earth
rotating in 23 hours, 56 minutes and 4 seconds, libration (in
longitude) shows why we have to think of the Moon as rotating, of
course.

John Savard

On Jul 1, 4:11*am, Sam Wormley wrote:
oriel36 wrote:
On Jun 30, 7:13 pm, Sam Wormley wrote:
* *Rotation of bodies, including the Earth has nothing to do with the
* *equation of time. The Equation of time deals with the "solar day" and
* *elliptical orbit of the earth about the sun.... totally independent
* *of the measure of rotation of the earth. - * Sam Wormley

When you write something like that Sam without the slightest hint of
objection from anyone else then even I have to concede the
unchallenged luxuries of saying whatever you wish,something which
happened after 1905,then any semblance of a conversation nigh on
impossible.

* *You need a trip to the north pole, Gerald... not only will you see
* *the sun go around 361° of the horizon in 24 hours, but with the simple
* *telescope, you can see that Polaris stays with half a degree of the
* *polar axis the whole 24 hours, confirming that the earth axis is tilted
* *with respect to the ecliptic resulting in seasons.


Somehow you can have the Sun and stars together in the same sky just
like the 'sidereal time vs solar time' hoax ( I have worked within
the Arctic circle in Northern Norway ) but like all the other things
ranging from history to technical issues,these are just things you
have built up in your head and do not exist in actuality.

I noticed that at the end of of every news item,the NOAA articles now
puts a slogan or mantra on -

"NOAA understands and predicts changes in the Earth's environment,
from the depths of the ocean to the surface of the sun, and conserves
and manages our coastal and marine resources. "

http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories...90622_hfc.html

Yet a simple search using 'seasons' as the keyword on its website
brings up the usual explanation -

http://www.crh.noaa.gov/fsd/astro/season.php

Even allowing for the unrelenting and universal hostility towards the
issue of the dynamics behind seasonal changes,an organisation heavily
involved in global climate like NOAA is obligated to explain the
seasonal temperature variations first and properly in order to
discriminate between seasonal weather and global climate inputs and
this is not happening insofar as referencing 'tilt' to the central
Sun,trying to make weather look like climate and then issuing
conclusions based on a single item like carbon dioxide has all the
hallmarks of desperation and recklessness.


* *Prepare to stay for six months so you can watch the sun "sink away"
* *as we head into winter.

I worked in Northern Norway which is why I know that the major input
for seasonal temperature variations is not inclination to solar
radiation based on 'tilt' but on the length of time a large
latitudinal area spends in solar radiation and in the orbital shadow
along with oceanic and continental factors.The problem with modifying
the view of 'tilt' which you inherit from Copernicus is that even a
story can be manufactured to ignore that Copernicus expressed seasonal
variations using variable tilt to the Sun -

"... the equator and the earth's axis must be understood to have a
variable inclination. For if they stayed at a constant angle, and were
affected exclusively by the motion of the centre, no inequality of
days and nights would be observed. On the contrary,it day or the day
of equal daylight and darkness, or summer or winter, or whatever the
character of the season, it would remain identical and unchanged."
Copernicus

A society that can distort even the ground rules,which is exactly what
'axial tilt to the orbital plane' does does not have a clear platform
to discuss the seasons let alone global climate.

40 years ago this month,a nation and its can-do spirit of individual
achievements put men on the moon in competition with a commie ideology
with its emphasis on communal conformity,considering that anyone who
now dares call attention to the reckless conclusion linking carbon
dioxide directly to global temperature variations to the exclusion of
all else is shunned and ignored while even basic planetary dynamics
fact are distorted,is not living in the same America which produced
the space program.