The Phases

http://astrosnaps.co.uk/Venus-project-dark-x25.jpg

The phase changes of a planet as seen from an outer planet restrict observers,at least in a good way, in how they treat the observed retrogrades displayed by an inner planet.

The Earth's orbital input into that grandstand view we have of the inner planets has to go somewhere hence that is why the Sky and Telescope YouTube graphic is important in that it is the only version I know that sets up the Sun as a central reference for watching Venus and Mercury swing out from behind the Sun to their widest point before swing back in front of the Sun -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdFrE7hWj0A

The line-of-sight observation where the background stars move behind the central Sun in sequence provides the major input for the Earth's orbital motion when dealing with inner planetary retrogrades whereas with the outer planets it is all about relative motion and speeds between the slower moving outer planets and the faster moving inner planet -

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/image/0112/JuSa2000_tezel.gif


The rules here for all planets are that there are perspective changes when observing from an intermediate planet -

1 - Outer planetary retrogrades are a consequence of relative speeds between the faster moving intermediate planet and the slower moving outer planet.

2 - Orbital inputs of the intermediate planet when observing the inner planets are based on the apparent motion of the stars behind the Sun thereby setting up a central reference for inner planetary retrograde resolution.

3 - Phase changes of an inner planet seen from an outer planet play a crucial role in determining the grandstand view of that great spectacle and especially Venus as seen from Earth.

There is no reason whatsoever that the Earth as seen from Mars will likewise see the same phase changes hence the space agency along with everyone else has to adopt the partitioning as outlined above -

http://mars.nasa.gov/allaboutmars/nightsky/retrograde/

There are definite historical reasons why the role of phases has to catch up with retrograde resolution and most of them are contained in this thread.

oriel36 wrote:
http://astrosnaps.co.uk/Venus-project-dark-x25.jpg

The phase changes of a planet as seen from an outer planet restrict
observers,at least in a good way, in how they treat the observed
retrogrades displayed by an inner planet.

The Earth's orbital input into that grandstand view we have of the inner
planets has to go somewhere hence that is why the Sky and Telescope
YouTube graphic is important in that it is the only version I know that
sets up the Sun as a central reference for watching Venus and Mercury
swing out from behind the Sun to their widest point before swing back in front of the Sun -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdFrE7hWj0A

The line-of-sight observation where the background stars move behind the
central Sun in sequence provides the major input for the Earth's orbital
motion when dealing with inner planetary retrogrades whereas with the
outer planets it is all about relative motion and speeds between the
slower moving outer planets and the faster moving inner planet -

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/image/0112/JuSa2000_tezel.gif


The rules here for all planets are that there are perspective changes
when observing from an intermediate planet -

1 - Outer planetary retrogrades are a consequence of relative speeds
between the faster moving intermediate planet and the slower moving outer planet.

2 - Orbital inputs of the intermediate planet when observing the inner
planets are based on the apparent motion of the stars behind the Sun
thereby setting up a central reference for inner planetary retrograde resolution.

3 - Phase changes of an inner planet seen from an outer planet play a
crucial role in determining the grandstand view of that great spectacle
and especially Venus as seen from Earth.

There is no reason whatsoever that the Earth as seen from Mars will
likewise see the same phase changes hence the space agency along with
everyone else has to adopt the partitioning as outlined above -

you have this completely wrong. The phases of Earth seen from Mars will
resemble the phases of Venus seen from Earth.


http://mars.nasa.gov/allaboutmars/nightsky/retrograde/


I you concentrate very hard you will note that the retrograde of Mars seen
from Earth resembles a mirror image of the retrograde of Earth seen from
Mars.
This is what anybody with the ability to visualise will realise.
The main difference is that the Sun has been left out of the Earth from
Mars view to enable the viewer to appreciate the retrograde motion.

On Saturday, November 29, 2014 9:16:29 PM UTC, Mike Collins wrote:
oriel36 wrote:
http://astrosnaps.co.uk/Venus-project-dark-x25.jpg

The phase changes of a planet as seen from an outer planet restrict
observers,at least in a good way, in how they treat the observed
retrogrades displayed by an inner planet.

The Earth's orbital input into that grandstand view we have of the inner
planets has to go somewhere hence that is why the Sky and Telescope
YouTube graphic is important in that it is the only version I know that
sets up the Sun as a central reference for watching Venus and Mercury
swing out from behind the Sun to their widest point before swing back in front of the Sun -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdFrE7hWj0A

The line-of-sight observation where the background stars move behind the
central Sun in sequence provides the major input for the Earth's orbital
motion when dealing with inner planetary retrogrades whereas with the
outer planets it is all about relative motion and speeds between the
slower moving outer planets and the faster moving inner planet -

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/image/0112/JuSa2000_tezel.gif


The rules here for all planets are that there are perspective changes
when observing from an intermediate planet -

1 - Outer planetary retrogrades are a consequence of relative speeds
between the faster moving intermediate planet and the slower moving outer planet.

2 - Orbital inputs of the intermediate planet when observing the inner
planets are based on the apparent motion of the stars behind the Sun
thereby setting up a central reference for inner planetary retrograde resolution.

3 - Phase changes of an inner planet seen from an outer planet play a
crucial role in determining the grandstand view of that great spectacle
and especially Venus as seen from Earth.

There is no reason whatsoever that the Earth as seen from Mars will
likewise see the same phase changes hence the space agency along with
everyone else has to adopt the partitioning as outlined above -

you have this completely wrong. The phases of Earth seen from Mars will
resemble the phases of Venus seen from Earth.


http://mars.nasa.gov/allaboutmars/nightsky/retrograde/


I you concentrate very hard you will note that the retrograde of Mars seen
from Earth resembles a mirror image of the retrograde of Earth seen from
Mars.
This is what anybody with the ability to visualise will realise.
The main difference is that the Sun has been left out of the Earth from
Mars view to enable the viewer to appreciate the retrograde motion.

The rule is that Earth seen from Mars will show a closed retrograde loop with phases along with the increase in size controlling the perspective -

http://www.popastro.com/images/plane...ary%202012.jpg


From widest point to widest point as seen from Earth and where the Sun is between Venus and the Earth,Venus will move against the background stars as it travels behind the Sun whereas it will move in the direction of the background stars from widest point to widest point when moving in front of the Sun hence the interior form of retrograde motion quite separate from the relative motions involved with outer planetary retrogrades and their resolution -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdFrE7hWj0A

You can't inject phases into the JPL graphic which conjectures what the Earth would look like from Mars even though phases are perhaps the easiest way to affirm that a planet orbits the central Sun.

People must be truly desperate despite the fact that contemporary imaging makes proof of orbital motion such a spectacular sight to behold.

oriel36 wrote:
On Saturday, November 29, 2014 9:16:29 PM UTC, Mike Collins wrote:
oriel36 wrote:
http://astrosnaps.co.uk/Venus-project-dark-x25.jpg

The phase changes of a planet as seen from an outer planet restrict
observers,at least in a good way, in how they treat the observed
retrogrades displayed by an inner planet.

The Earth's orbital input into that grandstand view we have of the inner
planets has to go somewhere hence that is why the Sky and Telescope
YouTube graphic is important in that it is the only version I know that
sets up the Sun as a central reference for watching Venus and Mercury
swing out from behind the Sun to their widest point before swing back
in front of the Sun -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdFrE7hWj0A

The line-of-sight observation where the background stars move behind the
central Sun in sequence provides the major input for the Earth's orbital
motion when dealing with inner planetary retrogrades whereas with the
outer planets it is all about relative motion and speeds between the
slower moving outer planets and the faster moving inner planet -

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/image/0112/JuSa2000_tezel.gif


The rules here for all planets are that there are perspective changes
when observing from an intermediate planet -

1 - Outer planetary retrogrades are a consequence of relative speeds
between the faster moving intermediate planet and the slower moving outer planet.

2 - Orbital inputs of the intermediate planet when observing the inner
planets are based on the apparent motion of the stars behind the Sun
thereby setting up a central reference for inner planetary retrograde resolution.

3 - Phase changes of an inner planet seen from an outer planet play a
crucial role in determining the grandstand view of that great spectacle
and especially Venus as seen from Earth.

There is no reason whatsoever that the Earth as seen from Mars will
likewise see the same phase changes hence the space agency along with
everyone else has to adopt the partitioning as outlined above -

you have this completely wrong. The phases of Earth seen from Mars will
resemble the phases of Venus seen from Earth.


http://mars.nasa.gov/allaboutmars/nightsky/retrograde/


I you concentrate very hard you will note that the retrograde of Mars seen
from Earth resembles a mirror image of the retrograde of Earth seen from
Mars.
This is what anybody with the ability to visualise will realise.
The main difference is that the Sun has been left out of the Earth from
Mars view to enable the viewer to appreciate the retrograde motion.

The rule is that Earth seen from Mars will show a closed retrograde loop
with phases along with the increase in size controlling the perspective -

http://www.popastro.com/images/plane...ary%202012.jpg


From widest point to widest point as seen from Earth and where the Sun is
between Venus and the Earth,Venus will move against the background stars
as it travels behind the Sun whereas it will move in the direction of the
background stars from widest point to widest point when moving in front
of the Sun hence the interior form of retrograde motion quite separate
from the relative motions involved with outer planetary retrogrades and their resolution -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdFrE7hWj0A

You can't inject phases into the JPL graphic which conjectures what the
Earth would look like from Mars even though phases are perhaps the
easiest way to affirm that a planet orbits the central Sun.

People must be truly desperate despite the fact that contemporary imaging
makes proof of orbital motion such a spectacular sight to behold.

Of course you can inject phases into the JPL graphic but the point of that
graphic is to show the paths against the background of stars.
I could have put phases into my video of the same event but decided not to
because the phases are not visible without a telescope.

http://youtu.be/BVr0qmiuaZU

On Saturday, November 29, 2014 1:39:31 PM UTC-8, oriel36 wrote:

http://www.popastro.com/images/plane...ary%202012.jpg

People must be truly desperate despite the fact that contemporary imaging makes proof of orbital motion such a spectacular sight to behold.

Gerald, if you really think this is an image, you are dumber than a box of hammers. Just where was this photographer standing in order to get such a shot of Venus BELOW the Sun in his field of view? This is a composite of many images and is not at all accurate, it only shows the phases of Venus WRT the Sun. The retrograde motion that you are so proud of is the motion of Venus WRT the fixed stars, which cannot be seen most of the time in the case of Venus and Mercury because the Sun is in the way!

On Saturday, November 29, 2014 2:39:31 PM UTC-7, oriel36 wrote:

People must be truly desperate despite the fact that contemporary imaging makes proof of orbital motion such a spectacular sight to behold.

We're quite aware that Venus has phases and orbits the Sun. In fact, we can't
even conceive of a case for an alternative to the Copernican system - and this is
thanks to Newton.

John Savard

"Quadibloc" wrote in message
...

On Saturday, November 29, 2014 2:39:31 PM UTC-7, oriel36 wrote:

People must be truly desperate despite the fact that contemporary
imaging makes proof of orbital motion such a spectacular sight to
behold.

We're quite aware that Venus has phases and orbits the Sun. In fact, we
can't
even conceive of a case for an alternative to the Copernican system - and
this is
thanks to Newton.

John Savard

Both Venus and the Sun APPEAR to orbit the Earth, as does the Moon. Since
the Moon has phases the Sun must be the innermost "planet" orbiting the
Earth in the Ptolemaic system, and of course that is consistent with it
appearing to be the the largest. Consequently Mars should have phases too,
but being smaller and further away and without a telescope the ancients
could not detect them. After all, the outer planets DO orbit the Earth even
if it is off centre.
I take it the "we" that cannot conceive such a simple notion is the royal
we, i.e. you.

-- Pastor Ravi Holy of Ghetti Spa
ti

On Sunday, November 30, 2014 12:37:16 AM UTC, palsing wrote:
On Saturday, November 29, 2014 1:39:31 PM UTC-8, oriel36 wrote:

http://www.popastro.com/images/plane...ary%202012.jpg

People must be truly desperate despite the fact that contemporary imaging makes proof of orbital motion such a spectacular sight to behold.

Just where was this photographer standing in order to get such a shot of Venus BELOW the Sun in his field of view?

Even you you my dear Paul this is pretty lame as I just assumed observers here knew that as Venus swings out from the Sun to its widest point and then back in front of the Sun before it is lost in its glare that it is one side of the Sun hence an 'evening planet' so that when it re-emerges ,moves to its widest point and then swings in behind the Sun it is a 'morning planet'. It is nothing to do with daily descriptions of morning/evening but rather orbital positions either side of the Sun.

http://www.popastro.com/images/plane...ary%202012.jpg

Everyone has therefore a grandstand view of the circuit of Venus with the Earth's orbital input minimal to that view whereas the Earth's orbital input is almost total when looking at the outer planets and the resolution of retrogrades.

This is the 21st century yet it is no surprise that you use the term 'below' and even capitalize it but in those sequence of images is proof that a planet makes a circuit of the Sun with its phases representing the orientation of the planet to the Sun, to us and the faster motion of that planet which facilitates that wonderful perspective.









This is a composite of many images and is not at all accurate, it only shows the phases of Venus WRT the Sun. The retrograde motion that you are so proud of is the motion of Venus WRT the fixed stars, which cannot be seen most of the time in the case of Venus and Mercury because the Sun is in the way!

On Saturday, November 29, 2014 10:32:39 PM UTC, Mike Collins wrote:
oriel36 wrote:
On Saturday, November 29, 2014 9:16:29 PM UTC, Mike Collins wrote:
oriel36 wrote:
http://astrosnaps.co.uk/Venus-project-dark-x25.jpg

The phase changes of a planet as seen from an outer planet restrict
observers,at least in a good way, in how they treat the observed
retrogrades displayed by an inner planet.

The Earth's orbital input into that grandstand view we have of the inner
planets has to go somewhere hence that is why the Sky and Telescope
YouTube graphic is important in that it is the only version I know that
sets up the Sun as a central reference for watching Venus and Mercury
swing out from behind the Sun to their widest point before swing back
in front of the Sun -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdFrE7hWj0A

The line-of-sight observation where the background stars move behind the
central Sun in sequence provides the major input for the Earth's orbital
motion when dealing with inner planetary retrogrades whereas with the
outer planets it is all about relative motion and speeds between the
slower moving outer planets and the faster moving inner planet -

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/image/0112/JuSa2000_tezel.gif


The rules here for all planets are that there are perspective changes
when observing from an intermediate planet -

1 - Outer planetary retrogrades are a consequence of relative speeds
between the faster moving intermediate planet and the slower moving outer planet.

2 - Orbital inputs of the intermediate planet when observing the inner
planets are based on the apparent motion of the stars behind the Sun
thereby setting up a central reference for inner planetary retrograde resolution.

3 - Phase changes of an inner planet seen from an outer planet play a
crucial role in determining the grandstand view of that great spectacle
and especially Venus as seen from Earth.

There is no reason whatsoever that the Earth as seen from Mars will
likewise see the same phase changes hence the space agency along with
everyone else has to adopt the partitioning as outlined above -

you have this completely wrong. The phases of Earth seen from Mars will
resemble the phases of Venus seen from Earth.


http://mars.nasa.gov/allaboutmars/nightsky/retrograde/


I you concentrate very hard you will note that the retrograde of Mars seen
from Earth resembles a mirror image of the retrograde of Earth seen from
Mars.
This is what anybody with the ability to visualise will realise.
The main difference is that the Sun has been left out of the Earth from
Mars view to enable the viewer to appreciate the retrograde motion.

The rule is that Earth seen from Mars will show a closed retrograde loop
with phases along with the increase in size controlling the perspective -

http://www.popastro.com/images/plane...ary%202012.jpg


From widest point to widest point as seen from Earth and where the Sun is
between Venus and the Earth,Venus will move against the background stars
as it travels behind the Sun whereas it will move in the direction of the
background stars from widest point to widest point when moving in front
of the Sun hence the interior form of retrograde motion quite separate
from the relative motions involved with outer planetary retrogrades and their resolution -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdFrE7hWj0A

You can't inject phases into the JPL graphic which conjectures what the
Earth would look like from Mars even though phases are perhaps the
easiest way to affirm that a planet orbits the central Sun.

People must be truly desperate despite the fact that contemporary imaging
makes proof of orbital motion such a spectacular sight to behold.

Of course you can inject phases into the JPL graphic but the point of that
graphic is to show the paths against the background of stars.
I could have put phases into my video of the same event but decided not to
because the phases are not visible without a telescope.

http://youtu.be/BVr0qmiuaZU

I wouldn't expect any different from you Collins nor anyone else for that matter however the Earth's orbital input is contained in the YouTube graphic of Venus,Mercury and Jupiter over the course of a month as the background as the apparent motion of the background stars fix the central Sun as a reference thereby allowing the great view of the inner planets,their phases and size increases -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdFrE7hWj0A

The closed loop containing retrogrades generally divides the orbit of Venus from where it moves from its widest point to widest point from our point of view or basically planetary quadrature to quadrature -

http://www.popastro.com/images/plane...ary%202012.jpg

The delicate trick is always to assign the orbital input of the Earth into the view and the Sky and Telescope graphic makes is fairly easy for any observer who is considerate and loves what is going on.

You are aware that I am right but that hardly matters no more than it matters to Bill Owen and his colleagues at JPL. It is quite an experience let me tell you and an altogether unpleasant one at that.

Here's an early Christmas present for you.
Predictive astronomy brought to you by Newton's laws.


http://earthsky.org/space/animation-...-2014-and-2015



Nature and Natures laws lay hid in night.
God said "Let Newton be!" an all was light.
Alexander Pope