The trouble with 'quadrature'

On Friday, December 12, 2014 4:42:56 PM UTC-8, oriel36 wrote:

http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/cms/cpg...longationB.jpg

Reformatting the references is incredibly satisfying and especially as it modifies the older expressions of elongation which used relative motions between the Earth and the inner planets and bundled them with outer planetary retrogrades

Gerald, are so infirm that you think this graphic shows greatest elongation of Venus? Note that the dotted line shows the line-of-site view of Earth-to-Venus... which happens to cross the solid line depicting the orbit of Venus, which means... oh hell, you haven't a clue, as usual... Gerald, there is NO modification of the 'older' definition of elongation, this one...

http://themcclungs.net/astronomy/images/gelongation.gif

.... is the ONLY graphic that correctly illustrates the elongation of Venus, and/or Mercury...

On Friday, December 12, 2014 8:02:45 PM UTC-8, palsing wrote:
On Friday, December 12, 2014 4:42:56 PM UTC-8, oriel36 wrote:

http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/cms/cpg...longationB.jpg

Reformatting the references is incredibly satisfying and especially as it modifies the older expressions of elongation which used relative motions between the Earth and the inner planets and bundled them with outer planetary retrogrades

Gerald, are so infirm that you think this graphic shows greatest elongation of Venus? Note that the dotted line shows the line-of-site view of Earth-to-Venus... which happens to cross the solid line depicting the orbit of Venus, which means... oh hell, you haven't a clue, as usual... Gerald, there is NO modification of the 'older' definition of elongation, this one...

http://themcclungs.net/astronomy/images/gelongation.gif

... is the ONLY graphic that correctly illustrates the elongation of Venus, and/or Mercury...

The phases of the moon indicate the orbital position of that object to the Earth and the Sun where its fully lit phase represents the greatest distance between the moon and Sun in its orbit of the Earth with the half light/half dark phase at mid points and at a tangent to the Sun/Earth line.

Learning the lesson and moving on, Venus where it is at a tangent to the Sun/Earth line also displays the same half light/half dark phase at its widest point in that graceful arc around the central Sun -

http://www.insideastronomy.com/uploa...0_7_128459.jpg

The old astronomers used an Earth/Venus line and kept the motion of the Sun through the Zodiac to bundle inner retrogrades with outer retrogrades whereas this process is an intricate process which partitions retrogrades into perspectives separating inner and outer planetary motions.

The phases of Venus understood properly refer the planet's position to the Earth and to the Sun and,as expected, at its widest point it will be at half light/half dark phase so that this aspect of observation controls the conclusion. As Venus swings out from behind the Sun the observed angle from the Earth taken from the Sun/Earth line will become greater until its reaches its greatest angle at orbital 1st quarter and then the angle will shorten as it swings in front of the Sun.

Although initially tougher to grasp than the relative motions which govern outer planetary retrogrades, the inner motions of the planets and how we see them from a moving Earth are equally lively and delightful.

On Friday, December 12, 2014 8:02:45 PM UTC-8, palsing wrote:


You know Paul,I am here in that gorgeous part of the world that is SoCal and in some ways I can put myself in your shoes even though I come from one of the Western isles of Europe. I have gained a few hours of daylight for I am getting a sun tan on my daily walks here whereas the Sun would still have to make an appearance at the same time in Ireland at close enough to 9AM. In Ireland and the UK we would be approaching mid Winter whereas in the continental USA it is considered to be the beginning of winter by virtue that the coldest weather has to come. Nobody is going to be offended as it is horses for courses even if the astronomical accuracy determines mid Winter or polar midnight on Dec 21st as opposed to a weather based experience from Solstice to Equinox.

Elongation,as a term, is meant to express the largest angular distance between an inner planet and the central Sun and that will most certainly occur when that planet is at a tangent to the Sun Earth line even though the Earth is moving,albeit slower.

http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/cms/cpg...longationB.jpg

The historical and technical details where the old astronomers used relative positions of the Earth to the inner planets forming a right angle triangle with the Sun can't be maintained when the observed graceful arc of the planet and the evolution of that planet's phases dictate when a planet's orbital position is at its widest seen from a moving Earth.

To appreciate why people of the Western isles look at Dec 21st as an astronomical midpoint you have to experience the long and slow descent into longer darkness over the months preceding the December Solstice hence people do experience relief as the return of longer periods of daylight return. I can understand why the seasonal variations in daylight/darkness asymmetries are less relevant to you and your community and why more emphasis is placed on night observing yet this huge modification involving a partitioning of retrogrades should,by right, be enjoyed more from a dessert location and away from the fog of artificial lighting.

On Saturday, December 13, 2014 2:49:10 PM UTC-8, oriel36 wrote:

Elongation,as a term, is meant to express the largest angular distance between an inner planet and the central Sun and that will most certainly occur when that planet is at a tangent to the Sun Earth line even though the Earth is moving,albeit slower.

http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/cms/cpg...longationB.jpg

Well Gerald, you are having a little problem here with definitions. A planet cannot be tangent to a straight line, a straight line can only be tangent to a curved line, and your graphic depicts no tangents at all. Your graphic, to be sure, is mis-labeled, as it declares that position B is at an elongation, which is incorrect. Both positions A & B are at so-called quadrature, although it is unclear if quadrature is even a valid term for an interior planet. As you can plainly see, the dotted line connecting Earth with position A and/or B clearly cuts across the solid line that represents the orbit of Venus (or Mercury), and just as clearly there is a point on that solid orbit line that will result in an even larger Sun-Earth-Venus angle, which is the real point of elongation!

The historical and technical details where the old astronomers used relative positions of the Earth to the inner planets forming a right angle triangle with the Sun can't be maintained when the observed graceful arc of the planet and the evolution of that planet's phases dictate when a planet's orbital position is at its widest seen from a moving Earth.

In fact, your previously referenced graphic, this one...

http://themcclungs.net/astronomy/images/gelongation.gif

CORRECTLY depicts elongation. In this graphic you can easily understand that the angle between the planet (either Venus or Mercury) and the Sun is at its greatest value possible, hence 'elongation'. It is at this placement that we see that precisely 1/2 of the planet is illuminated. Surely you can see the difference between these (2) graphics. One of them has the 90-degree angle at the Sun (quadrature) and the other has the 90-degree angle at the planet (elongation). The difference between these graphics may be subtle, but it is very real. No modification to the 'old' interpretation is needed or required, the trigonometry is simple and well understood.

Capitalization is only added for emphasis, don't get all bent out of shape :)

\Paul A

"palsing" wrote in message
...

On Saturday, December 13, 2014 2:49:10 PM UTC-8, oriel36 wrote:

Elongation,as a term, is meant to express the largest angular distance
between an inner planet and the central Sun and that will most certainly
occur when that planet is at a tangent to the Sun Earth line even though
the Earth is moving,albeit slower.

http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/cms/cpg...longationB.jpg

Well Gerald, you are having a little problem here with definitions. A
planet cannot be tangent to a straight line, a straight line can only be
tangent to a curved line, and your graphic depicts no tangents at all.
Your graphic, to be sure, is mis-labeled, as it declares that position B
is at an elongation, which is incorrect. Both positions A & B are at
so-called quadrature, although it is unclear if quadrature is even a valid
term for an interior planet. As you can plainly see, the dotted line
connecting Earth with position A and/or B clearly cuts across the solid
line that represents the orbit of Venus (or Mercury), and just as clearly
there is a point on that solid orbit line that will result in an even
larger Sun-Earth-Venus angle, which is the real point of elongation!

The historical and technical details where the old astronomers used
relative positions of the Earth to the inner planets forming a right
angle triangle with the Sun can't be maintained when the observed
graceful arc of the planet and the evolution of that planet's phases
dictate when a planet's orbital position is at its widest seen from a
moving Earth.

In fact, your previously referenced graphic, this one...

http://themcclungs.net/astronomy/images/gelongation.gif

CORRECTLY depicts elongation. In this graphic you can easily understand


Come off it. Kelleher will never understand anything, let alone easily.


that the angle between the planet (either Venus or Mercury) and the Sun
is at its greatest value possible, hence 'elongation'. It is at this
placement that we see that precisely 1/2 of the planet is illuminated.
Surely you can see the difference between these (2) graphics. One of them
has the 90-degree angle at the Sun (quadrature) and the other has the
90-degree angle at the planet (elongation). The difference between these
graphics may be subtle, but it is very real. No modification to the 'old'
interpretation is needed or required, the trigonometry is simple and well
understood.

Capitalization is only added for emphasis, don't get all bent out of shape
:)

\Paul A

On Sunday, December 14, 2014 12:18:17 PM UTC-8, palsing wrote:
On Saturday, December 13, 2014 2:49:10 PM UTC-8, oriel36 wrote:

Elongation,as a term, is meant to express the largest angular distance between an inner planet and the central Sun and that will most certainly occur when that planet is at a tangent to the Sun Earth line even though the Earth is moving,albeit slower.

http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/cms/cpg...longationB.jpg

Well Gerald, you are having a little problem here with definitions.

http://www.mathwarehouse.com/trigono...cahtoa-all.png

http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/cms/cpg...longationB.jpg

Instead of reformatting the conceptions of the great astronomers I have to deal with people who wish to drag me into definitions but ,of course, since when did anyone ever care for the delicate reasoning which distinguishes inner and outer planetary motions as we see them from a moving Earth and the supplementary arguments such as a complete set of inner planetary phases to aid in the discussion.

The right angle triangle made up of a stationary central Sun a slower moving Earth at one point of the triangle and a faster moving Venus at the other will create a correlation between orbital positions whether it is the Earth to the Sun, Venus to the Earth, Venus to the Sun or some other combination but the salient point is that Venus at its widest point shows a half dark/half light phase or at a 90 degree angle to the Sun/Earth line.

http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/cms/cpg...longationB.jpg

The angle between Venus and the central Sun as seen from Earth will be shorter either side of that orbital position at 1st and 3rd quarter and at its maximum distance from our point of view at those orbital positions.

We have an entirely different perspective of inner planetary motions than outer planetary motions so that any real astronomer, not these celestial sphere impostors, can bring any student or interested adult outside,show them Venus through their telescope and explain to them where the planet is in its orbit by the nature of its phase.

Paul,you couldn't manage the explanation for the complete set of phases as Venus travels to the opposite side of the Sun from our point of view in terms of preceding the Sun in the morning or appearing after twilight when it is one the opposite side. You won't even recognize the phase changes as actual but you are not alone despite some artistic renditions of that graceful planetary arc -

http://www.insideastronomy.com/uploa...0_7_128459.jpg

I have never seen so many people turn the vibrant discipline of astronomy into an exercise in misery and feel proud of it at the same time.

On Sunday, December 14, 2014 5:11:54 PM UTC-8, oriel36 wrote:
On Sunday, December 14, 2014 12:18:17 PM UTC-8, palsing wrote:
On Saturday, December 13, 2014 2:49:10 PM UTC-8, oriel36 wrote:

Elongation,as a term, is meant to express the largest angular distance between an inner planet and the central Sun and that will most certainly occur when that planet is at a tangent to the Sun Earth line even though the Earth is moving,albeit slower.

http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/cms/cpg...longationB.jpg

Well Gerald, you are having a little problem here with definitions.

http://www.mathwarehouse.com/trigono...cahtoa-all.png

http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/cms/cpg...longationB.jpg

Instead of reformatting the conceptions of the great astronomers I have to deal with people who wish to drag me into definitions but ,of course, since when did anyone ever care for the delicate reasoning which distinguishes inner and outer planetary motions as we see them from a moving Earth and the supplementary arguments such as a complete set of inner planetary phases to aid in the discussion.

The right angle triangle made up of a stationary central Sun a slower moving Earth at one point of the triangle and a faster moving Venus at the other will create a correlation between orbital positions whether it is the Earth to the Sun, Venus to the Earth, Venus to the Sun or some other combination but the salient point is that Venus at its widest point shows a half dark/half light phase or at a 90 degree angle to the Sun/Earth line.

http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/cms/cpg...longationB.jpg

The angle between Venus and the central Sun as seen from Earth will be shorter either side of that orbital position at 1st and 3rd quarter and at its maximum distance from our point of view at those orbital positions.

We have an entirely different perspective of inner planetary motions than outer planetary motions so that any real astronomer, not these celestial sphere impostors, can bring any student or interested adult outside,show them Venus through their telescope and explain to them where the planet is in its orbit by the nature of its phase.

Paul,you couldn't manage the explanation for the complete set of phases as Venus travels to the opposite side of the Sun from our point of view in terms of preceding the Sun in the morning or appearing after twilight when it is one the opposite side. You won't even recognize the phase changes as actual but you are not alone despite some artistic renditions of that graceful planetary arc -

http://www.insideastronomy.com/uploa...0_7_128459.jpg

I have never seen so many people turn the vibrant discipline of astronomy into an exercise in misery and feel proud of it at the same time.

Gerald, it is just not that tough to master. I can manage just fine in explaining the phases and trigonometry of Venus and Mercury, while you have displayed nothing but ignorance and are clearly not willing to accept a little help in understanding things that others can comprehend just fine. All you are doing here is exposing your weakness in mathematics, which in and of itself is certainly no crime, but it not anything to be proud of, either. I've forgotten more of this stuff that you have ever known, but it seems like the more I attempt to set you straight, the more obtuse you become. You really don't have a clue, I am sorry to say. And, just for the record, I AM educated as a real astronomer...

If you have any legitimate desire to learn something about subject matter in which you currently are woefully weak, just ask; otherwise, as we say in SoCal... Adios.

\Paul A

On Sunday, December 14, 2014 5:58:32 PM UTC-8, palsing wrote:
On Sunday, December 14, 2014 5:11:54 PM UTC-8, oriel36 wrote:
On Sunday, December 14, 2014 12:18:17 PM UTC-8, palsing wrote:
On Saturday, December 13, 2014 2:49:10 PM UTC-8, oriel36 wrote:

Elongation,as a term, is meant to express the largest angular distance between an inner planet and the central Sun and that will most certainly occur when that planet is at a tangent to the Sun Earth line even though the Earth is moving,albeit slower.

http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/cms/cpg...ongationB..jpg

Well Gerald, you are having a little problem here with definitions.

http://www.mathwarehouse.com/trigono...cahtoa-all.png

http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/cms/cpg...longationB.jpg

Instead of reformatting the conceptions of the great astronomers I have to deal with people who wish to drag me into definitions but ,of course, since when did anyone ever care for the delicate reasoning which distinguishes inner and outer planetary motions as we see them from a moving Earth and the supplementary arguments such as a complete set of inner planetary phases to aid in the discussion.

The right angle triangle made up of a stationary central Sun a slower moving Earth at one point of the triangle and a faster moving Venus at the other will create a correlation between orbital positions whether it is the Earth to the Sun, Venus to the Earth, Venus to the Sun or some other combination but the salient point is that Venus at its widest point shows a half dark/half light phase or at a 90 degree angle to the Sun/Earth line.

http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/cms/cpg...longationB.jpg

The angle between Venus and the central Sun as seen from Earth will be shorter either side of that orbital position at 1st and 3rd quarter and at its maximum distance from our point of view at those orbital positions.

We have an entirely different perspective of inner planetary motions than outer planetary motions so that any real astronomer, not these celestial sphere impostors, can bring any student or interested adult outside,show them Venus through their telescope and explain to them where the planet is in its orbit by the nature of its phase.

Paul,you couldn't manage the explanation for the complete set of phases as Venus travels to the opposite side of the Sun from our point of view in terms of preceding the Sun in the morning or appearing after twilight when it is one the opposite side. You won't even recognize the phase changes as actual but you are not alone despite some artistic renditions of that graceful planetary arc -

http://www.insideastronomy.com/uploa...0_7_128459.jpg

I have never seen so many people turn the vibrant discipline of astronomy into an exercise in misery and feel proud of it at the same time.

Gerald, it is just not that tough to master. I can manage just fine in explaining the phases and trigonometry of Venus and Mercury, while you have displayed nothing but ignorance and are clearly not willing to accept a little help in understanding things that others can comprehend just fine. All you are doing here is exposing your weakness in mathematics, which in and of itself is certainly no crime, but it not anything to be proud of, either. I've forgotten more of this stuff that you have ever known, but it seems like the more I attempt to set you straight, the more obtuse you become. You really don't have a clue, I am sorry to say. And, just for the record, I AM educated as a real astronomer...

If you have any legitimate desire to learn something about subject matter in which you currently are woefully weak, just ask; otherwise, as we say in SoCal... Adios.

\Paul A

Teach these kids who show up at your star parties all that has been presented here including the important location of an inner planet's position to both a moving Earth and the central Sun with particular attention to its half light/half dark phase.

On Sunday, December 14, 2014 5:58:32 PM UTC-8, palsing wrote:
And, just for the record, I AM educated as a real astronomer...


\Paul A

I have no time for dealing with celestial sphere impostors,only time for revisiting what the original heliocentric astronomers looked at the inner and outer planets without distinguishing the perspectives. I have great admiration for those men by virtue that they didn't have anything close to the tools available today where more enjoyable perspectives emerge including this one.

"For here one may understand, by attentive observation, why Jupiter appears to have a larger progression and retrogression than Saturn, and smaller than Mars, and again why Venus has larger ones than Mercury; why such a doubling back appears more frequently in Saturn than in Jupiter, and still more rarely in Mars and Venus than in Mercury; and furthermore why Saturn, Jupiter and Mars are nearer to the Earth when in opposition than in the region of their occultations by the Sun and re-appearance . . . . All these phenomena proceed from the same cause, which lies in the motion of the Earth." De Revolutionibus

Call yourselves astronomers if that is what you want but at least teach these people who show up at these star parties how to use the moon's phases to designate its orbital position around the Earth with a planetary equivalent as Venus will show its half phase at the greatest distance from the Sun and that means like this -

http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/cms/cpg...longationB.jpg

On Sunday, December 14, 2014 6:15:41 PM UTC-8, oriel36 wrote:
On Sunday, December 14, 2014 5:58:32 PM UTC-8, palsing wrote:
On Sunday, December 14, 2014 5:11:54 PM UTC-8, oriel36 wrote:
On Sunday, December 14, 2014 12:18:17 PM UTC-8, palsing wrote:
On Saturday, December 13, 2014 2:49:10 PM UTC-8, oriel36 wrote:

Elongation,as a term, is meant to express the largest angular distance between an inner planet and the central Sun and that will most certainly occur when that planet is at a tangent to the Sun Earth line even though the Earth is moving,albeit slower.

http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/cms/cpg...longationB.jpg

Well Gerald, you are having a little problem here with definitions.

http://www.mathwarehouse.com/trigono...cahtoa-all.png

http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/cms/cpg...longationB.jpg

Instead of reformatting the conceptions of the great astronomers I have to deal with people who wish to drag me into definitions but ,of course, since when did anyone ever care for the delicate reasoning which distinguishes inner and outer planetary motions as we see them from a moving Earth and the supplementary arguments such as a complete set of inner planetary phases to aid in the discussion.

The right angle triangle made up of a stationary central Sun a slower moving Earth at one point of the triangle and a faster moving Venus at the other will create a correlation between orbital positions whether it is the Earth to the Sun, Venus to the Earth, Venus to the Sun or some other combination but the salient point is that Venus at its widest point shows a half dark/half light phase or at a 90 degree angle to the Sun/Earth line.

http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/cms/cpg...longationB.jpg

The angle between Venus and the central Sun as seen from Earth will be shorter either side of that orbital position at 1st and 3rd quarter and at its maximum distance from our point of view at those orbital positions.

We have an entirely different perspective of inner planetary motions than outer planetary motions so that any real astronomer, not these celestial sphere impostors, can bring any student or interested adult outside,show them Venus through their telescope and explain to them where the planet is in its orbit by the nature of its phase.

Paul,you couldn't manage the explanation for the complete set of phases as Venus travels to the opposite side of the Sun from our point of view in terms of preceding the Sun in the morning or appearing after twilight when it is one the opposite side. You won't even recognize the phase changes as actual but you are not alone despite some artistic renditions of that graceful planetary arc -

http://www.insideastronomy.com/uploa...0_7_128459.jpg

I have never seen so many people turn the vibrant discipline of astronomy into an exercise in misery and feel proud of it at the same time.

Gerald, it is just not that tough to master. I can manage just fine in explaining the phases and trigonometry of Venus and Mercury, while you have displayed nothing but ignorance and are clearly not willing to accept a little help in understanding things that others can comprehend just fine. All you are doing here is exposing your weakness in mathematics, which in and of itself is certainly no crime, but it not anything to be proud of, either.. I've forgotten more of this stuff that you have ever known, but it seems like the more I attempt to set you straight, the more obtuse you become. You really don't have a clue, I am sorry to say. And, just for the record, I AM educated as a real astronomer...

If you have any legitimate desire to learn something about subject matter in which you currently are woefully weak, just ask; otherwise, as we say in SoCal... Adios.

\Paul A

Teach these kids who show up at your star parties all that has been presented here including the important location of an inner planet's position to both a moving Earth and the central Sun with particular attention to its half light/half dark phase.

Sure, except you have the details incorrect...