Dangers of Global Warming

Quadibloc wrote:
On Saturday, October 17, 2015 at 2:41:13 AM UTC-6, Mike Collins wrote:
wrote:

IF you happen to be parked at a charging station.

Or anywhere with an electricity supply.

While one sees people getting away with charging their cell phones all over the
place, people with electric bills to pay might take exception to someone
plugging in their electric car just because there's an outlet handy...

Electricity does cost money, and I would think that an electric car uses a
fairly large amount of it.

John Savard


I was recently considering the purchase of a plug in hybrid with 50km range
which would mean most of my journeys would be electric only. I decided that
on visits to family I would offer them double the price of the electricity
for a charge.
I the end I decided the Golf GTe was still too expensive.
Many European cities are planning restrictions on internal combustion
engines so they must also be planning a big expansion of charging points.

On Sat, 17 Oct 2015 07:18:36 +0200, Paul Schlyter
wrote:

On Fri, 16 Oct 2015 22:03:39 -0600, Chris L Peterson
wrote:
There is no doubt at all that in 10 years electric cars
will be charged as quickly as we now put gas in tanks.

That would require a charging current of hundreds of kiloamperes.
Wouldn't just replacing the discharged batteri with a charged one be
a more reasonable option?

It might be. I'm not speculating on the mechanism. Only pointing out
that it's virtually certain that a mechanism will exist. Whether it's
changing out the battery, or actually using a tank of something in a
fuel cell, or a very high charging current of a hybrid
battery/capacitor... refueling won't be a significant impediment to
electric car operation (indeed, it isn't right now for the way most
cars are used, with their daily range inside what ordinary batteries
can provide).

On Sat, 17 Oct 2015 00:46:44 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
wrote:

Using solar power to produce synthetic fuel from water and the carbon dioxide
in the air, or using truly surplus biomass to make methyl alcohol, are two
rather obvious carbon-neutral alternatives that seem far easier to employ than
perfecting the electric car. I don't think we know what the future of personal
transportation is yet.

I think such a development is extremely likely. But I don't think
we'll see it used with internal combustion engines except during an
interim period. There are just too many advantages to electric cars
over internal combustion. Better control, better performance, better
efficiency.

If we end up with a liquid fuel fleet, I think it will either be used
to power fuel cells, or will be used to power some kind of tiny,
efficient internal combustion (or similar) engine for the purpose of
generating electricity. In any case, the cars will be fundamentally
electric.

(Except for the fuel part, electric cars are already superior to
non-electric, so even if improvement stopped today, there's be no
reason to continue using internal combustion.)

On Sat, 17 Oct 2015 00:50:11 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
wrote:
On Friday, October 16, 2015 at 11:18:40 PM UTC-6, Paul Schlyter
wrote:

Wouldn't just replacing the discharged batteri with a charged one
be
a more reasonable option?

Certainly, but that has its own problems - how do you guard against
motorists
abusing batteries, or being falsely accused of abusing batteries?

I mean, there's a reason all the people on a given block don't
share one
electric lawnmower. And the wastefulness of materials involved
could be dealt
with if people just passed down their lawnmowers through multiple
generations;
then the capital investment would be fully consumed before being
discarded.

The tragedi of the commons...

One alternative would be switching cars when the battery is
exhausted. Some 2+ centuries ago, people did that with horses when
they needed to go for very long rides and didn't have time to let
their horse rest.

On Fri, 16 Oct 2015 22:24:59 -0700 (PDT), palsing
wrote:
On Friday, October 16, 2015 at 10:18:40 PM UTC-7, Paul Schlyter
wrote:
On Fri, 16 Oct 2015 22:03:39 -0600, Chris L Peterson
wrote:
There is no doubt at all that in 10 years electric cars
will be charged as quickly as we now put gas in tanks.

That would require a charging current of hundreds of kiloamperes.
Wouldn't just replacing the discharged batteri with a charged one
be
a more reasonable option?

The batteries in a Tesla, for example, weigh 1200 lb/544 kg ...
good luck exchanging those in just a few minutes...

If the car is constructed with fast battery exchange in mind, it
should be quite easy to do that with suitable machinery.

On 10/17/15 9:09 AM, Paul Schlyter wrote:
On Fri, 16 Oct 2015 22:24:59 -0700 (PDT), palsing
wrote:...

The batteries in a Tesla, for example, weigh 1200 lb/544 kg ...
good luck exchanging those in just a few minutes...

If the car is constructed with fast battery exchange in mind, it should
be quite easy to do that with suitable machinery.

Teslas are so constructed, and a battery swap station is (was?) in
operation on I-5 between SF and LA.
http://www.businessinsider.com/teslas-new-battery-swapping-station-in-a-smelly-place-2014-12

User experience:
https://teslaowner.wordpress.com/2015/07/01/battery-swap/

On Saturday, October 17, 2015 at 8:18:49 AM UTC-6, Chris L Peterson wrote:

If we end up with a liquid fuel fleet, I think it will either be used
to power fuel cells, or will be used to power some kind of tiny,
efficient internal combustion (or similar) engine for the purpose of
generating electricity. In any case, the cars will be fundamentally
electric.

I'll have to admit that the diesel-electric locomotive would be a precedent for
the latter.

John Savard

Chris L Peterson wrote:
On Sat, 17 Oct 2015 00:46:44 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
wrote:

Using solar power to produce synthetic fuel from water and the carbon dioxide
in the air, or using truly surplus biomass to make methyl alcohol, are two
rather obvious carbon-neutral alternatives that seem far easier to employ than
perfecting the electric car. I don't think we know what the future of personal
transportation is yet.

I think such a development is extremely likely. But I don't think
we'll see it used with internal combustion engines except during an
interim period. There are just too many advantages to electric cars
over internal combustion. Better control, better performance, better
efficiency.

If we end up with a liquid fuel fleet, I think it will either be used
to power fuel cells, or will be used to power some kind of tiny,
efficient internal combustion (or similar) engine for the purpose of
generating electricity. In any case, the cars will be fundamentally
electric.

(Except for the fuel part, electric cars are already superior to
non-electric, so even if improvement stopped today, there's be no
reason to continue using internal combustion.)


The hydrogen internal combustion engine is also a possibility. It's not as
efficient as a fuel cell but the trade off is that it's s lot lighter.
The only pollutant would be a little hydrogen peroxide which could easily
be removed.

On Sat, 17 Oct 2015 12:21:44 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
wrote:
On Saturday, October 17, 2015 at 8:18:49 AM UTC-6, Chris L Peterson
wrote:

If we end up with a liquid fuel fleet, I think it will either be
used
to power fuel cells, or will be used to power some kind of tiny,
efficient internal combustion (or similar) engine for the purpose
of
generating electricity. In any case, the cars will be
fundamentally
electric.

I'll have to admit that the diesel-electric locomotive would be a
precedent for
the latter.

And the accumulator electric locomotive would be a precedent for a
purely electric car.

Btw there are, or at least was, accumulator steam locomotives too, as
well as diesel steam locomotives.

On Saturday, October 17, 2015 at 1:43:01 PM UTC-6, Mike Collins wrote:

The hydrogen internal combustion engine is also a possibility. It's not as
efficient as a fuel cell but the trade off is that it's s lot lighter.

Well, the main problem with hydrogen as a fuel is simply that it is very bulky
for its energy content.

John Savard