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#41
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: "Pete Lynn"
: Why has evolution imbued you with an instinct for exploration if it does : not profit by it? Supposing that "drive to explore" is an adaptive trait, and not just a side-effect of an adaptive trait at best, is sort of like asking "why did you stop kicking that puppy". Seems to me I recall several good examples (presented by Gould I think) where one of the evolutionary "just so" stories about How Humans Got their Spots (or whathaveyou) turns out to be just that; confabulated stories/myths. But sadly, I can't call one to mind just now. Probably some of the social-darwinism pop-sci stuff from a while back. But whether I can remember the specific cases or not, I remain skeptical when people come up with wonderful little explanations of why this or that personality trait is as it is because of evolutionary manifest destiny. But I'm not bitter; no, I'm not bitter. Wayne Throop http://sheol.org/throopw |
#42
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"Greg D. Moore (Strider)" wrote in message
... "Logan Kearsley" wrote in message news:8oyje.1099$Rp1.534@trnddc08... "Jim Davis" wrote in message . 247.90... Logan Kearsley wrote: Give me a method of contributing to the heavy lifting, and I'll do it myself. *Give* you a method? You want to get into space in the worst way, don't you? As in 'inform me of what I can do to help', not 'donate oodles of cash'. Sure. Get a job at a company working to "open the final frontier". Heck, volunteer to update their webpage so they can attract more people with money! Get an aerospace degere so you can do orbital mechanics for them or design their craft. On track to eventually do both. Get a business degree so you can manage their books. ehhh... I think I'll take staying on Earth over being bored out of my skull. (No offense intended to those who do actually find that kind of thing interesting.) Read up on the history of suit design and develop a better one. Done it. Well, the reading up bit, and fiddling around with different designs, anyway; actually completing, prototyping, and testing one is slightly outside of my current capacity. There are some ideas. -l. ------------------------------------ My inbox is a sacred shrine, none shall enter that are not worthy. |
#44
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lclough wrote:
wrote: Do you think the Apollo missions were motivated *solely* by nationalism, to the exclusion of the sense of wonder, exploration, fascination with the unknown, etc.? The -money was invested- solely for other reasons. Partly, yes. Solely, no. Remember Kennedy's speech? It was in reply to the Russians' space achievements to date. If the Russians had spent their money on vodka and suntan lotion in the 50s the United States would not have put one thin dime into NASA. Space exploration still would happen, with or without NASA. Consider: 1) The billions that Americans have spent and continue to spend on science fiction, in part based on their sense of wonder, fascination with the unknown, and desire to adventure; 2) The private space entrepreneurs, such as Burt Rutan, who are driven in large part by adventure-seeking and fascination with the great beyond (in Rutan's words, "it's mostly about fun"). 3) The fact that before NASA, the Soviets were already exploring space. They weren't trying to one-up anyone; they were the *first*. According to many Russians themselves, there was a sense of wonder and desire for scientific advancement involved. And on this one we have some historical proof. Consider the present day: the Chinese are thinking about a moon shot. They announced it. Americans continue debating the guilt of Michael Jackson. Americans are also funding space exploration, both privately and publicly. Why are we not stoking up a major space effort in reply, as we did in the 60s? We are, but not just in reply, but also because people are fascinated. There is a manned Mission to Mars coming up which will cost billions. And we've already been spending billions of space exploration. Did you miss Spirit and Opportunity? I ask again: if people aren't fascinated with the unknown, and willing to invest their money, why do they buy sci-fi and fantasy? Both genres tap into exactly that fascination. Sci-fi and fantasy novels and RPGs tap into this sense of wonder with the unknown. Sure, they represent an escape, but it's an escape into an unknown world for the player to explore. There is typically a great deal of emphasis on exploration and discovery. This is why sci-fi/fantasy worlds are usually so detailed, including histories and maps and so on. That's one reason authors engage in worldbuilding: "if you build it, they will come." They come to explore, because they are fascinated. This all taps into the human fascination with the unknown, and your apparent inability to see this is a mystery in itself. NASA relies partly on popular support, and if people weren't fascinated with the great beyond, that support would be much weaker. It is because space is no longer an arena of competition. Competition is now dirtside, in textile exports, automobiles and software. Space absolutely *is* an arena of competition. What do you call the X-Prize? "From the folks who organized the competition that led to the world's first private human spaceflight now comes the X Prize Cup, planned to be an annual showcase of commercial space ventures, with a debut exhibition slated for October." http://tech.monstersandcritics.com/n...he_X_Prize_Cup The Ansari X-Prize for $10 million (claimed by Burt Rutan et al) is a serious number that represents real competition. I say again: offer one example of major national assets invested in exploration, that do not involve political, religious, or monetary gain. I offered one: Alexander, which is dubious simply because of the thinness of the historical record. National assets typically come from multiple hands, both "public" and "private." As a result, national projects are rarely monocausal. When something is financed on a national scale, you're usually going to have multiple sources of finance. There are as many motivations as the financiers who are involved. Some will be motivated by fascination with the unknown; some by profit motive; some by nationalism or religion, some by a combination of these factors, and so on. Meriwether Lewis was clearly motivated, in part, by a sense of adventure. He left behind his wealthy plantation so he could satisfy his fascination with the unknown. Other members of his entourage had varied motivations, with wonder and adventure prominent among them. They spent time, money, and often blood in pursuit of this adventure. Lewis and gang were far from rare in this regard. I'll say it again: as a sci-fi writer, you should be the last person to discount this fascination with the unknown. It has been and continues to be an *important* motive behind exploration. If everyone simply found the unknown to be deadly dull, space exploration would get far less funding. The masses would have far less interest, and their representatives would be far less likely to appropriate money for space exploration. (And -is- it exploration, when you are going to a place where there are millions of people? Um... if not, then most of the great exploration throughout history has not been exploration. Erikson, Columbus, Lewis, Clark, etc. -- most of the greatest explorers in history -- were not explorers. *Of course* it is exploration. Even if there is native life on Alpha Centauri, the first humans to go there will indeed be explorers. |
#45
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Robert Kolker wrote:
lclough wrote: OTOH, that fact is not exactly unknown now. For a mere $25K or so anybody can sign up for an expedition to the top of Everest. Blind, overweight, handicapped -- it can and has been done. In fact one of the main problems with climbing Everest is bringing the trash down. For a while the place was looking like a garbage dump. Two points: 1 current crop of climbers have life-support equipment, including oxygen tents and breathing apparatus. 2. I concur with you about the mess. I think the expeditions should be required by the local government to pack their trash and bring it away for proper disposal. It is a disgrace. Mt. Everest is looking more like a used oxygen tank display than a Challenge. Eventually the weight of all those oxygen tanks will cause the mountain to collapse. Bob Kolker And I am sure you agree that a place where litter and garbage is a major issue cannot be explored in any real sense of the word. It may be hard to get there, but many many people have done it already. Brenda -- --------- Brenda W. Clough http://www.sff.net/people/Brenda/ Recent short fiction: PARADOX, Autumn 2003 http://home.nyc.rr.com/paradoxmag//index.html Upcoming short fiction in FIRST HEROES (TOR, May '04) http://members.aol.com/wenamun/firstheroes.html |
#46
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Stephen Horgan wrote:
We shall see if the Mars mission survives the political dance required to take it off the drawing board. In general, orbital space is being exploited on the back of real commercial activity in the provision of satellites. If you mean the United States going to Mars, I would not bet on this. A Mars drive will certainly not even begin in the next decade, and probably will not happen in the lifetime of anyone over forty. (My son may live to see it, but I will not.) The US government is currently wallowing in stupendous debt, and faces huge deficits in the not-distant future. To pry Mars money away from the old folks' pensions, the collapsing health-care system and the highway fund, a really cogent and powerful reason will have to be presented. Brenda -- --------- Brenda W. Clough http://www.sff.net/people/Brenda/ Recent short fiction: PARADOX, Autumn 2003 http://home.nyc.rr.com/paradoxmag//index.html Upcoming short fiction in FIRST HEROES (TOR, May '04) http://members.aol.com/wenamun/firstheroes.html |
#47
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#48
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lclough wrote:
future. To pry Mars money away from the old folks' pensions, the collapsing health-care system and the highway fund, a really cogent and powerful reason will have to be presented. There is no such reason. The only way humans are going to get to Mars is if some genius comes up with a cheap and ultracapable propulsion system that is not even in sight in the Think Tanks. What are the odds of that? Bob Kolker |
#49
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lclough wrote:
Stephen Horgan wrote: We shall see if the Mars mission survives the political dance required to take it off the drawing board. In general, orbital space is being exploited on the back of real commercial activity in the provision of satellites. If you mean the United States going to Mars, I would not bet on this. A Mars drive will certainly not even begin in the next decade, and probably will not happen in the lifetime of anyone over forty. (My son may live to see it, but I will not.) The US government is currently wallowing in stupendous debt, and faces huge deficits in the not-distant future. To pry Mars money away from the old folks' pensions, the collapsing health-care system and the highway fund, a really cogent and powerful reason will have to be presented. Surrrrrrrrre. Just as "a really cogent and powerful reason" was required to spend *hundreds of billions* on the newest Iraq War. "Martians hate our freedom." Space exploration will continue, because there is demand for it. People are fascinated with the unknown, like it or not. (You should like it, considering your occupation.) |
#50
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On 21-May-2005, "Paul F. Dietz" wrote: Why has evolution imbued you with an instinct for exploration if it does not profit by it? Because if you can convince yourself that evolution demands it, you don't actually have to provide a real justification. Exploration leads to moving. A species that is spread around is less vulnerable to localized disaster. |
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