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Why so few ATVs ?



 
 
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  #1  
Old October 1st 18, 08:21 PM posted to sci.space.policy
Fred J. McCall[_3_]
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Posts: 10,018
Default Why so few ATVs ?

JF Mezei wrote on Thu, 27 Sep 2018
12:50:46 -0400:

On 2018-09-27 07:03, Jeff Findley wrote:

The US arrangement with Russia is the glaring exception to the rule. It
was first made to keep Russia occupied in space instead of selling
missiles to "rogue nations".


Initially, the USA were guests on the Russian segment, and reliance was
reduced as the USA segment gained ECLSS and eventually a hab module
(kitchen, toilet, berths)


That 'guest' period was quite short and early crews were small. The
original intent was that Zvesda would provide all life support for a
crew of six. The US segment gained life support when Destiny was
added (as I recall it got 'supplementary' life support in one of the
racks because the Russian system kept breaking down). There was no
'hab' module. It was cancelled. Zvesda only has two 'berths'.
Everyone else sleeps by pretty much just hooking their sleeping bags
up any old place in any old module.

Let's look at the dates. The first Expedition (what they call the
crew swaps) launched at the end of October in 2000 on a Soyuz and was
three people; two Russians and an American. At that time, ISS
consisted of Zarya, Unity, Zvezda, and the Z1 Truss. Lots of room in
Unity to hang a bag and sleep. While those first three crew were up,
they added the P6 Truss and solar arrays, Destiny, ESP-1, and the
Canadarm.

From that point on, all trips up and down were via Shuttle until near
the end of 2002. Permanent crew was three and there was a single
Soyuz docked. While Soyuz is supposedly only good for 6 months or so
docked to ISS, I don't see another Soyuz launch until November of
2002, which would leave the Soyuz docked to ISS being there for two
years unless they were tossing and launching empty Soyuz vehicles
every six months.


The Shuttle doing US crew exchanges reduced but did not eliminate the
need for Soyuz. They still needed "escape pod" seats, they owb seat
liners and Sokhol suits and Soyuz training.


The Shuttle did ALL crew exchanges for the first two years or so that
ISS was manned. The first crew of three came up on a Soyuz, but it
was Shuttle all the way from there until November of 2002. I don't
believe we were ever set up to be escaping on Soyuz. I think the
assumption was that if there was an emergency they would be retrieved
by Shuttle. At one point we talked about developing an escape
vehicle, but it, like the hab module, was cancelled.


HGowever, during that period, providing "escape pod service" to
Americans required a Soyuz be empty at the station. But it allowed
Russia to use those seats on the up/down trips (such as space tourists,
and visiting russian astronauts for 2-3 stays)


Except they didn't do that. 'Space tourists' were damned thin on the
ground and I simply don't find it credible that the Russians were
launching empty Soyuz vehicles and then throwing them away empty after
six months or so.


So the end of the Shuttle would have had financial impacts since Russia
could no longer sell those seats for visiting crews.


Not much of an impact, since they didn't sell very many of those
seats.


BUT, the major cost to Russia was when the USA became ready to increase
ISS crew size and needed their own Soyuz as escape pod. (Whether Shuttle
worked or not) so it is normal that the USA would have had to pay Russia
for ecsape pod service at he very least, and pay more when that Soyuz
was used both for transport and escape pod after Shuttle retirement).


Why would you have to pay more for transport? It's still a Soyuz
launched and reentered, regardless of whether it's done full or empty.
According to you, everyone was already being prepped as if they were
going to ride Soyuz whether they ever did or not, so no additional
cost there, either.


So even if Shuttle had not been retired, the USA would have still needed
to pay for extra Soyuz that allowed USA to had its own 3 person crew on
ISS.


I don't believe that's true.


Retirememt of Shuttle increased the costs because Russia
couldn'tuse those seats during up/down trips for visiting
astronauts/tourists.


How did these 'space tourists' escape if they were riding up in the
'US' escape pod? Since those seats in this hypothetical 'escape pod'
would be filled by Americans and the other Soyuz would be filled by
Russians, do you think they would just tell the tourists 'hard cheese'
and abandon them?


Here is a question: Assuming Dragon starts crew shuttle service and
escape pod service in 2019, how "late" is this on an ISS timeline?


That's certainly worded as a question, but I don't understand what
you're asking.


In other words, Was there expectation that the USA would gain escape pod
capability by the time the ISS was ready to get 6 crewmembers? Or was
there knowledge that 6 crew would happen well before US "escape pod"
capability and thus that there would be a need to buy Soyuz for a number
of years between ability of 6 crewmembers and abiulity to have escape
pod capability ?


Those are certainly 'other words', but they don't seem related to your
original words. However, to answer THAT question, ISS crew was three
or less (with the exception of a week or two overlap, when two crews
were present) until 2006 or so. The idea of an ACRV was cancelled in
2002, long before the expansion of the crew beyond three people, and
the Commercial Crew effort was never supposed to deliver anything
until, well, around now.


--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn
  #2  
Old October 2nd 18, 11:27 AM posted to sci.space.policy
Jeff Findley[_6_]
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Posts: 2,307
Default Why so few ATVs ?

In article ,
says...

The Shuttle doing US crew exchanges reduced but did not eliminate the
need for Soyuz. They still needed "escape pod" seats, they owb seat
liners and Sokhol suits and Soyuz training.


The Shuttle did ALL crew exchanges for the first two years or so that
ISS was manned. The first crew of three came up on a Soyuz, but it
was Shuttle all the way from there until November of 2002.


This is true.

I don't
believe we were ever set up to be escaping on Soyuz. I think the
assumption was that if there was an emergency they would be retrieved
by Shuttle. At one point we talked about developing an escape
vehicle, but it, like the hab module, was cancelled.


This is quite simply not true because NASA had to be prepared to
completely evacuate ISS. The shuttle could not be flown on a moment's
notice, so Soyuz always has been and remains to this day the only escape
capsule for ISS for all astronauts and cosmonauts.

When the shuttle was not docked at ISS, ISS had exactly the right number
of Soyuz capsules to completely evacuate ISS. Furthermore, every non-
Russian crewmember was trained in Russia on Soyuz. And more
importantly, every single ISS crewmember had a Soyuz crash couch liner,
which was essential for preventing injuries during the rather rough
Soyuz landing.

Check the shuttle manifests for ISS flights and you'll see Soyuz seat
liners. Here's an article which talks about the swapping of the Soyuz
seat liners, which is the official handing over during a crew swap:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STS-117

From above:

Shortly after welcoming the shuttle crew, station Flight
Engineer Oleg Kotov and shuttle Mission Specialist Clayton
Anderson transferred Anderson's customized Soyuz seat liner
into the Russian spacecraft in place of that of Flight
Engineer Suni Williams. The transfer marked the official
swap of Anderson for Williams as a station crewmember.

Soyuz seat liner swaps happened on every single shuttle flight which
rotated crew on ISS.


The last shuttle flight to ISS was a bit different and included seat
liners for every single US astronaut on that mission. Here's an article
about the last shuttle flight to ISS:

http://www.cbsnews.com/network/news/...s/files/sts135
_mission_preview.html

The US always needed Soyuz. Thankfully, that dependency is coming to an
end in the next couple of years.

Jeff
--
All opinions posted by me on Usenet News are mine, and mine alone.
These posts do not reflect the opinions of my family, friends,
employer, or any organization that I am a member of.
  #3  
Old October 2nd 18, 08:38 PM posted to sci.space.policy
Fred J. McCall[_3_]
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Posts: 10,018
Default Why so few ATVs ?

Jeff Findley wrote on Tue, 2 Oct 2018
06:27:21 -0400:

In article ,
says...

The Shuttle doing US crew exchanges reduced but did not eliminate the
need for Soyuz. They still needed "escape pod" seats, they owb seat
liners and Sokhol suits and Soyuz training.


The Shuttle did ALL crew exchanges for the first two years or so that
ISS was manned. The first crew of three came up on a Soyuz, but it
was Shuttle all the way from there until November of 2002.


This is true.


I don't
believe we were ever set up to be escaping on Soyuz. I think the
assumption was that if there was an emergency they would be retrieved
by Shuttle. At one point we talked about developing an escape
vehicle, but it, like the hab module, was cancelled.


This is quite simply not true because NASA had to be prepared to
completely evacuate ISS. The shuttle could not be flown on a moment's
notice, so Soyuz always has been and remains to this day the only escape
capsule for ISS for all astronauts and cosmonauts.


Well, that's why I used words like "believe" and "think".


When the shuttle was not docked at ISS, ISS had exactly the right number
of Soyuz capsules to completely evacuate ISS. Furthermore, every non-
Russian crewmember was trained in Russia on Soyuz. And more
importantly, every single ISS crewmember had a Soyuz crash couch liner,
which was essential for preventing injuries during the rather rough
Soyuz landing.

Check the shuttle manifests for ISS flights and you'll see Soyuz seat
liners. Here's an article which talks about the swapping of the Soyuz
seat liners, which is the official handing over during a crew swap:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STS-117

From above:

Shortly after welcoming the shuttle crew, station Flight
Engineer Oleg Kotov and shuttle Mission Specialist Clayton
Anderson transferred Anderson's customized Soyuz seat liner
into the Russian spacecraft in place of that of Flight
Engineer Suni Williams. The transfer marked the official
swap of Anderson for Williams as a station crewmember.

Soyuz seat liner swaps happened on every single shuttle flight which
rotated crew on ISS.


And when did they swap out the actual Soyuz? They're 'stale' after 6
months or so. And why did we have to start paying for 'rides up' if a
Soyuz had to be launched for evacuation purposes anyway? It costs the
same to launch one empty and throw it away as it does to launch one
with people in it and use it for crew return.


--
"Millions for defense, but not one cent for tribute."
-- Charles Pinckney
  #4  
Old October 3rd 18, 04:49 AM posted to sci.space.policy
Fred J. McCall[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,018
Default Why so few ATVs ?

JF Mezei wrote on Tue, 2 Oct 2018
17:42:59 -0400:


The Shuttle brought "visiting" crews to ISS who came up on one shuttle
and came back down on the same shuttle.


Wrong.


Russia worked differently. Visiting crews come up on a new Soyuz, leave
it at station and return a week later on the old Soyuz.


Wrong. There is essentially no such thing as 'visiting crews' except
for the couple of tourists over the years. In those cases, the
'tourist' comes up with the new crew (who will stay for roughly six
months) and ride back down with the old crew (who have been there for
roughly six months).


When the new Soyuz docks, there is a ceremony where the seat liners from
one Soyuz and switched with those of the other. So the ISS crew now have
their seat liners in the new Soyuz, and the visiting crew have theirs on
the old Soyuz.

When Visiting crew is done visiting, they return to earth on the old soyuz.


Wrong. There is essentially no such thing as 'visiting crew' the way
you seem to be thinking of it.


And of course, those trips also provide for russian crew rotation when
the Shuttle provided crew rotation for the US segment.


Wrong. The Shuttle usually provided 'crew rotation' for everyone when
it was flying. There was no "US guys fly Shuttle and Russians fly
Soyuz" separation. Examples:

Crew 1 down (2 Russians).
Crew 2-5 up and down (total of 6 Russians).
Crew 6 up (1 Russian)

After a Shuttle hiatus where everyone flew Soyuz, Russians tended to
stay on Soyuz, as did about half of the Americans. The remaining
Americans and various foreign astronauts (Germany, France, Canada,
Japan) flew Shuttle. Belgium and Italy flew their astronauts on
Soyuz. And of course, when Shuttle was out of service, everyone flew
Soyuz.


With the current total reliance on Soyuz, there are a lot less "visiting
crews" since the Soyuz use their seats for crew rotations on both
up/down flilghts. (brings up new crewmember on new Soyuz, and the ISS
crewmembnet whose stay ends will come back down on the old Soyuz (and in
such a case, there is no need to switch the seat liners for that
crewmembe whose liner is already ion the old soyuz).


Hard to have fewer than zero, which is essentially what 'visiting
crews' numbered. Folks who rode Shuttle up and down on the same
Shuttle flight were SHUTTLE crews, not 'visiting ISS crew'. ISS has
life support for around six people. No way to support 'visiting' crew
on ISS itself.


--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn
  #5  
Old October 3rd 18, 11:55 AM posted to sci.space.policy
Jeff Findley[_6_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,307
Default Why so few ATVs ?

In article ,
says...

Jeff Findley wrote on Tue, 2 Oct 2018
06:27:21 -0400:

In article ,
says...

The Shuttle doing US crew exchanges reduced but did not eliminate the
need for Soyuz. They still needed "escape pod" seats, they owb seat
liners and Sokhol suits and Soyuz training.


The Shuttle did ALL crew exchanges for the first two years or so that
ISS was manned. The first crew of three came up on a Soyuz, but it
was Shuttle all the way from there until November of 2002.


This is true.


I don't
believe we were ever set up to be escaping on Soyuz. I think the
assumption was that if there was an emergency they would be retrieved
by Shuttle. At one point we talked about developing an escape
vehicle, but it, like the hab module, was cancelled.


This is quite simply not true because NASA had to be prepared to
completely evacuate ISS. The shuttle could not be flown on a moment's
notice, so Soyuz always has been and remains to this day the only escape
capsule for ISS for all astronauts and cosmonauts.


Well, that's why I used words like "believe" and "think".


Yes you did. But it is standard practice on Usenet News for someone
else to correct you if you're wrong. That way other readers stay
informed.


When the shuttle was not docked at ISS, ISS had exactly the right number
of Soyuz capsules to completely evacuate ISS. Furthermore, every non-
Russian crewmember was trained in Russia on Soyuz. And more
importantly, every single ISS crewmember had a Soyuz crash couch liner,
which was essential for preventing injuries during the rather rough
Soyuz landing.

Check the shuttle manifests for ISS flights and you'll see Soyuz seat
liners. Here's an article which talks about the swapping of the Soyuz
seat liners, which is the official handing over during a crew swap:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STS-117

From above:
Shortly after welcoming the shuttle crew, station Flight
Engineer Oleg Kotov and shuttle Mission Specialist Clayton
Anderson transferred Anderson's customized Soyuz seat liner
into the Russian spacecraft in place of that of Flight
Engineer Suni Williams. The transfer marked the official
swap of Anderson for Williams as a station crewmember.

Soyuz seat liner swaps happened on every single shuttle flight which
rotated crew on ISS.


And when did they swap out the actual Soyuz? They're 'stale' after 6
months or so. And why did we have to start paying for 'rides up' if a
Soyuz had to be launched for evacuation purposes anyway? It costs the
same to launch one empty and throw it away as it does to launch one
with people in it and use it for crew return.


Because it was as much about sending money to Russia as it was about
"spaceflight. Here is a cite:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Soyuz_missions

And as you can see from the above page, US astronaut flights on Soyuz
actually started with shuttle/Mir (Soyuz TM-21 launched on 14 March 1995
with Norm Thagard aboard). US astronauts riding on Soyuz continued with
ISS even when the shuttle was flying. Just look at all those US flags
in the tables! I'm not going to take the time to count them all, but
there are *a lot*.

So yes, we've been paying Russia since the 1990s after the breakup of
the Soviet Union. It started to keep them occupied so they wouldn't
sell missile technology to other countries.

It's been more than two decades now. It's well past time for US
astronaut flights on Soyuz to end.

Jeff
--
All opinions posted by me on Usenet News are mine, and mine alone.
These posts do not reflect the opinions of my family, friends,
employer, or any organization that I am a member of.
  #6  
Old October 3rd 18, 08:52 PM posted to sci.space.policy
Fred J. McCall[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,018
Default Why so few ATVs ?

JF Mezei wrote on Wed, 3 Oct 2018
00:35:42 -0400:

On 2018-10-02 23:49, Fred J. McCall wrote:

Wrong. There is essentially no such thing as 'visiting crews' except
for the couple of tourists over the years.


Based on your logic, replacing the 1 US crewmembers on ISS would have a
Shuttle flight launch with the new crewmember and return with the old
cremember, which means both were fully qualified Shuttle pilots able to
magically operated the shuttle all by themselves.


Utter nonsense!


Shuttle typically carrier 5 to 7 crewmembers.


Yes, it did, and except for those riding up as long term ISS crew they
were SHUTTLE crew.


When doing a 1 person crew
roptation, all othesr would be visiting crewmembers on ISS and help
transfer cargo and do many opther tasks, and in some cases perform EVs
to help install whatever new component the Shuttle had brought along.


They were no more 'visiting crew' than you are visiting staff when you
go to WalMart.


The extra crews stayed for a few days, during which the ISS ECLSS system
was taxed and they would duct air from shuttle through PMA2 into Destiny.


You mean SHUTTLE stayed docked for a few days so they could transfer
cargo.


There were times where the Shuttle switched 2 crewmembers and times they
switched 1 depending on number of americans on board. (and I beleive a
couple of flights replaced all 3 which meant a Russian flew on shuttle).


I gave you a list. All those Shuttle flights for Crew 2-5 replaced
all three, with either one or two Russians per flight.


STS 102 for instance launched with "visiting" crew of
Wetherbee, Kelly, Thomas, Richards.


You mean SHUTTLE crew.


and new ISS crew of Usachev (RU) Viss and Helms
and returned with old ISS crew of Shepherd, Gidzenko and Krikalev.


Two Russians on Shuttle? IMPOSSIBLE. Masterful Mayfly tells me that
they flew Soyuz, not Shuttle.


When missions were shorter than 6 months, then 1 Soyuz could act as
escape pod for 2 missions with full crews exchanged by Shuttle.


Not if they have a 'staleness' date of six months. For what you claim
to work, you'd need two crew cycles that were less than three months
each, which simply never happened.


Then, when the US did crew rotations for americans, it meant that
replacing a soyuz would involve 2 new russian crewmemberts going up with
1 visiting russian who would stay for some time and go back down in the
old soyuz along with the 2 returning crewmembers.

And when there was only 1 russian crewmember rotating (when US had 2
crewmembers), the new Soyuz could launch with 2 visiting russians and
the 1 new crewmember and the old soyuz come back with the 2 visiting
crewmembers and the old ISS crewmember.


Except that doesn't work. Crews tended to alternate majority Russian
with majority American. So, for example, in the days of three person
crews if an oncoming crew had only one Russian (so they could have
your 'two visiting Russians'), the offgoing crew would have two
Russians, which means you would neat a four-seat Soyuz to do what you
claim was being done.



crews' numbered. Folks who rode Shuttle up and down on the same
Shuttle flight were SHUTTLE crews, not 'visiting ISS crew'.


Semantics,


Just like visiting WalMart people are not called 'visiting WalMart
associates' but rather 'customers'.


They were visiting crewmembers while docked to ISS. Had to
get ISS training before launch, and upon docking to ISS, first item was
getting safety briefing by the ISS commander because they were visiting
crewmembers during the Shuttle,s docked stay. Same when Soyuz docked
with some of its crews only staying for a few days and returning on the
old soyuz.


They didn't 'move' seat liners, as you've described. Crews almost
always went down in the same Soyuz they came up on, the crew and the
Soyuz both staying for roughly six months.


--
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
-- Thomas Jefferson
  #7  
Old October 3rd 18, 08:59 PM posted to sci.space.policy
Fred J. McCall[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,018
Default Why so few ATVs ?

Jeff Findley wrote on Wed, 3 Oct 2018
06:55:37 -0400:

In article ,
says...

Jeff Findley wrote on Tue, 2 Oct 2018
06:27:21 -0400:

In article ,
says...

The Shuttle doing US crew exchanges reduced but did not eliminate the
need for Soyuz. They still needed "escape pod" seats, they owb seat
liners and Sokhol suits and Soyuz training.


The Shuttle did ALL crew exchanges for the first two years or so that
ISS was manned. The first crew of three came up on a Soyuz, but it
was Shuttle all the way from there until November of 2002.


This is true.


I don't
believe we were ever set up to be escaping on Soyuz. I think the
assumption was that if there was an emergency they would be retrieved
by Shuttle. At one point we talked about developing an escape
vehicle, but it, like the hab module, was cancelled.


This is quite simply not true because NASA had to be prepared to
completely evacuate ISS. The shuttle could not be flown on a moment's
notice, so Soyuz always has been and remains to this day the only escape
capsule for ISS for all astronauts and cosmonauts.


Well, that's why I used words like "believe" and "think".


Yes you did. But it is standard practice on Usenet News for someone
else to correct you if you're wrong. That way other readers stay
informed.


Yes, it is. Unfortunately, it is also 'standard Usenet practice' to
be a little rude about it, even when 'correcting' something that has
been stated as uncertain.


When the shuttle was not docked at ISS, ISS had exactly the right number
of Soyuz capsules to completely evacuate ISS. Furthermore, every non-
Russian crewmember was trained in Russia on Soyuz. And more
importantly, every single ISS crewmember had a Soyuz crash couch liner,
which was essential for preventing injuries during the rather rough
Soyuz landing.

Check the shuttle manifests for ISS flights and you'll see Soyuz seat
liners. Here's an article which talks about the swapping of the Soyuz
seat liners, which is the official handing over during a crew swap:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STS-117

From above:
Shortly after welcoming the shuttle crew, station Flight
Engineer Oleg Kotov and shuttle Mission Specialist Clayton
Anderson transferred Anderson's customized Soyuz seat liner
into the Russian spacecraft in place of that of Flight
Engineer Suni Williams. The transfer marked the official
swap of Anderson for Williams as a station crewmember.

Soyuz seat liner swaps happened on every single shuttle flight which
rotated crew on ISS.


And when did they swap out the actual Soyuz? They're 'stale' after 6
months or so. And why did we have to start paying for 'rides up' if a
Soyuz had to be launched for evacuation purposes anyway? It costs the
same to launch one empty and throw it away as it does to launch one
with people in it and use it for crew return.


Because it was as much about sending money to Russia as it was about
"spaceflight. Here is a cite:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Soyuz_missions

And as you can see from the above page, US astronaut flights on Soyuz
actually started with shuttle/Mir (Soyuz TM-21 launched on 14 March 1995
with Norm Thagard aboard).


Well, we didn't have a space station then, so what else could we do?


US astronauts riding on Soyuz continued with
ISS even when the shuttle was flying. Just look at all those US flags
in the tables! I'm not going to take the time to count them all, but
there are *a lot*.


Yes, I said that elsewhere.


So yes, we've been paying Russia since the 1990s after the breakup of
the Soviet Union. It started to keep them occupied so they wouldn't
sell missile technology to other countries.


So you keep insisting.


--
"If it's the fool who likes to rush in.
And if it's the angel who never does try.
And if it's me who will lose or win
Then I'll make my best guess and I won't care why.
Come on and get me, you twist of fate.
I'm standing right here, Mr Destiny.
If you want to talk, well then I'll relate.
If you don't, so what? 'Cuz you don't scare me.
-- "Gunfighter", Blues Traveler
  #8  
Old October 4th 18, 05:20 AM posted to sci.space.policy
Fred J. McCall[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,018
Default Why so few ATVs ?

JF Mezei wrote on Wed, 3 Oct 2018
18:50:08 -0400:

On 2018-10-03 15:52, Fred J. McCall wrote:

Yes, it did, and except for those riding up as long term ISS crew they
were SHUTTLE crew.


The crew consists of the commander and pilot. The rest are passengers
with various titles such as mission specialists of payload specialists.


Yes and no. Mission Specialists and Payload Specialists have jobs to
perform on the Shuttle. That makes them 'crew'.


ISS crews going up for their mission or those retuirning form their ISS
mission would have eithe mission specialist or payload specialist during
their trip on the shuttle.


Why?


There were formal ceremonies on ISS for crew changes. For instance, when
commander changes from person 1 to person 2 (and this is important
because after that minute, in case of emergency, it is the new guy that
has authority).

Also, that handover also matched the changing of seat liners on the
Soyuz. The old commander for instance would remove his seat liner, new
commander would put his in. From that point, in case of emergency, the
old commander had to go to the shuttle to evac, and the new commander
went to the Soyuz.

From the time of handover, the former ISS crewmember becomes a visiting
crewmeber who is attached to the Shuttle while the new guy who went up
on Shuttle bcomes ISS crewmember and no longer attached to the Shuttle.


Since Soyuz is only good for six months, wouldn't they be just
jettisoning the old Soyuz and getting a new one?


I gave you a list. All those Shuttle flights for Crew 2-5 replaced
all three, with either one or two Russians per flight.


Two Russians on Shuttle? IMPOSSIBLE. Masterful Mayfly tells me that
they flew Soyuz, not Shuttle.


You contradict yourself.


No, I'm pointing out that YOU have contradicted yourself. You
insisted that Americans traveled on Shuttle and Russians traveled on
Soyuz. I told you that was bull****.


STS 103 for instance came back with Shepherd, Krikalev and Gidzenko.


Yes, demonstrating your original claim about Shuttle carrying
Americans while Russians traveled on Soyuz was bull****.

Not if they have a 'staleness' date of six months. For what you claim
to work, you'd need two crew cycles that were less than three months
each, which simply never happened.


Initial ISS missions were 3 months or less. There was a test of 6 months
for 1 crewmember and then when Columbia happened, the ISS crew stayed on
board for longer while Russians re-arranged Soyuz schedules to take over
crew rotation during Shuttle standdown.


Wrong.

Crew 1 - 5 months
Crew 2 - just short of 6 months
Crew 3 - 4 months
Crew 4 - over 6 months
Crew 5 - 6 months
Crew 6 - just over 5 months

Columbia happened while Crew 6 was up. They rode up on Shuttle and
returned on Soyuz. Now, just which of those crews were you talking
about being 3 months or less, because in my number system all those
are significantly longer than 3 months?

Except that doesn't work. Crews tended to alternate majority Russian
with majority American.


You could have one american going up on Soyuz along with the 2 russians.
And thsi is where barter may have worked with US doing some crew
transport on Shuttle and Russians doing others on Soyuz. But after
Columbia's standwon, I think all tings changed.


Practically all crew transfer was done on Shuttle until Columbia
happened. I listed that for you once. Do I need to do it again?

Crew 1 went up on Soyuz. From then until Columbia, ALL CREW went up
and down on Shuttle. Columbia happened while Crew 6 was up. They
went up on Shuttle and down on Soyuz. You've got it just backwards.
It was pretty much all Shuttle until Columbia happened. While Shuttle
wasn't flying, everyone flew Soyuz. Once that stand down was over,
something like half or more of Americans were still flying Soyuz with
the remainder on Shuttle and Russians pretty much flew Soyuz. ISS
crews dropped to two people.

Shuttle started flying again while Crew 13 was up, bringing up a
German astronaut and expanding the crew from 2 to 3.


There were also as I recall a few flights where 1 russian went up and
brought back 2 others. or 2 going up and coming back with 3.


I already explained that to you. 'Majority' crew alternated between
Russia and the US, so when crews were three you would get 1 Russian up
with 2 Americans and 2 down with 1 American or vice versa. When crews
went up to 5, you would get 2 Russians up and 3 down or vice versa.


They didn't 'move' seat liners, as you've described. Crews almost
always went down in the same Soyuz they came up on,


ISS crews almost never went down on same Soyuz. And yes, seat liners
were changes and this was a very important portion of crew changes at
the ISS because it dictates where everyone goes in the evant of the need
to evacuate.


Bull****. Crews that came up on Soyuz almost always went down on the
same Soyuz 6 months later. Why would they not? The Soyuz they came
up on would be the 'old' Soyuz when they were ready to go back down.


And with crew exchanges done by Shuttle when the Soyuz was only 3 months
old, there was seat liner exchanged (as mentioned before).


When the hell do you think that happened? During those imaginary 3
month crew exchanges that never happened?


--
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
-- Thomas Jefferson
 




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