Life in the atmospheres of L-class stars.

Life in the atmosphere of a brown dwarf or a
hot or cooler gas giant has been speculated
before, like in Arthur C Clarke's Meeting
with Medusa.

I am interested in the question of: What
types of life-complexity chemistry could
exist at the temperatures of 1,300–2,000
K?

It seems to me hard to envision a type
of life existing in the mostly hydrogen
atmosphere of a hot Jupiter, with some
other gases and materials admixed into
it.

Nonetheless, there would be a very
continuous energy output from the
surface of a low temperature red dwarf
for possibly even trillions of years, over
a surface area that would be much
larger than a terrestrial planet.

Going from life on a hot Jupiter to
life on the surface of a very cool
red dwarf might not be that great a
step.

Maybe the one is impossible, but
I am not sure if the other is
vastly more impossible or not.

What could be complex, but
at the same time maintain
integrity at that high a temperature?

Strange Creature wrote:
[snip]

I am interested in the question of: What
types of life-complexity chemistry could
exist at the temperatures of 1,300–2,000
K?
[snip rest]

None - certainly none at less than geodynamic pressures. Life
requires dense interactive information. That is not available gas
phase. Inorganic chemistry lacks the structural maleability to do
"biologically" interesting things in real time.

The sun's core is well-modeled by Ideal Gas equations of state. That
assumes no selective interactions. Collapsed matter cores may be
different - but don't bet on it.

--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/lajos.htm#a2

On May 3, 8:55*pm, Strange Creature
wrote:
Life in the atmosphere of a brown dwarf or a
hot or cooler gas giant has been speculated
before, like in Arthur C Clarke's Meeting
with Medusa.

I am interested in the question of: *What
types of life-complexity chemistry could
exist at the temperatures of 1,300–2,000
*K?

It seems to me hard to envision a type
of life existing in the mostly hydrogen
atmosphere of a hot Jupiter, with some
other gases and materials admixed into
it.

Nonetheless, there would be a very
continuous energy output from the
surface of a low temperature red dwarf
for possibly even trillions of years, over
a surface area that would be much
larger than a terrestrial planet.

Going from life on a hot Jupiter to
life on the surface of a very cool
red dwarf might not be that great a
step.

Maybe the one is impossible, but
I am not sure if the other is
vastly more impossible or not.

What could be complex, but
at the same time maintain
integrity at that high a temperature?

Complex forms of interactive energy can coexist at such high
temperatures (mostly fluid and/or gaseous), but not likely as
intelligent unless the unexpected qualifies.

~ BG

On May 4, 10:03*am, Uncle Al wrote:
Strange Creature wrote:

[snip]

I am interested in the question of: *What
types of life-complexity chemistry could
exist at the temperatures of 1,300–2,000
*K?

[snip rest]

None - certainly none at less than geodynamic pressures. *Life
requires dense interactive information. *That is not available gas
phase. *Inorganic chemistry lacks the structural maleability to do
"biologically" interesting things in real time.

The sun's core is well-modeled by Ideal Gas equations of state. *That
assumes no selective interactions. *Collapsed matter cores may be
different - but don't bet on it.

--
Uncle Alhttp://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
*(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/lajos.htm#a2

Sirius C of .06 solar mass could be an L-class star, having a few
Earth sized moons hosting life.

~ BG

Strange Creature wrote:
Life in the atmosphere of a brown dwarf or a
hot or cooler gas giant has been speculated
before, like in Arthur C Clarke's Meeting
with Medusa.

I am interested in the question of: What
types of life-complexity chemistry could
exist at the temperatures of 1,300–2,000
K?

It seems to me hard to envision a type
of life existing in the mostly hydrogen
atmosphere of a hot Jupiter, with some
other gases and materials admixed into
it.

Nonetheless, there would be a very
continuous energy output from the
surface of a low temperature red dwarf
for possibly even trillions of years, over
a surface area that would be much
larger than a terrestrial planet.

So are you asking about life actually evolving in the atmosphere of a
star or gas giant? Or are you asking about life evolving on a
terrestrial planet in orbit around said star or gas giant?

If the latter, then there's a good likelihood. If it's the former, then
a bad likelihood, very bad.

It seems almost impossible that life can exist even on the surface of a
planet like Venus, let alone on the surface of a star.

Yousuf Khan

Yousuf Khan wrote:
So are you asking about life actually evolving in the atmosphere of a
star or gas giant? Or are you asking about life evolving on a
terrestrial planet in orbit around said star or gas giant?

If the latter, then there's a good likelihood. If it's the former, then
a bad likelihood, very bad.

It seems almost impossible that life can exist even on the surface of a
planet like Venus, let alone on the surface of a star.

Yousuf Khan


Incredible how you can make such assertions without any real knowledge
about the polymers of iron under a gravity many times stronger than
earth and with enormous pressures.

Conditions in a star are VERY difficult to replicate here and nobody
knows what is happening with iron-sulfur polymers in a sea of liquid
iron+ other compounds agitated slowly during billions of years.

WHAT DO YOU KNOW?

Absolutely nothing, just like me.

Normally I appreciate your contributions but excuse me, this time
I have to disagree. A better answer would be:

We have NO DATA nor any serious research about iron-sulfur polymers
in conditions of huge pressures and temperatures.

Period.

--
jacob navia
jacob at jacob point remcomp point fr
logiciels/informatique
http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~lcc-win32

On May 4, 12:42*pm, Yousuf Khan wrote:
Strange Creature wrote:
Life in the atmosphere of a brown dwarf or a
hot or cooler gas giant has been speculated
before, like in Arthur C Clarke's Meeting
with Medusa.

I am interested in the question of: *What
types of life-complexity chemistry could
exist at the temperatures of 1,300–2,000
*K?

It seems to me hard to envision a type
of life existing in the mostly hydrogen
atmosphere of a hot Jupiter, with some
other gases and materials admixed into
it.

Nonetheless, there would be a very
continuous energy output from the
surface of a low temperature red dwarf
for possibly even trillions of years, over
a surface area that would be much
larger than a terrestrial planet.

So are you asking about life actually evolving in the atmosphere of a
star or gas giant? Or are you asking about life evolving on a
terrestrial planet in orbit around said star or gas giant?

If the latter, then there's a good likelihood. If it's the former, then
a bad likelihood, very bad.

It seems almost impossible that life can exist even on the surface of a
planet like Venus, let alone on the surface of a star.

* * * * Yousuf Khan

Unless there's applied technology to go along with whatever
intelligent design, that could reformulate life that's far more robust
than we can imagine.

We're made out of wussy atoms, instead of those robust atoms that can
cope and obviously coexist within such extreme energy fields.

Btw, don't be so quick to knock Venus.

I assume you have photo enlarging software that's far better than
mine, but simply do not know how to use it.

~ BG

On May 4, 2:07 pm, jacob navia wrote:
Yousuf Khan wrote:
So are you asking about life actually evolving in the atmosphere of a
star or gas giant? Or are you asking about life evolving on a
terrestrial planet in orbit around said star or gas giant?

If the latter, then there's a good likelihood. If it's the former, then
a bad likelihood, very bad.

It seems almost impossible that life can exist even on the surface of a
planet like Venus, let alone on the surface of a star.

Yousuf Khan

Incredible how you can make such assertions without any real knowledge
about the polymers of iron under a gravity many times stronger than
earth and with enormous pressures.

Conditions in a star are VERY difficult to replicate here and nobody
knows what is happening with iron-sulfur polymers in a sea of liquid
iron+ other compounds agitated slowly during billions of years.

WHAT DO YOU KNOW?

Absolutely nothing, just like me.

Normally I appreciate your contributions but excuse me, this time
I have to disagree. A better answer would be:

We have NO DATA nor any serious research about iron-sulfur polymers
in conditions of huge pressures and temperatures.

Period.

--
jacob navia
jacob at jacob point remcomp point fr
logiciels/informatiquehttp://www.cs.virginia.edu/~lcc-win32

The laws of chemistry and physics would
still apply.

The further in that you go to a star, however,
the density increases but the temperature
rises. The possibility of any residual
chemical bond maintaining its integrity
due to the increased pressure would
seem to be offset by the temperature
increase. There would still be energy
flow from the interior of the star, however,
an energy sink might be a problem if
you are talking about some type of
reaction from radiation that could
be selective like that of photosynthesis,
however that is hard to say.

I would guess that on the surface of
a white dwarf or a neutron star you
would still have residual energy flowing
out from the interior of the star, even
if there is no nuclear fusion happening
in the interior any more.

The surface area for those objects is
much closer to that of a terrestrial planet.

For the one, you would need some sort
of complex interactions to happen in the
hot dense carbon aggregation of the
white dwarf material.

For the other, you would have to
ponder the question as to whether
there could be complex types of
interactions among the different
nuclei of the neutron star material,
using nuclear forces while they
are also partially bound to
each other by gravity.

I would guess that would cover
nearly all matter aggregates
as potential harbingers or at
least generators of life in
the universe.

Nebula have very rarefied matter
contained within them. Black holes
generally have only intermittent energy
flow into them.

As far as dark matter is concerned,
well, what is it? Could dark matter
be a source of life in the universe?
Well, it is hard to say what it is.
It would seem probable that it
would not be a potential source
of life, but it is not really known.

On May 4, 2:52*pm, Strange Creature
wrote:
On May 4, 2:07 pm, jacob navia wrote:



Yousuf Khan wrote:
So are you asking about life actually evolving in the atmosphere of a
star or gas giant? Or are you asking about life evolving on a
terrestrial planet in orbit around said star or gas giant?

If the latter, then there's a good likelihood. If it's the former, then
a bad likelihood, very bad.

It seems almost impossible that life can exist even on the surface of a
planet like Venus, let alone on the surface of a star.

* * Yousuf Khan

Incredible how you can make such assertions without any real knowledge
about the polymers of iron under a gravity many times stronger than
earth and with enormous pressures.

Conditions in a star are VERY difficult to replicate here and nobody
knows what is happening with iron-sulfur polymers in a sea of liquid
iron+ other compounds agitated slowly during billions of years.

WHAT DO YOU KNOW?

Absolutely nothing, just like me.

Normally I appreciate your contributions but excuse me, this time
I have to disagree. A better answer would be:

We have NO DATA nor any serious research about iron-sulfur polymers
in conditions of huge pressures and temperatures.

Period.

--
jacob navia
jacob at jacob point remcomp point fr
logiciels/informatiquehttp://www.cs.virginia.edu/~lcc-win32

The laws of chemistry and physics would
still apply.

The further in that you go to a star, however,
the density increases but the temperature
rises. *The possibility of any residual
chemical bond maintaining its integrity
due to the increased pressure would
seem to be offset by the temperature
increase. *There would still be energy
flow from the interior of the star, however,
an energy sink might be a problem if
you are talking about some type of
reaction from radiation that could
be selective like that of photosynthesis,
however that is hard to say.

I would guess that on the surface of
a white dwarf or a neutron star you
would still have residual energy flowing
out from the interior of the star, even
if there is no nuclear fusion happening
in the interior any more.

The surface area for those objects is
much closer to that of a terrestrial planet.

For the one, you would need some sort
of complex interactions to happen in the
hot dense carbon aggregation of the
white dwarf material.

For the other, you would have to
ponder the question as to whether
there could be complex types of
interactions among the different
nuclei of the neutron star material,
using nuclear forces while they
are also partially bound to
each other by gravity.

I would guess that would cover
nearly all matter aggregates
as potential harbingers or at
least generators of life in
the universe.

Nebula have very rarefied matter
contained within them. *Black holes
generally have only intermittent energy
flow into them.

As far as dark matter is concerned,
well, what is it? *Could dark matter
be a source of life in the universe?
Well, it is hard to say what it is.
It would seem probable that it
would not be a potential source
of life, but it is not really known.

What about white or clear antimatter holes?

There's simply so much we do not know, as well as much of what is
known that we're not being allow to know because it infringes in
something faith-based, or it isn't politically correct enough.

~ BG

Strange Creature wrote:
On May 4, 2:07 pm, jacob navia wrote:
Yousuf Khan wrote:
So are you asking about life actually evolving in the atmosphere of a
star or gas giant? Or are you asking about life evolving on a
terrestrial planet in orbit around said star or gas giant?
If the latter, then there's a good likelihood. If it's the former, then
a bad likelihood, very bad.
It seems almost impossible that life can exist even on the surface of a
planet like Venus, let alone on the surface of a star.
Yousuf Khan
Incredible how you can make such assertions without any real knowledge
about the polymers of iron under a gravity many times stronger than
earth and with enormous pressures.

Conditions in a star are VERY difficult to replicate here and nobody
knows what is happening with iron-sulfur polymers in a sea of liquid
iron+ other compounds agitated slowly during billions of years.

WHAT DO YOU KNOW?

Absolutely nothing, just like me.

Normally I appreciate your contributions but excuse me, this time
I have to disagree. A better answer would be:

We have NO DATA nor any serious research about iron-sulfur polymers
in conditions of huge pressures and temperatures.

Period.

--
jacob navia
jacob at jacob point remcomp point fr
logiciels/informatiquehttp://www.cs.virginia.edu/~lcc-win32

The laws of chemistry and physics would
still apply.


Obvious. What I am saying is that we do not have any clue of what those
laws predict for those temperatures and pressures with an iron+ other
compounds mixed in during billions of years.

Take the brown dwarf Gl 229B sitting about 40 AU away.
This brown dwarf is a few billion years old, with a
surface temperature of about 1000K. Its mass is in the
30-50 jupiter mass range (or 3-5% of our Sun).

It is a relatively young dwarf, and it has a life expectancy of hundreds
of billions of years since is radiates very little of its energy.

The surface of this star is slightly hotter than the surface of
Venus (around 200K hotter), and with a mass of 30 Jupiter it would
have a quite strong gravity. Molten metals could exist in its surface
or below, producing a very interesting chemistry. What do we know
about that?

Life is transmitting information, using some kind of encoded media
like polymers. Surely, Carbon Nitrogen organic compounds would
have a hard life there, but more resistant compounds with more, and more
energetic covalent bonds could very well exist. Note that here
we stabilize our compounds with sulfur bonds. Those compounds
could use other atoms with stronger covalent bonds to stabilize
themselves.

And besides, after a few billion years temperatures in the surface
would be lower, even if the life of the star is not even arrived at
its prime time. Water vapor has been detected in those stars.

The surface of the start would propose a VERY stable environment (after
the youth phase is over) for a MUCH longer period than what the sun
offers here on earth (around 6-7 billion years).

The further in that you go to a star, however,
the density increases but the temperature
rises. The possibility of any residual
chemical bond maintaining its integrity
due to the increased pressure would
seem to be offset by the temperature
increase.

Maybe. Maybe not. There is no data about that.

There would still be energy
flow from the interior of the star, however,
an energy sink might be a problem if
you are talking about some type of
reaction from radiation that could
be selective like that of photosynthesis,
however that is hard to say.


Yes. It is hard to say so you can't say it is impossible!

I would guess that on the surface of
a white dwarf or a neutron star you
would still have residual energy flowing
out from the interior of the star, even
if there is no nuclear fusion happening
in the interior any more.

The surface area for those objects is
much closer to that of a terrestrial planet.


Yes but there is the problem of the crushing gravity there.
In any case this possibility has been explored in science
fiction where a civilization living in that surface was
proposed.

For the one, you would need some sort
of complex interactions to happen in the
hot dense carbon aggregation of the
white dwarf material.


The surface could be an ocean of molten carbon.

Carbon can form stablme and highly stable compounds
like its crystalline form (diamonds) that offer the
possibility of giving a backbone to other kinds of
carbon polymers like furallenes and others that could
thrive in a stable diamond base.

For the other, you would have to
ponder the question as to whether
there could be complex types of
interactions among the different
nuclei of the neutron star material,
using nuclear forces while they
are also partially bound to
each other by gravity.


We know nothing about a neutron sea that would
cover the whole surface of neutron stars.

What happens there after a few billion years?
How does it behave when the star has cooled off and
moves about slowly in vacuum? Neutron stars could
offer even better conditions since it would be
a much more stable environment than a brown dwarf,
and would last for ages, hundreds of billions of years
until they completely cool off. They have a lot of energy
and very little surface to radiate it away. They are in
vacuum, what is not a very good heat conducting medium.

I would guess that would cover
nearly all matter aggregates
as potential harbingers or at
least generators of life in
the universe.

Nebula have very rarefied matter
contained within them. Black holes
generally have only intermittent energy
flow into them.

As far as dark matter is concerned,
well, what is it? Could dark matter
be a source of life in the universe?


Well, it is hard to say what it is.
It would seem probable that it
would not be a potential source
of life, but it is not really known.

Exactly. We know absolutely nothing about the
conditions in other environments where civilizations
of incredible ages could thrive.

And OF COURSE they do not visit earth!

Imagine a being from a neutron star... He could not
survive a microsecond here.

Besides, they would have a really hard time getting out.
We have the advantage of having to go faster than
11 Km/s and we are out of this planet. Escape speed
from a neutron star is several orders of magnitude
greater than that.

And carrying over their environment would be very costly.
They would be used to enormous pressures and gravity,
and probably would not feel very well without them :-)




--
jacob navia
jacob at jacob point remcomp point fr
logiciels/informatique
http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~lcc-win32