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The trouble with 'quadrature'



 
 
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  #1  
Old December 8th 14, 12:49 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
oriel36[_2_]
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Default The trouble with 'quadrature'

"Quadrature (astronomy), the position of a body (moon or planet) such that its elongation is 90° or 270°; i.e. the earth-sun-body angle is 90°" Wikipedia

This all relates to the difference between the old resolution of retrogrades of the inner planets and the new version which has only really appeared this year.

The old astronomers were used to viewing the motion of the Sun through the Zodiac and this was retained when astronomy originally made the transition from geocentric astronomy to one based on the motions of the Earth. Although Copernicus and Kepler never used the term 'quadrature' they did use elongation so this is problematic as quadrature is not only applied to the Moon's position relative to the Earth and Sun,it is also tied to its phases where it shows half light/half dark at quadrature -

http://www.trueanomalies.com/wp-cont...adrature1..png

The equivalent phase of Venus is when it is at a position where the Sun is at a center of a right angle between the Earth and Venus whereas the maximum elongation was taken by the older astronomers to represent a right angle centered on Venus and the position of the Sun -

http://www.1728.org/synodic3.png

This is not a minor distinction between the phases of Venus and the Moon as it pertains to elongation as an extension of quadrature, this is an entirely different approach to perspectives which distinguish inner planetary motions and outer planetary motions as seen from a moving Earth. This type of restructuring is not for the timid as it involves an incredible variety and amount of modifications and such an endeavor is clinical in its methods and aim .

As long as the new approach to inner planetary retrogrades and the separate resolution to outer planetary retrogrades goes unrecognized and unappreciated then nothing is going to happen/

  #2  
Old December 8th 14, 04:12 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
palsing[_2_]
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Default The trouble with 'quadrature'

On Sunday, December 7, 2014 3:49:50 PM UTC-8, oriel36 wrote:

"Quadrature (astronomy), the position of a body (moon or planet) such that its elongation is 90° or 270°; i.e. the earth-sun-body angle is 90°" Wikipedia

This all relates to the difference between the old resolution of retrogrades of the inner planets and the new version which has only really appeared this year.


Wrong, oh Great Poobah. Quadrature has NOTHING to do with retrogrades, but rather with the greatest elongation of the planets. You're the guy who likes to tell everyone about the grandeur of watching Venus swing out from behind the Sun before crossing in front of it, and that point in time when Venus is at its greatest distance from the Sun, and before it starts to reverse its direction, it where it is at its greatest elongation, or QUADRATURE, before heading inwards. What'sa matter for you?

As long as the new approach to inner planetary retrogrades and the separate resolution to outer planetary retrogrades goes unrecognized and unappreciated then nothing is going to happen/


Gerald, so sorry, there is no "new approach", except in your wobbly mind. Retrogrades have been fully understood for a very long time...

\Paul A

  #3  
Old December 8th 14, 09:37 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
oriel36[_2_]
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Default The trouble with 'quadrature'

On Monday, December 8, 2014 3:12:23 AM UTC, palsing wrote:
On Sunday, December 7, 2014 3:49:50 PM UTC-8, oriel36 wrote:

"Quadrature (astronomy), the position of a body (moon or planet) such that its elongation is 90° or 270°; i.e. the earth-sun-body angle is 90°" Wikipedia

This all relates to the difference between the old resolution of retrogrades of the inner planets and the new version which has only really appeared this year.


Wrong, oh Great Poobah. Quadrature has NOTHING to do with retrogrades, but rather with the greatest elongation of the planets. You're the guy who likes to tell everyone about the grandeur of watching Venus swing out from behind the Sun before crossing in front of it, and that point in time when Venus is at its greatest distance from the Sun, and before it starts to reverse its direction, it where it is at its greatest elongation, or QUADRATURE, before heading inwards. What'sa matter for you?

As long as the new approach to inner planetary retrogrades and the separate resolution to outer planetary retrogrades goes unrecognized and unappreciated then nothing is going to happen/


Gerald, so sorry, there is no "new approach", except in your wobbly mind. Retrogrades have been fully understood for a very long time...

\Paul A



It should be second nature by now that we have a grandstand view of the inner planets and that the Earth's orbital input is entirely different than the relative speeds which are paramount with outer planetary retrogrades and these things can be understood in general detail without even going into finer details like size and luminosity variations as the planets move closer or recede from our orbit. This is how normal people talk.

http://www.moonconnection.com/images...es_diagram.jpg

The moon at quadrature shows its half light/half dark phase where its position is at 90 Degrees to the Sun/Earth line and similarly Venus shows the same phase to us when it is 90 Degrees with the Sun at the center of a right angle triangle with the Earth's orbital position forming the third point of that triangle.

http://www.insideastronomy.com/uploa...0_7_128459.jpg

Venus is always at its widest point from the Sun when the Earth's orbital position is at a 90 Degree angle to Venus with the central Sun as a fixed reference insofar as we see that planet move directly around the Sun. This 90 Degree angle is best understood via its half dark/half light phase so elongation as the original astronomers deemed it is disruptive for appreciating phases in context of a celestial object's position to either the Earth in case of the moon or Venus in context of its orbital position to the central Sun and our orbital position. When making sense of phases and the widest point an inner planet is from the Sun from our point of view the geometry should look like this -

http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/cms/cpg...longationB.jpg

The old astronomers had used a different and less productive view inherited from the geocentric astronomers where the planet was a fixed reference for a 90 Degree angle to the Sun -

http://themcclungs.net/astronomy/images/gelongation.gif

I do not even ask that observers follow the geometric logic used by the older astronomers but rather dwell on the moon's phase and its orbital position around the Earth as a point of departure for looking at planetary phases and their position to us and to the central Sun.

Gratuitous insulting doesn't even give me a headache by now even if readers beg me to make it a platform for discussions but I simply don't have the time to deal with anything other than what is technically in front of me.

Beautiful full moon out there this morning with the Sun on one horizon and the moon on the opposite so I know that the moon is near its furthest distance from the Sun in its orbit of the Earth.




  #4  
Old December 11th 14, 04:29 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
oriel36[_2_]
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Default The trouble with 'quadrature'

Thankfully there are a few that know nor care about this aspect of observations and therefore it leaves for a fairly open territory when exploring the use of inner planetary phases with the location of the Earth and the inner planets with respect to the Sun and to each other. Some might jump in without having considered the matter carefully or act as if it is common knowledge however inner planetary retrogrades haven't been touched since the time of Copernicus and although adjustments have been made to the criteria introduced by the telescope such as recognition of phases, a full picture only really emerges now.

There are a number of variants of quadrature which do not work and only one that does.

In chapter 7 and preceding chapters of De Revolutionibus the relationship between orbits of Earth,Venus and Mercury are discussed using the geometry of a triangle and elongation where the Earth's orbital position to the Sun creates a foundation for the orbital position of the inner planet ,originally Copernicus used a right angle triangle centered on the planet -

http://themcclungs.net/astronomy/images/gelongation.gif

Some modern variants retain the 90 degree angle centered on the inner planet but alter the Earth's position and this is equally unsatisfactory -

http://www.jgiesen.de/skymap/MercuryVenus/

In combination with phases and the fact that we do see Venus at its greatest distance from the Sun at quadrature in terms of a half light/half dark phase, the geometry would be like so -

http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/cms/cpg...longationB.jpg

Nobody should feel the necessity to jump into this thread and use it as a means to try and insult me for as far as I am concerned the real insult is not even recognizing what the differences are and why they are important in context of solar system structure and our own motions within it. There is a dignity and integrity attached to these things when observers find themselves accustomed to the ins and outs of geometric points of view and actual perspectives and it does make a change from the social/political mediocrity which has taken place within the forum.



  #5  
Old December 12th 14, 07:18 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Pastor Ravi Holy of Ghetti Spa
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Default The trouble with 'quadrature'



"oriel36" wrote in message
...

Thankfully there are a few that know nor care about this aspect of
observations and therefore it leaves for a fairly open territory when
exploring the use of inner planetary phases with the location of the Earth
and the inner planets with respect to the Sun and to each other. Some
might jump in without having considered the matter carefully or act as if
it is common knowledge however inner planetary retrogrades haven't been
touched since the time of Copernicus and although adjustments have been
made to the criteria introduced by the telescope such as recognition of
phases, a full picture only really emerges now.

There are a number of variants of quadrature which do not work and only
one that does.

In chapter 7 and preceding chapters of De Revolutionibus the relationship
between orbits of Earth,Venus and Mercury are discussed using the geometry
of a triangle and elongation where the Earth's orbital position to the Sun
creates a foundation for the orbital position of the inner planet
,originally Copernicus used a right angle triangle centered on the
planet -

http://themcclungs.net/astronomy/images/gelongation.gif


Venus at first quarter. Thankfully there are a few that know about this
aspect of observation.





Some modern variants retain the 90 degree angle centered on the inner
planet but alter the Earth's position and this is equally unsatisfactory -

http://www.jgiesen.de/skymap/MercuryVenus/


Mercury at first and third quarter. Thankfully there are a few that know
about this highly satisfactory aspect of observation.



In combination with phases and the fact that we do see Venus at its
greatest distance from the Sun at quadrature in terms of a half light/half
dark phase, the geometry would be like so -

http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/cms/cpg...longationB.jpg


Waxing/waning Mercury or Venus. Thankfully there are a few that know about
this highly satisfactory aspect of observation.



Nobody should feel the necessity to jump into this thread and use it as a
means to try and insult me for as far as I am concerned the real insult is
not even recognizing what the differences are and why they are important
in context of solar system structure and our own motions within it. There
is a dignity and integrity attached to these things when observers find
themselves accustomed to the ins and outs of geometric points of view and
actual perspectives and it does make a change from the social/political
mediocrity which has taken place within the forum.

Is it insulting the unsatisfactory moron to ask what the hell he's
babbling about?

-- Pastor Ravi Holy of Ghetti Spa
ti

  #6  
Old December 12th 14, 03:03 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
oriel36[_2_]
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Posts: 8,478
Default The trouble with 'quadrature'

The original heliocentric astronomers worked off relative motions hence the use of quadrature with Venus and Mercury at the center of a right angle triangle created by the Earth and Sun forming the three components of that triangle -

http://themcclungs.net/astronomy/images/gelongation.gif

This is why inner planetary retrogrades are lumped together with outer planetary retrogrades with observations accounted for by relative motions and particularly a moving Earth -

"Now what is said here of Jupiter is to be understood of Saturn and Mars also. In Saturn these retrogressions are somewhat more frequent than in Jupiter, because its motion is slower than Jupiter's, so that the Earth overtakes it in a shorter time. In Mars they are rarer, its motion being faster than that of Jupiter, so that the Earth spends more time in catching up with it. Next, as to Venus and Mercury, whose circles are included within that of the Earth, stoppings and retrograde motions appear in them also, due not to any motion that really exists in them, but to the annual motion of the Earth. This is acutely demonstrated by Copernicus..." Galileo

Again,few neither know nor care about these type of observations and especially why the partitioning between inner and outer retrogrades by means of perspective should be new and exciting for observers. The outer planetary retrogrades are accounted for by relative speeds however the inner retrogrades take a lot more work but are equally lovely in how that motion is expressed to us as the planets circle the Sun.



  #7  
Old December 12th 14, 07:02 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Bill[_9_]
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Default The trouble with 'quadrature'

On Fri, 12 Dec 2014 06:18:26 -0000, Pastor Ravi Holy of Ghetti Spa
wrote:

Is it insulting the unsatisfactory moron to ask what the hell he's
babbling about?


You should consult the Rev. Al D.Ente about your question yourself; but
when I asked him, he told me that oriel won't, ever, provide any answers
that people can sink their teeth into.

--
Email address is a Spam trap.
  #8  
Old December 12th 14, 10:48 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Pastor Ravi Holy of Ghetti Spa
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Default The trouble with 'quadrature'



"Bill" wrote in message
...

On Fri, 12 Dec 2014 06:18:26 -0000, Pastor Ravi Holy of Ghetti Spa
wrote:

Is it insulting the unsatisfactory moron to ask what the hell he's
babbling about?


You should consult the Rev. Al D.Ente about your question yourself; but
when I asked him, he told me that oriel won't, ever, provide any answers
that people can sink their teeth into.

It seems Kelleher has discovered trigonometry and as is his usual custom,
assumes he is the first to do so. What is baffling is his declaration of it
being "unsatisfactory".

-- Pastor Ravi Holy of Ghetti Spa
ti

  #9  
Old December 13th 14, 01:42 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
oriel36[_2_]
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Default The trouble with 'quadrature'

Venus at it greatest observed position (elongation) from the Sun will show a half dark/half light phase before its swings in front of our central star -

http://www.popastro.com/images/plane...ary%202012.jpg

After that phase the angle between Venus and the Sun will shorten when witnessed by an observer on a moving Earth given a true representation of the tangent between the Earth and Venus with the central Sun as a fixed reference for that right angle triangle and true quadrature -

http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/cms/cpg...longationB.jpg

Reformatting the references is incredibly satisfying and especially as it modifies the older expressions of elongation which used relative motions between the Earth and the inner planets and bundled them with outer planetary retrogrades -

"We find, then, in this arrangement the marvelous symmetry of the universe, and a sure linking together in harmony of the motion and size of the spheres, such as could be perceived in no other way. For here one may understand, by attentive observation, why Jupiter appears to have a larger progression and retrogression than Saturn, and smaller than Mars, and again why Venus has larger ones than Mercury; why such a doubling back appears more frequently in Saturn than in Jupiter, and still more rarely in Mars and Venus than in Mercury; and furthermore why Saturn, Jupiter and Mars are nearer to the Earth when in opposition than in the region of their occultations by the Sun and re-appearance . . . . All these phenomena proceed from the same cause, which lies in the motion of the Earth." De Revolutionibus

The Earth's orbital motion plays as much smaller role is respect to the faster motion of the inner planets yet one such anchor is the Sun/Earth line by which the motion of the inner planets are gauged and especially Venus whereas the older system using relative motions and periodic times was labored and ultimately flawed.

As the Earth overtakes the outer planets,they temporarily fall behind in view but the inner planets are an altogether different story as they overtake us including that rare event when Venus crosses the line of sight formed by the Sun/Earth line at full dark phase -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7U5VbasKr4

Even in principle, inner and outer planetary retrogrades and supporting observations are difference hence this looming modification to the perspectives issued by Copernicus himself.The work of those men lose nothing compared to the chaos and damage inflicted on them in later centuries by people who had no feeling for what works and what was temporarily destroyed for a clockwork solar system.









  #10  
Old December 13th 14, 04:40 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Pastor Ravi Holy of Ghetti Spa
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Posts: 89
Default The trouble with 'kelleher'



"oriel36" wrote in message
...


After that phase the angle between Venus and the Sun will shorten


Angles narrow as they close or widen as they open, they never shorten or
lengthen. There is no angle between Venus and the Sun, every angle needs two
straight lines meeting at a vertex.

-- Pastor Ravi Holy of Ghetti Spa
ti

 




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