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Ion drive for aircraft imminent.
On Tue, 1 Nov 2016 19:10:39 -0500, Yuri Kreaton
wrote: On 11/1/2016 4:13 PM, John Larkin wrote: On Tue, 1 Nov 2016 18:19:02 -0000, wrote: In sci.physics Robert Clark wrote: Nanotechnology makes possible an "ion drive" for air vehicles analogous to the famous ion drive of NASA's deep space probes: BTW, the lack of commercial success for flying cars has nothing to do with propulsion methods. But propulsion does matter, in the sense that there is no affordable way to make a flying car. Helicopters get terrible gas mileage. how many pounds of thrust does it take to keep 4000 pounds up in the air, stationary, and then gliding ? Sounds like 4000lbs. |
#13
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Ion drive for aircraft imminent.
On Tue, 1 Nov 2016 19:10:39 -0500, Yuri Kreaton
wrote: how many pounds of thrust does it take to keep 4000 pounds up in the air, stationary, and then gliding ? Zero using baloons: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy5qUexdMVI http://mavericklsa.com If you don't like the baloons: "4 Real Flying Cars That Actually Fly" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXuypU5lDsM "10 Amazing Flying Cars You Won't Believe" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-uq1Uqp_8g Sorry. I couldn't find any numbers on gas mileage. http://www.cessna150152.com/faqs/performance.htm A Cessna 150 gets 15 to 22 miles/gallon. My 2001 Subaru Forester gets about 21 miles/gallon. The difference is wasted fuel while idling, stop-n-go traffic, and an engine that's not optimized for operating in a narrow rpm range. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#14
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Ion drive for aircraft imminent.
In sci.physics krw wrote:
On Wed, 2 Nov 2016 00:00:54 -0000, wrote: In sci.physics John Larkin wrote: On Tue, 1 Nov 2016 18:19:02 -0000, wrote: snip BTW, the lack of commercial success for flying cars has nothing to do with propulsion methods. But propulsion does matter, in the sense that there is no affordable way to make a flying car. Helicopters get terrible gas mileage. You do know helicopters spend a fair amount of time not traveling, don't you, but that has nothing to do with flying cars. Cars spend a fair amount of time not driving, too. So? Not at close to full output power. -- Jim Pennino |
#15
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Ion drive for aircraft imminent.
In sci.physics Yuri Kreaton wrote:
On 11/1/2016 4:13 PM, John Larkin wrote: On Tue, 1 Nov 2016 18:19:02 -0000, wrote: In sci.physics Robert Clark wrote: Nanotechnology makes possible an "ion drive" for air vehicles analogous to the famous ion drive of NASA's deep space probes: BTW, the lack of commercial success for flying cars has nothing to do with propulsion methods. But propulsion does matter, in the sense that there is no affordable way to make a flying car. Helicopters get terrible gas mileage. how many pounds of thrust does it take to keep 4000 pounds up in the air, stationary, and then gliding ? Depends on what is generating the lift. 0 for a balloon, something more for other types of machines. -- Jim Pennino |
#16
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Ion drive for aircraft imminent.
Robert Clark wrote:
Nanotechnology makes possible an "ion drive" for air vehicles analogous to the famous ion drive of NASA's deep space probes: Carbon nanotubes for "Ionic Wind" Craft or "Ionocraft". Clark R* Department of Mathematics, Widener University, USA Review Article Volume 1 Issue 2 / Received Date: September 26, 2016 / Published Date: October 20, 2016 Abstract Peter Thiel of the Founders Fund once famously said, "We wanted flying cars, and we got 140 characters."But nanotechnology now does make possible the long desired flying cars. It's a different propulsion method though than propellers or jets however. It's propulsion by electric fields known as electrohydrodynamic propulsion (EHD). It works by ionizing air then using electric fields to propel the charged air molecules rearward, thus producing thrust. It's quite analogous to the famous space ion drive of NASA. EHD has been known at least since the sixties. Its problem is, as with ion drive, the thrust is so low. So far the EHD craft have not been able to lift both themselves and their power supplies. The ones made so far leave the power supply on the ground and connect to the craft through power cables. But the equations of EHD suggest the thrust for the power required gets larger for thinner ionizing wires. In fact if the wires are at the nanoscale then this important thrust-to-power ratio can be a hundred times higher than for the craft constructed so far. This would be enough to lift the craft and the power supply. This research is to prove what the mathematics suggests. Note that if it works then all propeller and rotor driven craft become obsolete. Also, intermediate range automobile travel would be taken over by the EHD craft, so a large proportion of carbon-emissions would be eliminated, replaced by this zero-emission travel method. In regards to space propulsion, since EHD is so similar to ion drive, using components at the nanoscale may also work to improve the thrust of ion drive. This would be important to shortening the flight times of spacecraft using such drives. This is important not just for robotic spacecraft but also satellites that use such ion drives to reach their final GEO destinations. As it is now, the ion drives used have such low thrust it takes months for such satellites to reach GEO, resulting in millions of dollars of lost revenue to the satellite companies. Being able to increase the thrust of these drives would reduce the flight time, and therefore reduce this lost revenue. Keywords: Electrohydrodynamic propulsion; Carbon nanotubes; Nanowires; Ionic wind; Ionocraft; Plasma drive https://medwinpublishers.com/NNOA/vo...=23&issueId=63 Bob Clark ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Finally, nanotechnology can now fulfill its potential to revolutionize 21st-century technology, from the space elevator, to private, orbital launchers, to 'flying cars'. This crowdfunding campaign is to prove it: Nanotech: from air to space. https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/n...ce/x/13319568/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What is the Isp? |
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Ion drive for aircraft imminent.
On 11/01/2016 08:09 AM, Robert Clark wrote:
Nanotechnology makes possible an "ion drive" for air vehicles analogous to the famous ion drive of NASA's deep space probes: SNIP I'll see your ion drive and raise you one baloney drive. It's very efficient, just plug it into the internet and it recharges. ----------------------------------------------------------- |
#18
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Ion drive for aircraft imminent.
On Wed, 2 Nov 2016 02:54:54 -0000, wrote:
In sci.physics krw wrote: On Wed, 2 Nov 2016 00:00:54 -0000, wrote: In sci.physics John Larkin wrote: On Tue, 1 Nov 2016 18:19:02 -0000, wrote: snip BTW, the lack of commercial success for flying cars has nothing to do with propulsion methods. But propulsion does matter, in the sense that there is no affordable way to make a flying car. Helicopters get terrible gas mileage. You do know helicopters spend a fair amount of time not traveling, don't you, but that has nothing to do with flying cars. Cars spend a fair amount of time not driving, too. So? Not at close to full output power. Helicopters don't have a throttle or an "off" button? |
#19
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Ion drive for aircraft imminent.
In sci.physics krw wrote:
On Wed, 2 Nov 2016 02:54:54 -0000, wrote: In sci.physics krw wrote: On Wed, 2 Nov 2016 00:00:54 -0000, wrote: In sci.physics John Larkin wrote: On Tue, 1 Nov 2016 18:19:02 -0000, wrote: snip BTW, the lack of commercial success for flying cars has nothing to do with propulsion methods. But propulsion does matter, in the sense that there is no affordable way to make a flying car. Helicopters get terrible gas mileage. You do know helicopters spend a fair amount of time not traveling, don't you, but that has nothing to do with flying cars. Cars spend a fair amount of time not driving, too. So? Not at close to full output power. Helicopters don't have a throttle or an "off" button? Of course they do but your response shows you know absolutely nothing about helicopters. When a helicopter is hovering, the engine(s) are at close to full power output without going anywhere. When a car is not moving, the engine is at idle. Get it now? And it still has nothing to do with flying cars. -- Jim Pennino |
#20
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Ion drive for aircraft imminent.
On 11/2/2016 1:33 AM, Robert Baer wrote:
Robert Clark wrote: Nanotechnology makes possible an "ion drive" for air vehicles analogous to the famous ion drive of NASA's deep space probes: Carbon nanotubes for "Ionic Wind" Craft or "Ionocraft". Clark R* Department of Mathematics, Widener University, USA Review Article Volume 1 Issue 2 / Received Date: September 26, 2016 / Published Date: October 20, 2016 Abstract Peter Thiel of the Founders Fund once famously said, "We wanted flying cars, and we got 140 characters."But nanotechnology now does make possible the long desired flying cars. It's a different propulsion method though than propellers or jets however. It's propulsion by electric fields known as electrohydrodynamic propulsion (EHD). It works by ionizing air then using electric fields to propel the charged air molecules rearward, thus producing thrust. It's quite analogous to the famous space ion drive of NASA. EHD has been known at least since the sixties. Its problem is, as with ion drive, the thrust is so low. So far the EHD craft have not been able to lift both themselves and their power supplies. The ones made so far leave the power supply on the ground and connect to the craft through power cables. But the equations of EHD suggest the thrust for the power required gets larger for thinner ionizing wires. In fact if the wires are at the nanoscale then this important thrust-to-power ratio can be a hundred times higher than for the craft constructed so far. This would be enough to lift the craft and the power supply. This research is to prove what the mathematics suggests. Note that if it works then all propeller and rotor driven craft become obsolete. Also, intermediate range automobile travel would be taken over by the EHD craft, so a large proportion of carbon-emissions would be eliminated, replaced by this zero-emission travel method. In regards to space propulsion, since EHD is so similar to ion drive, using components at the nanoscale may also work to improve the thrust of ion drive. This would be important to shortening the flight times of spacecraft using such drives. This is important not just for robotic spacecraft but also satellites that use such ion drives to reach their final GEO destinations. As it is now, the ion drives used have such low thrust it takes months for such satellites to reach GEO, resulting in millions of dollars of lost revenue to the satellite companies. Being able to increase the thrust of these drives would reduce the flight time, and therefore reduce this lost revenue. Keywords: Electrohydrodynamic propulsion; Carbon nanotubes; Nanowires; Ionic wind; Ionocraft; Plasma drive https://medwinpublishers.com/NNOA/vo...=23&issueId=63 Bob Clark ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Finally, nanotechnology can now fulfill its potential to revolutionize 21st-century technology, from the space elevator, to private, orbital launchers, to 'flying cars'. This crowdfunding campaign is to prove it: Nanotech: from air to space. https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/n...ce/x/13319568/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What is the Isp? What good is ion drive? If you want to get from here to there, you need an energy source sufficient to accelerate/maintain/decelerate some mass. Doesn't matter how you do it, you can't get there on less energy, given current physics. If you're in space with low friction losses, you can use an electric field to accelerate a small mass to high velocity to generate thrust. But you still have to have the energy source to drive it. If you're not in a hurry and are close to a star, no problem. A terrestrial vehicle like a flying car does not sound well suited to ion drive. Just lifting it off the ground with anything resembling thrust is a deal breaker in so many ways. |
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