UPDATE to "Discovery on Mars" ...see this !!

"G=EMC^2 Glazier" wrote in message
...
BV You think thicker atmosphere in the Mars ancient history. I say
thinner atmosphere in its history. I can give an answer that is good
science. "IMars had less mass in the past" What is your answer for it
having a denser atmosphere in the past. Bert PS always best to think in
both directions

Bert, I am more what-if'ing then anything else. I do not have data that
suggest Mars had a thicker atmosphere I am just supposing...what if it did?
If the atmosphere was at some point very dense, maybe water could have
existed? A super dense CO2 atmosphere could possibly have held enough heat
in that liquid water could have flowed.

BV.

BV Venus has a super dense CO^2 atmosphere and it does not have a trace
of water. What you are looking for is an atmosphere that weighs close to
14 lb at Mars surface. "once upon a time" Bert

"G=EMC^2 Glazier" wrote in message
...
BV Venus has a super dense CO^2 atmosphere and it does not have a trace
of water. What you are looking for is an atmosphere that weighs close to
14 lb at Mars surface. "once upon a time" Bert

It doesn't now, but evidence suggests it may have in the past.

http://gsa.confex.com/gsa/2001AM/fin...ract_23016.htm
http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/01/25/venus.water/

I am just what-if'ing that water could have flowed on Mars. That's all.

BV.

BV wrote:

Bert, I am more what-if'ing then anything else. I do not have data that
suggest Mars had a thicker atmosphere I am just supposing...what if it did?
If the atmosphere was at some point very dense, maybe water could have
existed? A super dense CO2 atmosphere could possibly have held enough heat
in that liquid water could have flowed.

Bert can't pull himself to a library or purchase the books he needs. Bert
will not even read them or consult recommended sources on the Internet with
the needed information. Bert either cannot understand or is not interested in
the facts, and those that he seems to know about he still gets scrambled up in
his mind. Despite the efforts of others, his situation does not seem to
change (which is why I killfiled him).
A super dense atmosphere is not absolutely required for liquid water to
flow at least for a brief period (although it does help to have one in place).
Clearly, the water erosion features of the Martian outflow channels indicate
that massive flows of water once surged out over the surface of Mars, at least
briefly. The current data from the Opportunity rover has shown that water did
play a major role in forming some of those rocks, and water has been
demonstrated to exist in various places on Mars (Bert ignores these facts). A
tremendously massive (but fairly brief) outbreak of water (triggered by an
impact or tectonic shifts) could have been possible even in an atmosphere not
greatly different from that which exists on Mars today. The flow would
eventually freeze, percolate into the ground, or evaporate, but it could exist
for just long enough to cut those channels, which estimates indicate could
have been cut in less than a few weeks. Clear skies to you.
--
David W. Knisely
Prairie Astronomy Club: http://www.prairieastronomyclub.org
Hyde Memorial Observatory: http://www.hydeobservatory.info/

**********************************************
* Attend the 11th Annual NEBRASKA STAR PARTY *
* July 18-23, 2004, Merritt Reservoir *
* http://www.NebraskaStarParty.org *
**********************************************

"David Knisely" wrote in message
...
BV wrote:
snip
The flow would
eventually freeze, percolate into the ground, or evaporate, but it could
exist
for just long enough to cut those channels, which estimates indicate could
have been cut in less than a few weeks. Clear skies to you.
snip

David,

I may be confusing facts here, so bear with me. How long do the experts
believe water was on the planet? Surely longer then weeks, right? Otherwise
why look for life?

BV.

BV posted:

I may be confusing facts here, so bear with me. How long do the experts
believe water was on the planet? Surely longer then weeks, right? Otherwise
why look for life?

Water has existed for billions of years on Mars (mostly in the form of ice)
and there are some indications that liquid water may have also existed on Mars
for an extended period (water sediment "marks" in some canyons, possible
strand lines, ect.). However, this evidence for standing liquid water in
large quantities is less conclusive than the evidence of sudden and rapidly
flowing surges of water which carved the outflow channels. There are other
water-associated features on Mars which appear to date back to early in the
history of the planet, but the outflow channels seem to be somewhat more
recent. The fact that there is water at all on Mars is enough to consider
looking for life on the planet. Whether there is or was life is an open
question, but the fact that the Opportunity data indicates water-soaked rocks
is somewhat promising. My personal opinion is that, under the current harsh
conditions there probably is no life on the surface of Mars (I may be wrong
about this however, so we do need to continue the search). Clear skies to
you.
--
David W. Knisely
Prairie Astronomy Club: http://www.prairieastronomyclub.org
Hyde Memorial Observatory: http://www.hydeobservatory.info/

**********************************************
* Attend the 11th Annual NEBRASKA STAR PARTY *
* July 18-23, 2004, Merritt Reservoir *
* http://www.NebraskaStarParty.org *
**********************************************

"David Knisely" wrote in message
...
BV posted:

I may be confusing facts here, so bear with me. How long do the experts
believe water was on the planet? Surely longer then weeks, right?
Otherwise
why look for life?

Water has existed for billions of years on Mars (mostly in the form of
ice)
and there are some indications that liquid water may have also existed on
Mars
for an extended period (water sediment "marks" in some canyons, possible
strand lines, ect.). However, this evidence for standing liquid water in
large quantities is less conclusive than the evidence of sudden and
rapidly
flowing surges of water which carved the outflow channels. There are
other
water-associated features on Mars which appear to date back to early in
the
history of the planet, but the outflow channels seem to be somewhat more
recent. The fact that there is water at all on Mars is enough to consider
looking for life on the planet. Whether there is or was life is an open
question, but the fact that the Opportunity data indicates water-soaked
rocks
is somewhat promising. My personal opinion is that, under the current
harsh
conditions there probably is no life on the surface of Mars (I may be
wrong
about this however, so we do need to continue the search). Clear skies to
you.

I understand the theories of "there once was flowing water" and how that
leads to "there might have been life". I guess my mind was automatically
making the jump to "mars used to look like earth" which I realize now is not
a valid assumption. There could have been flowing water, and life without
the spacies skies and amber waves of grain.

Thanks for the explanation. As always clear, concise and to the point. I
appreciate that.

BV.

David David David Why would anyone want tp kill file me? I don't have
to go to a book to check out my side of a discussion.(or to think what I
should post) Let me say I heard on CNN that the rovers have found
running water on Mars about 4 billion years ago.(yes). I also read in a
BOOK that the sun reached its maturity about 300 million years ago.,and
it now is 20% hotter. However to help your


arguement I know Mars interior was very hot,and that heat would flow
upward (all heat rises) This would melt ice,and water would flow
Well david naturally I come back with
the solar system was colder 4 billion years ago(good science) Mars has
a greater mass density today than 4 billion years ago,and mass density
means today its gravity force is greater,and since gravity gives the
atmosphere its weight than today its atmospheric pressure is greater
than 4 billion years ago. Seems its best for you to go to Google or the
library to show me how all this that I showed just thinking along the
lines of good science is all bull. I can add a lot more
good science to my side but right now this will do. David never try to
lift yourself up by trying to bring someone down. I would
never kill file you .I might want to know how many moons Jupiter has?
How far is Pluto when closest to the sun What is the best telescope to
buy etc. You have a place here,and you type very well. Bert