Light is much faster than you think

BG Yes man walked on the moon. It was no hollywood movie with special
effects. Apollo with its Saturn V rocket and great engineering had all
the right stuff. Nixon was at Ca Mafia. head man Walter Annenbergs
estate in Palm Springs and they put the shuttle program together. We see
the results 40 years later. Bert

On Oct 9, 9:33*pm, "Mark Earnest" wrote:
"Mark Earnest" wrote in message

...







"Nightcrawler" wrote in message
...
"Mark Earnest" wrote in message
ernetamerica...

But the galaxies are not at all in the locations that we currently see
them in. *They are where they were billions of years ago, and if we are
talking billions of years ago, we finally are talking about seeing the
Big Bang
if the galaxies are far enough away.

It is true that we are seeing them from billions of years ago, but we are
still seeing them "after" the BB. *BB first, primordial, cosmic soup
second.
Then we get into star and galaxy formation. *Meanwhile, space is still
expanding and the BB is already over.

On the other hand, maybe if you look far enough away, you can see
forever.

Just a poetic way of putting it.

Yes, a dreamers gaze upon the aether of times gone by.

If we look far enough away, the Big Bang will still be there, apparently
frozen in time.

Not a chance. *Though it would be neat if we could get some high speed
stop-action on the event. *The BB, if visible, would be in real time..
Just
another paradox to consider: *If we could see the BB then we wouldn't
exist yet. *Any and all effects of the BB are way past us, and truth be
told, we were always behind it and will never catch up to it. *If we
could
see a BB, now, then that would be a creation of another, new universe
inside of our own existing universe.

Think of the BB as a nuclear blast. *Once it starts there is no way to
view it if you are part of it. *If you are part of it, you don't exist to
view
it, yet.

We see all kinds of light in the universe that already happened.

Yes, but not twice. *You may only see the original once, everything
else is a reflection. *The only way to see the BB would be to exist
before it occurred.

I believe it will happen.

Beliefs are easy, now, aren't they?

Truths on the other hand...

If you could see fifty billion light years away, and the universe is only
about ten billion years old...there is no way that you could miss the
grand explosion.

In fact, you could see beyond the beginning of the universe...
...to whatever mysterious goings on happened before the universe
even existed.

All this is straining my brain a little, though...

Maybe that's the way the gods intended it.

I know what you are saying, you are saying that I am getting the cart before
the horse.

Just realize: when you look through a powerful telescope, you are actually
traveling through time.

And the fictional artists well know, when you travel through time,
strange things happen.


The Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation (CMBR) is the glow from the
universe at the time it became transparent. It has red-shifted all
the way down to radio waves as the universe has expanded. That is the
oldest light we can see. The best we can do is to analyse that. We
can calculate, for instance, our velocity relative to the CMBR rest
state (the state in which there is no relative red or blue shift of
the CMBR in any direction.) We have a motion of somewhere around 400
miles per second relative to the CMBR rest frame.

Double-A

"Double-A" wrote in message
...
On Oct 9, 9:33 pm, "Mark Earnest" wrote:
"Mark Earnest" wrote in message

...







"Nightcrawler" wrote in message
...
"Mark Earnest" wrote in message
ernetamerica...

But the galaxies are not at all in the locations that we currently see
them in. They are where they were billions of years ago, and if we are
talking billions of years ago, we finally are talking about seeing the
Big Bang
if the galaxies are far enough away.

It is true that we are seeing them from billions of years ago, but we
are
still seeing them "after" the BB. BB first, primordial, cosmic soup
second.
Then we get into star and galaxy formation. Meanwhile, space is still
expanding and the BB is already over.

On the other hand, maybe if you look far enough away, you can see
forever.

Just a poetic way of putting it.

Yes, a dreamers gaze upon the aether of times gone by.

If we look far enough away, the Big Bang will still be there,
apparently
frozen in time.

Not a chance. Though it would be neat if we could get some high speed
stop-action on the event. The BB, if visible, would be in real time.
Just
another paradox to consider: If we could see the BB then we wouldn't
exist yet. Any and all effects of the BB are way past us, and truth be
told, we were always behind it and will never catch up to it. If we
could
see a BB, now, then that would be a creation of another, new universe
inside of our own existing universe.

Think of the BB as a nuclear blast. Once it starts there is no way to
view it if you are part of it. If you are part of it, you don't exist
to
view
it, yet.

We see all kinds of light in the universe that already happened.

Yes, but not twice. You may only see the original once, everything
else is a reflection. The only way to see the BB would be to exist
before it occurred.

I believe it will happen.

Beliefs are easy, now, aren't they?

Truths on the other hand...

If you could see fifty billion light years away, and the universe is
only
about ten billion years old...there is no way that you could miss the
grand explosion.

In fact, you could see beyond the beginning of the universe...
...to whatever mysterious goings on happened before the universe
even existed.

All this is straining my brain a little, though...

Maybe that's the way the gods intended it.

I know what you are saying, you are saying that I am getting the cart
before
the horse.

Just realize: when you look through a powerful telescope, you are actually
traveling through time.

And the fictional artists well know, when you travel through time,
strange things happen.


The Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation (CMBR) is the glow from the
universe at the time it became transparent. It has red-shifted all
the way down to radio waves as the universe has expanded. That is the
oldest light we can see. The best we can do is to analyse that. We
can calculate, for instance, our velocity relative to the CMBR rest
state (the state in which there is no relative red or blue shift of
the CMBR in any direction.) We have a motion of somewhere around 400
miles per second relative to the CMBR rest frame.

Double-A

**How could the most brilliant flash of light of all time possibly be
trasparent? If all energy came from this, it must have been pretty bright.

On Oct 10, 3:42*pm, "Mark Earnest" wrote:
"Double-A" wrote in message

...
On Oct 9, 9:33 pm, "Mark Earnest" wrote:





"Mark Earnest" wrote in message

...

"Nightcrawler" wrote in message
...
"Mark Earnest" wrote in message
ernetamerica...

But the galaxies are not at all in the locations that we currently see
them in. They are where they were billions of years ago, and if we are
talking billions of years ago, we finally are talking about seeing the
Big Bang
if the galaxies are far enough away.

It is true that we are seeing them from billions of years ago, but we
are
still seeing them "after" the BB. BB first, primordial, cosmic soup
second.
Then we get into star and galaxy formation. Meanwhile, space is still
expanding and the BB is already over.

On the other hand, maybe if you look far enough away, you can see
forever.

Just a poetic way of putting it.

Yes, a dreamers gaze upon the aether of times gone by.

If we look far enough away, the Big Bang will still be there,
apparently
frozen in time.

Not a chance. Though it would be neat if we could get some high speed
stop-action on the event. The BB, if visible, would be in real time.
Just
another paradox to consider: If we could see the BB then we wouldn't
exist yet. Any and all effects of the BB are way past us, and truth be
told, we were always behind it and will never catch up to it. If we
could
see a BB, now, then that would be a creation of another, new universe
inside of our own existing universe.

Think of the BB as a nuclear blast. Once it starts there is no way to
view it if you are part of it. If you are part of it, you don't exist
to
view
it, yet.

We see all kinds of light in the universe that already happened.

Yes, but not twice. You may only see the original once, everything
else is a reflection. The only way to see the BB would be to exist
before it occurred.

I believe it will happen.

Beliefs are easy, now, aren't they?

Truths on the other hand...

If you could see fifty billion light years away, and the universe is
only
about ten billion years old...there is no way that you could miss the
grand explosion.

In fact, you could see beyond the beginning of the universe...
...to whatever mysterious goings on happened before the universe
even existed.

All this is straining my brain a little, though...

Maybe that's the way the gods intended it.

I know what you are saying, you are saying that I am getting the cart
before
the horse.

Just realize: when you look through a powerful telescope, you are actually
traveling through time.

And the fictional artists well know, when you travel through time,
strange things happen.

The Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation (CMBR) is the glow from the
universe at the time it became transparent. *It has red-shifted all
the way down to radio waves as the universe has expanded. *That is the
oldest light we can see. *The best we can do is to analyse that. *We
can calculate, for instance, our velocity relative to the CMBR rest
state (the state in which there is no relative red or blue shift of
the CMBR in any direction.) *We have a motion of somewhere around 400
miles per second relative to the CMBR rest frame.

Double-A

**How could the most brilliant flash of light of all time possibly be
trasparent? If all energy came from this, it must have been pretty bright..


It wasn't. The view we see is from 380,000 years later. The view
before that was more like the view you might see if you were in the
center of the Sun!

Double-A

"Double-A" wrote in message
...
On Oct 10, 3:42 pm, "Mark Earnest" wrote:
"Double-A" wrote in message

...
On Oct 9, 9:33 pm, "Mark Earnest" wrote:





"Mark Earnest" wrote in message

...

"Nightcrawler" wrote in message
...
"Mark Earnest" wrote in message
ernetamerica...

But the galaxies are not at all in the locations that we currently
see
them in. They are where they were billions of years ago, and if we
are
talking billions of years ago, we finally are talking about seeing
the
Big Bang
if the galaxies are far enough away.

It is true that we are seeing them from billions of years ago, but we
are
still seeing them "after" the BB. BB first, primordial, cosmic soup
second.
Then we get into star and galaxy formation. Meanwhile, space is still
expanding and the BB is already over.

On the other hand, maybe if you look far enough away, you can see
forever.

Just a poetic way of putting it.

Yes, a dreamers gaze upon the aether of times gone by.

If we look far enough away, the Big Bang will still be there,
apparently
frozen in time.

Not a chance. Though it would be neat if we could get some high speed
stop-action on the event. The BB, if visible, would be in real time.
Just
another paradox to consider: If we could see the BB then we wouldn't
exist yet. Any and all effects of the BB are way past us, and truth
be
told, we were always behind it and will never catch up to it. If we
could
see a BB, now, then that would be a creation of another, new universe
inside of our own existing universe.

Think of the BB as a nuclear blast. Once it starts there is no way to
view it if you are part of it. If you are part of it, you don't exist
to
view
it, yet.

We see all kinds of light in the universe that already happened.

Yes, but not twice. You may only see the original once, everything
else is a reflection. The only way to see the BB would be to exist
before it occurred.

I believe it will happen.

Beliefs are easy, now, aren't they?

Truths on the other hand...

If you could see fifty billion light years away, and the universe is
only
about ten billion years old...there is no way that you could miss the
grand explosion.

In fact, you could see beyond the beginning of the universe...
...to whatever mysterious goings on happened before the universe
even existed.

All this is straining my brain a little, though...

Maybe that's the way the gods intended it.

I know what you are saying, you are saying that I am getting the cart
before
the horse.

Just realize: when you look through a powerful telescope, you are
actually
traveling through time.

And the fictional artists well know, when you travel through time,
strange things happen.

The Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation (CMBR) is the glow from the
universe at the time it became transparent. It has red-shifted all
the way down to radio waves as the universe has expanded. That is the
oldest light we can see. The best we can do is to analyse that. We
can calculate, for instance, our velocity relative to the CMBR rest
state (the state in which there is no relative red or blue shift of
the CMBR in any direction.) We have a motion of somewhere around 400
miles per second relative to the CMBR rest frame.

Double-A

**How could the most brilliant flash of light of all time possibly be
trasparent? If all energy came from this, it must have been pretty bright.


It wasn't. The view we see is from 380,000 years later. The view
before that was more like the view you might see if you were in the
center of the Sun!


***If the Big Bang were as bright as being in the center of the Sun,
then surely if we could see 380,000 years after the Big Bang, we could
also look backward in time just a little bit more and see the big
inferno you speak of itself.

***Maybe the Hubbel just isn't powerful enough, and we will have
to build a really big one on the Moon to see it.

On Oct 10, 5:28*pm, "Mark Earnest" wrote:
"Double-A" wrote in message

...
On Oct 10, 3:42 pm, "Mark Earnest" wrote:





"Double-A" wrote in message

....
On Oct 9, 9:33 pm, "Mark Earnest" wrote:

"Mark Earnest" wrote in message

...

"Nightcrawler" wrote in message
...
"Mark Earnest" wrote in message
ernetamerica...

But the galaxies are not at all in the locations that we currently
see
them in. They are where they were billions of years ago, and if we
are
talking billions of years ago, we finally are talking about seeing
the
Big Bang
if the galaxies are far enough away.

It is true that we are seeing them from billions of years ago, but we
are
still seeing them "after" the BB. BB first, primordial, cosmic soup
second.
Then we get into star and galaxy formation. Meanwhile, space is still
expanding and the BB is already over.

On the other hand, maybe if you look far enough away, you can see
forever.

Just a poetic way of putting it.

Yes, a dreamers gaze upon the aether of times gone by.

If we look far enough away, the Big Bang will still be there,
apparently
frozen in time.

Not a chance. Though it would be neat if we could get some high speed
stop-action on the event. The BB, if visible, would be in real time.
Just
another paradox to consider: If we could see the BB then we wouldn't
exist yet. Any and all effects of the BB are way past us, and truth
be
told, we were always behind it and will never catch up to it. If we
could
see a BB, now, then that would be a creation of another, new universe
inside of our own existing universe.

Think of the BB as a nuclear blast. Once it starts there is no way to
view it if you are part of it. If you are part of it, you don't exist
to
view
it, yet.

We see all kinds of light in the universe that already happened.

Yes, but not twice. You may only see the original once, everything
else is a reflection. The only way to see the BB would be to exist
before it occurred.

I believe it will happen.

Beliefs are easy, now, aren't they?

Truths on the other hand...

If you could see fifty billion light years away, and the universe is
only
about ten billion years old...there is no way that you could miss the
grand explosion.

In fact, you could see beyond the beginning of the universe...
...to whatever mysterious goings on happened before the universe
even existed.

All this is straining my brain a little, though...

Maybe that's the way the gods intended it.

I know what you are saying, you are saying that I am getting the cart
before
the horse.

Just realize: when you look through a powerful telescope, you are
actually
traveling through time.

And the fictional artists well know, when you travel through time,
strange things happen.

The Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation (CMBR) is the glow from the
universe at the time it became transparent. It has red-shifted all
the way down to radio waves as the universe has expanded. That is the
oldest light we can see. The best we can do is to analyse that. We
can calculate, for instance, our velocity relative to the CMBR rest
state (the state in which there is no relative red or blue shift of
the CMBR in any direction.) We have a motion of somewhere around 400
miles per second relative to the CMBR rest frame.

Double-A

**How could the most brilliant flash of light of all time possibly be
trasparent? If all energy came from this, it must have been pretty bright.

It wasn't. *The view we see is from 380,000 years later. *The view
before that was more like the view you might see if you were in the
center of the Sun!

***If the Big Bang were as bright as being in the center of the Sun,
then surely if we could see 380,000 years after the Big Bang, we could
also look backward in time just a little bit more and see the big
inferno you speak of itself.

***Maybe the Hubbel just isn't powerful enough, and we will have
to build a really big one on the Moon to see it.


You are missing the point. You talk as if we could be outside the
universe and see it start out as a point of light. But we are trapped
inside of the universe and can't get out! As we look back trough
time, our perspective is shrinking along with the universe. Anything
we can see back then is from inside the universe, no matter how small
the universe was at that time. We never get a perspective from
outside it where we can watch it explode. Light coming from all
directions is all we could have seen back then, and so the CMBR coming
from all directions is all we can see today.

Double-A

"Double-A" wrote in message ...
On Oct 10, 5:28 pm, "Mark Earnest" wrote:
"Double-A" wrote in message

...
On Oct 10, 3:42 pm, "Mark Earnest" wrote:





"Double-A" wrote in message

....
On Oct 9, 9:33 pm, "Mark Earnest" wrote:

"Mark Earnest" wrote in message

...

"Nightcrawler" wrote in message
...
"Mark Earnest" wrote in message
ernetamerica...

But the galaxies are not at all in the locations that we currently
see
them in. They are where they were billions of years ago, and if we
are
talking billions of years ago, we finally are talking about seeing
the
Big Bang
if the galaxies are far enough away.

It is true that we are seeing them from billions of years ago, but we
are
still seeing them "after" the BB. BB first, primordial, cosmic soup
second.
Then we get into star and galaxy formation. Meanwhile, space is still
expanding and the BB is already over.

On the other hand, maybe if you look far enough away, you can see
forever.

Just a poetic way of putting it.

Yes, a dreamers gaze upon the aether of times gone by.

If we look far enough away, the Big Bang will still be there,
apparently
frozen in time.

Not a chance. Though it would be neat if we could get some high speed
stop-action on the event. The BB, if visible, would be in real time.
Just
another paradox to consider: If we could see the BB then we wouldn't
exist yet. Any and all effects of the BB are way past us, and truth
be
told, we were always behind it and will never catch up to it. If we
could
see a BB, now, then that would be a creation of another, new universe
inside of our own existing universe.

Think of the BB as a nuclear blast. Once it starts there is no way to
view it if you are part of it. If you are part of it, you don't exist
to
view
it, yet.

We see all kinds of light in the universe that already happened.

Yes, but not twice. You may only see the original once, everything
else is a reflection. The only way to see the BB would be to exist
before it occurred.

I believe it will happen.

Beliefs are easy, now, aren't they?

Truths on the other hand...

If you could see fifty billion light years away, and the universe is
only
about ten billion years old...there is no way that you could miss the
grand explosion.

In fact, you could see beyond the beginning of the universe...
...to whatever mysterious goings on happened before the universe
even existed.

All this is straining my brain a little, though...

Maybe that's the way the gods intended it.

I know what you are saying, you are saying that I am getting the cart
before
the horse.

Just realize: when you look through a powerful telescope, you are
actually
traveling through time.

And the fictional artists well know, when you travel through time,
strange things happen.

The Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation (CMBR) is the glow from the
universe at the time it became transparent. It has red-shifted all
the way down to radio waves as the universe has expanded. That is the
oldest light we can see. The best we can do is to analyse that. We
can calculate, for instance, our velocity relative to the CMBR rest
state (the state in which there is no relative red or blue shift of
the CMBR in any direction.) We have a motion of somewhere around 400
miles per second relative to the CMBR rest frame.

Double-A

**How could the most brilliant flash of light of all time possibly be
trasparent? If all energy came from this, it must have been pretty bright.

It wasn't. The view we see is from 380,000 years later. The view
before that was more like the view you might see if you were in the
center of the Sun!

***If the Big Bang were as bright as being in the center of the Sun,
then surely if we could see 380,000 years after the Big Bang, we could
also look backward in time just a little bit more and see the big
inferno you speak of itself.

***Maybe the Hubbel just isn't powerful enough, and we will have
to build a really big one on the Moon to see it.


You are missing the point. You talk as if we could be outside the
universe and see it start out as a point of light. But we are trapped
inside of the universe and can't get out! As we look back trough
time, our perspective is shrinking along with the universe. Anything
we can see back then is from inside the universe, no matter how small
the universe was at that time. We never get a perspective from
outside it where we can watch it explode. Light coming from all
directions is all we could have seen back then, and so the CMBR coming
from all directions is all we can see today.

Double-A
~~~~~~~~~~~

Check-out CTMU:

http://www.ctmu.org/
--
John C.

"Double-A" wrote in message
...
On Oct 10, 5:28 pm, "Mark Earnest" wrote:
"Double-A" wrote in message

...
On Oct 10, 3:42 pm, "Mark Earnest" wrote:





"Double-A" wrote in message

...
On Oct 9, 9:33 pm, "Mark Earnest" wrote:

"Mark Earnest" wrote in message

...

"Nightcrawler" wrote in message
...
"Mark Earnest" wrote in message
ernetamerica...

But the galaxies are not at all in the locations that we currently
see
them in. They are where they were billions of years ago, and if we
are
talking billions of years ago, we finally are talking about seeing
the
Big Bang
if the galaxies are far enough away.

It is true that we are seeing them from billions of years ago, but
we
are
still seeing them "after" the BB. BB first, primordial, cosmic soup
second.
Then we get into star and galaxy formation. Meanwhile, space is
still
expanding and the BB is already over.

On the other hand, maybe if you look far enough away, you can see
forever.

Just a poetic way of putting it.

Yes, a dreamers gaze upon the aether of times gone by.

If we look far enough away, the Big Bang will still be there,
apparently
frozen in time.

Not a chance. Though it would be neat if we could get some high
speed
stop-action on the event. The BB, if visible, would be in real
time.
Just
another paradox to consider: If we could see the BB then we
wouldn't
exist yet. Any and all effects of the BB are way past us, and truth
be
told, we were always behind it and will never catch up to it. If we
could
see a BB, now, then that would be a creation of another, new
universe
inside of our own existing universe.

Think of the BB as a nuclear blast. Once it starts there is no way
to
view it if you are part of it. If you are part of it, you don't
exist
to
view
it, yet.

We see all kinds of light in the universe that already happened.

Yes, but not twice. You may only see the original once, everything
else is a reflection. The only way to see the BB would be to exist
before it occurred.

I believe it will happen.

Beliefs are easy, now, aren't they?

Truths on the other hand...

If you could see fifty billion light years away, and the universe is
only
about ten billion years old...there is no way that you could miss
the
grand explosion.

In fact, you could see beyond the beginning of the universe...
...to whatever mysterious goings on happened before the universe
even existed.

All this is straining my brain a little, though...

Maybe that's the way the gods intended it.

I know what you are saying, you are saying that I am getting the cart
before
the horse.

Just realize: when you look through a powerful telescope, you are
actually
traveling through time.

And the fictional artists well know, when you travel through time,
strange things happen.

The Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation (CMBR) is the glow from the
universe at the time it became transparent. It has red-shifted all
the way down to radio waves as the universe has expanded. That is the
oldest light we can see. The best we can do is to analyse that. We
can calculate, for instance, our velocity relative to the CMBR rest
state (the state in which there is no relative red or blue shift of
the CMBR in any direction.) We have a motion of somewhere around 400
miles per second relative to the CMBR rest frame.

Double-A

**How could the most brilliant flash of light of all time possibly be
trasparent? If all energy came from this, it must have been pretty
bright.

It wasn't. The view we see is from 380,000 years later. The view
before that was more like the view you might see if you were in the
center of the Sun!

***If the Big Bang were as bright as being in the center of the Sun,
then surely if we could see 380,000 years after the Big Bang, we could
also look backward in time just a little bit more and see the big
inferno you speak of itself.

***Maybe the Hubbel just isn't powerful enough, and we will have
to build a really big one on the Moon to see it.


You are missing the point. You talk as if we could be outside the
universe and see it start out as a point of light. But we are trapped
inside of the universe and can't get out! As we look back trough
time, our perspective is shrinking along with the universe. Anything
we can see back then is from inside the universe, no matter how small
the universe was at that time. We never get a perspective from
outside it where we can watch it explode. Light coming from all
directions is all we could have seen back then, and so the CMBR coming
from all directions is all we can see today.

Double-A

**You are right that we are not outside of the universe now.
But we are outside the universe of 11.315 billion years ago.
We are beyond it.
Well beyond it.
And we can see it from the outside.
When we look at objects billions of light years away we
are time travelers for a little while, even if it is merely
as photographs of such objects.

On Oct 10, 8:33*am, (G=EMC^2 Glazier) wrote:
BG *Yes man walked on the moon. It was no hollywood movie with special
effects. Apollo with its Saturn V rocket and great engineering had all
the right stuff. Nixon was at Ca Mafia. head man Walter Annenbergs
estate in Palm Springs and they put the shuttle program together. We see
the results 40 years later. Bert

So far we see extremely fuzzy pixels that any 5th grader could just as
easily PhotoShop, and otherwise we have nothing objective. Even those
monochrome LROC images were substantially delayed from time of their
being obtained, and the other 99.9% of the LRO mission science is
still unusually slow or being kept as unavailable.

Nothing has changed about Kodak film, and our Selene/moon is still
nearly as dark as coal, but otherwise mineral saturated and UV
reactive. So, where the other 99.9% of our public funded science?

~ BG