Chapeau! @ H. Paul Shuch!

Chapeau! @ H. Paul Shuch!
http://www.setileague.org/editor/boldstep.htm

Paul, I agree with you! ;-)
http://setiweb.ssl.berkeley.edu/foru...ad.php?id=7079


Dark & clear skies!


Bruno Moretti IK2WQA

SETI ITALIA Team G. Cocconi
http://www.geocities.com/priapus_dionysos/bsih.html
RadioAstronomia UAI http://radioastronomia.uai.it/
IARA http://www.iaragroup.org/

Cicognola Astronomical Observatory & IK2WQA Radio Station
45°43'28"N 8°36'35"E QTH Locator: JN45HR

"SETI ITALIA Bruno IK2WQA" wrote:

Chapeau! @ H. Paul Shuch!
http://www.setileague.org/editor/boldstep.htm

Perhaps Shuch should consider resigning instead of letting his
jealousy get the better of him and posting rants against the SETI
Institute. After all, if he can't raise the piddling $20,000 needed
for the VSA, what does that tell you about his leadership abilities?

For the record, I attended a League meeting some years back at
Jodrell Bank. Some of the members might consider investing in a
shower and some smart clothes. Like it or not you are judged based
on your appearance. Scientific studies have shown that people get
their message out much more effectively if they have a good appearance.

A couple of the guys had a pony tail. What are you a woman? Cut the
damn horse tail off. All men should have their hair neatly trimmed and
above their shirt collar (your shirt does have a collar I hope). If you
have a beard consider shaving it off or at least keep it neatly trimmed.
You are not ZZ Top. Most men look bad with beards. How do you think
people respond to someone who stinks to high heaven? Take a shower.

Here's some advice for SETI League members for public outreach:

First shower, most do but I know of a few who don't. Brush your teeth.
Make sure your hair is trimmed and styled neatly. Be sure to shave.
A rough face looks bad. I would stress some nice casual pants. Jeans
are fine just as long as they are well cut, clean and not faded. In warmer
months nice shorts are fine but remember you must have nice legs to
go along with the shorts. Don't wear those knee high black socks with
shorts either. You should wear nice button down shirt, polo, oxford, or
a nice sweater. I would recommend nice casual shoes. Tennis shoes
are fine just as long as they are clean. No Velcro you nerds! Be sure
your wardrobe is up to date. This isn't the 80's anymore.

You may not like that fact that you are judged on your appearance but
the fact is that you are. So dress nicely and have the best appearance
you can have. Your message on amateur SETI and the wonders of the
universe will be much better received if you don't look like a worthless
bum or hippie. Remember dress your best and put on a smile.

Hello Bruno,

I respectfully disagree with a few of the premises of Dr. Shuch.
He says:

"...The whole argument for privatized SETI hinges on the proposition
that individuals can do science better, and cheaper, than governments
-- that by dispensing with bureaucracy, we can apply more of our
limited resources to science, and less to overhead."

Perhaps his "argument for privatized SETI" does not reflect reality.
Perhaps it's private because it was THE ONLY WAY it could get done.
Also, from what I've read about some other not-for-profit
organizations, some of them appear to have never been more efficient
than a government. An organization's being private doesn't necessarily
make it efficient, especially if it isn't trying to make a profit.

Dr. Shuch continues,
"...That philosophy served the SETI Institute (and, dare I say, The
SETI League?) rather well for the past decade. But now, privatized SETI
has finally exceeded the budget of our Government-funded forebears. And
we started off so well! Where, exactly, did we go wrong?..."

I don't think that this philosophy has been codified as a permanent
operating parameter/mission statement of the SETI Institute. Also, it
seems that he compares the two organizations as equals; I don't see
them this way. The SETI League's growth and goal attainment has
(seemingly from this outsider's point of view) been static for years,
while the SETI Inst. seems to be attaining its goals (Phoenix has been
completed, it has established perhaps the most effective private
astrobiology science research entity, and it seems to effectively
conduct public educational outreach consistent with its tax status).
Perhaps the SETI League needs a better public relations person to get
their mission statement message or their fund-raising message out, or
perhaps they need a change of management?

Dr. Shuch also says
"...Perhaps it's that we're trying to do too much. After all, when NASA
SETI was cancelled, the SETI Institute chose one specific prong -- the
targeted search - to resurrect under the Project Phoenix banner. And
they were doing so on a fraction of what NASA was spending. So,
logically, The SETI League chose to resurrect the other half of NASA
SETI, the all-sky survey, on an even smaller fraction. Privatized SETI
seemed to make sense then."

There's that WE thing again. Is the SETI League trying to do too much?
Did the SETI League get overwhelmed by trying to incorporate a
world-class cadre of research scientists? Perhaps the Dr. is thinking
too small? Don't drag others down Dr. Shuch, instead set high goals
and strive to achieve them.

The Dr. then says,
"...It still does, if we don't let ourselves be drawn too far afield.
But now the very SETI scientists whose talents and dedication have long
inspired us are branching out. They are, as mentioned in that same
article, "probing the chemical pathways critical to life on early Earth
and Mars, exploring the molecular traces microbial life might leave on
the icy surface of Europa, and seeking novel biosignatures... measuring
the 92-cm line of deuterium... measuring dark matter in dwarf
galaxies... transitions of heavy molecules in the interstellar gas."
And, they are now hard at work building The World's Greatest Radio
Telescope. No wonder they need $62 million!..."

Perhaps the Dr. will want to withhold his donation to them? Also, the
scientific staff at the SETI Institute is diverse and I don't think it
is stealing people-resources from other lines of investigation (i.e. I
don't think the radio-astronomers are doing Mars astrobiology science.)
Also, who can say whether or not these different lines of scientific
investigation will benefit SETI or not? Certainly some of them help us
to decide future scientific/investigative paths of looking for life in
the universe.

Even I myself at one time had an introverted gripe about the "Are We
Alone?" radio show (sponsored by the SETI Institute) covering seemingly
every topic under the Sun; look at a few of these show titles:

Skeptical Sunday: The Heat Is Really On --Countering Doubts About
Global Warming
Halfpint Hominids: The Science of Island Biogeography
The Ultimate Genetic Code Book
Skeptical Sunday. Bigfoot: Big Hoax?
Skeptical Sunday: Lost in the Lost City of Atlantis
The Day After Tomorrow: Wrong Planet
Skeptical Sunday: The Shroud of Turin: Holy Relic or Wholly Hoax?
Why Sedna? The Celestial Name Game
Testing Einstein: Will the Theory of Relativity Pass?
Skeptical Sunday: When You Wish Upon a Star... Nothing Happens! The
Truth About Astrology
Dark Energy and Superman: The Latest from the AAAS
Dino Demise: What Really Did Them In?
Skeptical Sunday: When Seeing is Disbelieving
Skeptical Sunday: The Darwin Conspiracy
Skeptical Sunday: Investigating paranormal claims

After awhile I got over my personal gripe over this seeming waste of
resources and rationalized (perhaps irrationally?) that you probably
can't run a real radio show (or a for-profit radio station) for long if
your show has just one subject, so I chalked it up to somebody over
there seeing an opportunity to defend science from the ignorant
primative hoardes in an entertaining fashion (since they had to do
something about their format anyway?) The point being, perhaps we are
not aware of all of the intricacies of the fundraising that they do,
what contingent strings are attached to the things they do, and the WHY
of what they do; things are perhaps not as simple as they may appear.

Dr. Shuch also said
"...And what aren't they doing? At the moment, they aren't doing any
microwave SETI observations. Pity. I thought that's what they were all
about. Perhaps I was wrong."

This is such a cheap-shot, it doesn't qualify for a response (but I'll
give one anyway :^) Dr. Shuch is well-aware that "At the moment" the
SETI Institute is bringing the Allen Array online with an initial 35
dishes. He is also aware of the technical challenges and their
long-term goals for this array. He should also know that key
researchers for this instrument have scientific affiliations that make
this instrument a testbed for SKA (another potential source of funds?),
and that the location of the array is on university-owned property
(does he think this comes free? or that it is free of any other
scientific commitments/strings, especially with the value of this
instrument to the scientific community at large? There is a mutual
benefit for all who contribute money, real estate, and university (and
therefore government) resources to the project.) They have their plate
full, and shortly they will be doing more targeted "microwave SETI
observations" than has EVER been done by all SETI projects combined!

snip, more from Dr. Shuch
"...So, what would I urge our colleagues in California to do? Redouble
their true SETI efforts..."

As if there is one true path to SETI nirvana, and as if they haven't
been busting their buns on Phoenix and the Allen array all this time.

"..., even if at the expense of some other worthy projects. Let others
do the continuum radio astronomy, or the life-in-the-universe studies,
or the school curricula, or the searches for organic molecules, or the
studies of fossilized bacteria. Maybe even let others build The World's
Greatest Radio Telescope, and then go to them and rent time on it. In
other words, become a lean and efficient SETI Institute once again, not
an Astrobiology Institute. NASA already has one of those, and it costs
- millions. I would be the first Team SETI member to raise a glass in
salute of a refocused effort, once more emphasizing observational
SETI."

This is reminiscent of the argument "Why spend money on space when we
can use it here on Earth to feed the hungry?" With all due respect Dr.
Shuch (besides your honest admission of jealousy in that article)
perhaps they are building the world's greatest radio telescope because
they have been eating the table scraps of others for so long. Also,
I think you are under the mistaken impression that the astrobiology
money is coming from private money. I believe that a substantial
proportion of that astrobilogy research money is coming from Uncle Sam
(that piece wasn't prohibited by congress, and now they can even get
direct SETI money again from the NSF or other agencies if they wanted
to (if they aren't already), which is perhaps why they are approaching
things the way they are. They are thinking big (but certainly they
also remember when they were small, and I'd guess that most, if not all
of them, couldn't afford Ferrari's either :^)
Keep searching (this term also works for fundraising), Jason H.

Hello Jason :-)
I agree with you. I have been disappointed with the SETI League for
sometime. I'm still a member, but I sort of drifted away from the SETI
League years ago (shortly after they went to their closed forums I think).

I think the SETI Institute with their plans for the future offers more
hope than the SETI League!

The SETI Institute's TeamSETI is good, but what I want (wanted to do for
so long!!) is actually build a small (but excellent) microwave band
observation system of the sky. I have hopes (still to be accomplished!)
of learning all the in's and out's of doing that (design, engineering,
construction, calibration, and learning about radio astronomy, ...) from
the SETI League so I haven't given up with them yet. If one is
interested in building something for SETI (an amateur radio astronomy
system) then probably the SETI League offers the best hope (so far).

That Dr Shuch seems to complain is disappointing to me ...
Al


Jason H. wrote:
Hello Bruno,

I respectfully disagree with a few of the premises of Dr. Shuch.
He says:

"...The whole argument for privatized SETI hinges on the proposition
that individuals can do science better, and cheaper, than governments
-- that by dispensing with bureaucracy, we can apply more of our
limited resources to science, and less to overhead."

Perhaps his "argument for privatized SETI" does not reflect reality.
Perhaps it's private because it was THE ONLY WAY it could get done.
Also, from what I've read about some other not-for-profit
organizations, some of them appear to have never been more efficient
than a government. An organization's being private doesn't necessarily
make it efficient, especially if it isn't trying to make a profit.

Dr. Shuch continues,
"...That philosophy served the SETI Institute (and, dare I say, The
SETI League?) rather well for the past decade. But now, privatized SETI
has finally exceeded the budget of our Government-funded forebears. And
we started off so well! Where, exactly, did we go wrong?..."

I don't think that this philosophy has been codified as a permanent
operating parameter/mission statement of the SETI Institute. Also, it
seems that he compares the two organizations as equals; I don't see
them this way. The SETI League's growth and goal attainment has
(seemingly from this outsider's point of view) been static for years,
while the SETI Inst. seems to be attaining its goals (Phoenix has been
completed, it has established perhaps the most effective private
astrobiology science research entity, and it seems to effectively
conduct public educational outreach consistent with its tax status).
Perhaps the SETI League needs a better public relations person to get
their mission statement message or their fund-raising message out, or
perhaps they need a change of management?

Dr. Shuch also says
"...Perhaps it's that we're trying to do too much. After all, when NASA
SETI was cancelled, the SETI Institute chose one specific prong -- the
targeted search - to resurrect under the Project Phoenix banner. And
they were doing so on a fraction of what NASA was spending. So,
logically, The SETI League chose to resurrect the other half of NASA
SETI, the all-sky survey, on an even smaller fraction. Privatized SETI
seemed to make sense then."

There's that WE thing again. Is the SETI League trying to do too much?
Did the SETI League get overwhelmed by trying to incorporate a
world-class cadre of research scientists? Perhaps the Dr. is thinking
too small? Don't drag others down Dr. Shuch, instead set high goals
and strive to achieve them.

The Dr. then says,
"...It still does, if we don't let ourselves be drawn too far afield.
But now the very SETI scientists whose talents and dedication have long
inspired us are branching out. They are, as mentioned in that same
article, "probing the chemical pathways critical to life on early Earth
and Mars, exploring the molecular traces microbial life might leave on
the icy surface of Europa, and seeking novel biosignatures... measuring
the 92-cm line of deuterium... measuring dark matter in dwarf
galaxies... transitions of heavy molecules in the interstellar gas."
And, they are now hard at work building The World's Greatest Radio
Telescope. No wonder they need $62 million!..."

Perhaps the Dr. will want to withhold his donation to them? Also, the
scientific staff at the SETI Institute is diverse and I don't think it
is stealing people-resources from other lines of investigation (i.e. I
don't think the radio-astronomers are doing Mars astrobiology science.)
Also, who can say whether or not these different lines of scientific
investigation will benefit SETI or not? Certainly some of them help us
to decide future scientific/investigative paths of looking for life in
the universe.

Even I myself at one time had an introverted gripe about the "Are We
Alone?" radio show (sponsored by the SETI Institute) covering seemingly
every topic under the Sun; look at a few of these show titles:

Skeptical Sunday: The Heat Is Really On --Countering Doubts About
Global Warming
Halfpint Hominids: The Science of Island Biogeography
The Ultimate Genetic Code Book
Skeptical Sunday. Bigfoot: Big Hoax?
Skeptical Sunday: Lost in the Lost City of Atlantis
The Day After Tomorrow: Wrong Planet
Skeptical Sunday: The Shroud of Turin: Holy Relic or Wholly Hoax?
Why Sedna? The Celestial Name Game
Testing Einstein: Will the Theory of Relativity Pass?
Skeptical Sunday: When You Wish Upon a Star... Nothing Happens! The
Truth About Astrology
Dark Energy and Superman: The Latest from the AAAS
Dino Demise: What Really Did Them In?
Skeptical Sunday: When Seeing is Disbelieving
Skeptical Sunday: The Darwin Conspiracy
Skeptical Sunday: Investigating paranormal claims

After awhile I got over my personal gripe over this seeming waste of
resources and rationalized (perhaps irrationally?) that you probably
can't run a real radio show (or a for-profit radio station) for long if
your show has just one subject, so I chalked it up to somebody over
there seeing an opportunity to defend science from the ignorant
primative hoardes in an entertaining fashion (since they had to do
something about their format anyway?) The point being, perhaps we are
not aware of all of the intricacies of the fundraising that they do,
what contingent strings are attached to the things they do, and the WHY
of what they do; things are perhaps not as simple as they may appear.

Dr. Shuch also said
"...And what aren't they doing? At the moment, they aren't doing any
microwave SETI observations. Pity. I thought that's what they were all
about. Perhaps I was wrong."

This is such a cheap-shot, it doesn't qualify for a response (but I'll
give one anyway :^) Dr. Shuch is well-aware that "At the moment" the
SETI Institute is bringing the Allen Array online with an initial 35
dishes. He is also aware of the technical challenges and their
long-term goals for this array. He should also know that key
researchers for this instrument have scientific affiliations that make
this instrument a testbed for SKA (another potential source of funds?),
and that the location of the array is on university-owned property
(does he think this comes free? or that it is free of any other
scientific commitments/strings, especially with the value of this
instrument to the scientific community at large? There is a mutual
benefit for all who contribute money, real estate, and university (and
therefore government) resources to the project.) They have their plate
full, and shortly they will be doing more targeted "microwave SETI
observations" than has EVER been done by all SETI projects combined!

snip, more from Dr. Shuch
"...So, what would I urge our colleagues in California to do? Redouble
their true SETI efforts..."

As if there is one true path to SETI nirvana, and as if they haven't
been busting their buns on Phoenix and the Allen array all this time.

"..., even if at the expense of some other worthy projects. Let others
do the continuum radio astronomy, or the life-in-the-universe studies,
or the school curricula, or the searches for organic molecules, or the
studies of fossilized bacteria. Maybe even let others build The World's
Greatest Radio Telescope, and then go to them and rent time on it. In
other words, become a lean and efficient SETI Institute once again, not
an Astrobiology Institute. NASA already has one of those, and it costs
- millions. I would be the first Team SETI member to raise a glass in
salute of a refocused effort, once more emphasizing observational
SETI."

This is reminiscent of the argument "Why spend money on space when we
can use it here on Earth to feed the hungry?" With all due respect Dr.
Shuch (besides your honest admission of jealousy in that article)
perhaps they are building the world's greatest radio telescope because
they have been eating the table scraps of others for so long. Also,
I think you are under the mistaken impression that the astrobiology
money is coming from private money. I believe that a substantial
proportion of that astrobilogy research money is coming from Uncle Sam
(that piece wasn't prohibited by congress, and now they can even get
direct SETI money again from the NSF or other agencies if they wanted
to (if they aren't already), which is perhaps why they are approaching
things the way they are. They are thinking big (but certainly they
also remember when they were small, and I'd guess that most, if not all
of them, couldn't afford Ferrari's either :^)
Keep searching (this term also works for fundraising), Jason H.

SETI ITALIA Bruno IK2WQA wrote:
Chapeau! @ H. Paul Shuch!
http://www.setileague.org/editor/boldstep.htm

Paul, I agree with you! ;-)
http://setiweb.ssl.berkeley.edu/foru...ad.php?id=7079


Dark & clear skies!


Bruno Moretti IK2WQA

SETI ITALIA Team G. Cocconi
http://www.geocities.com/priapus_dionysos/bsih.html
RadioAstronomia UAI http://radioastronomia.uai.it/
IARA http://www.iaragroup.org/

Cicognola Astronomical Observatory & IK2WQA Radio Station
45°43'28"N 8°36'35"E QTH Locator: JN45HR

I would like to know, before I condemn the attempt to raise $US 62 x 10
exp6, how much of this is for capital expenses; for items which are
expected to last for many years as opposed to current expenses; items
which have short life-times? I would expect the capital budget to be
relatively large and I would not be too concerned about it.
And before comparing it to the 1992 NASA budget, I would like to know
how much the 1992 NASA budget was as adjusted for inflation. Maybe
62,000,000 is not that much in today's devalued dollars.