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  #11  
Old August 11th 14, 01:32 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
oriel36[_2_]
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Observers in the Northern hemisphere looking towards the Equator and watching the daily arc of the Sun from horizon to horizon will see the familiar arc in the opposite direction to circumpolar motion while watching the seasonal variations in that arc -

http://www.astronomy.org/programs/se...-sun-sm.gif744


Observers in the Southern hemisphere looking towards the Equator will see the exact same arc daily with the seasonal variations but in the opposite direction to the Southern circumpolar motion of those stars.

When I find myself explaining the apparent motion of the Sun and its familiar daily arc and seasonal variations and there are still people believe the Sun moves in an unnatural arc with circumpolar motion then perhaps there is no longer an advantage to post here as somebody might assume there was a discussion between men.




  #12  
Old August 11th 14, 04:34 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
palsing[_2_]
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On Sunday, August 10, 2014 5:32:14 PM UTC-7, oriel36 wrote:
Observers in the Northern hemisphere looking towards the Equator and watching the daily arc of the Sun from horizon to horizon will see the familiar arc in the opposite direction to circumpolar motion while watching the seasonal variations in that arc -



http://www.astronomy.org/programs/se...-sun-sm.gif744


Your link does not work, but even you are not so stupid that you can't see with your own eyes that both the Sun and the moon and the stars ALL rise in the east and set in the west, all day, every day; even planets in retrograde rise in the east and set in the west.

Even though circumpolar objects don't actually rise or set (being, well, circumpolar), they still appear to rotate around the pole in the same direction as everything else, that is, east-to-west, even during inferior culmination...

Think a little more before you speak.
  #13  
Old August 11th 14, 07:12 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Lord Androcles[_3_]
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Default Mars Spectacular



"palsing" wrote in message
...

On Sunday, August 10, 2014 5:32:14 PM UTC-7, oriel36 wrote:
Observers in the Northern hemisphere looking towards the Equator and
watching the daily arc of the Sun from horizon to horizon will see the
familiar arc in the opposite direction to circumpolar motion while
watching the seasonal variations in that arc -



http://www.astronomy.org/programs/se...-sun-sm.gif744


Your link does not work, but even you are not so stupid that you can't see
with your own eyes that both the Sun and the moon and the stars ALL rise in
the east and set in the west, all day, every day; even planets in retrograde
rise in the east and set in the west.

Even though circumpolar objects don't actually rise or set (being, well,
circumpolar), they still appear to rotate around the pole in the same
direction as everything else, that is, east-to-west, even during inferior
culmination...

Think a little more before you speak.

=================================================
Ahem...
What Kelleher is trying to say is either
1) it takes longer for the Sun to cross the arc than it does the stars
(solar v sidereal) and even longer than that for the Moon which is moving
West to East, so the Sun and Moon move in the opposite direction RELATIVELY
to the (circumpolar) stars, or
2) Facing South the Sun moves left to right, but facing North it moves right
to left.


-- The Reverend Lord Androcles, Archbishop of Ballistic Light.

  #14  
Old August 11th 14, 10:25 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
oriel36[_2_]
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Default Mars Spectacular

There is a wonderful astronomical symphony attached to the daily arcs of the Sun as our location arcs upwards from sunrise and reaches noon and then arcs downward hence we see this effect of a round an rotating Earth daily. The seasonal variations in that arc are due to an additional surface rotation to the central Sun which changes the length of time the Sun arcs from horizon to horizon and more interestingly the variations in height as a consequence of the orbital component of surface rotation. It is,of course, a new area of astronomy to visit with visual narratives even with a cult out there who insist in bypassing the daily arcs of the Sun by being fixated on circumpolar motion of the distant stars.


There is no further need to revisit the hideous idea of the Sun following a circumpolar arc even if it is proposed as 'fact' to a society that has yet to engage with genuine astronomy through contemporary tools which include magnification but are not solely reliant on that facet of astronomy.

There is a wonderful sense of freedom for those who are not disposed to distorting observations to suit a celestial sphere agenda whether they call it universal gravity,relativity or some other variation on those hapless themes. There is,however,a second chance for those who straighten out all the references which lead to explanations of cause and effect,solar system structure and so on in an atmosphere of cooperation and genuine healthy competition.

This is all good and a sign that the stagnation which caused the life to go out of astronomy is now setting the groundwork for a return to a vibrant and productive state.



  #15  
Old August 11th 14, 03:27 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Bill[_9_]
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Default Mars Spectacular

On Mon, 11 Aug 2014 02:25:17 -0700 (PDT), oriel36 wrote:

There is a wonderful astronomical symphony attached to the daily arcs of the Sun as our location arcs upwards from sunrise and reaches noon and then arcs downward hence we see this effect of a round an rotating Earth daily. The seasonal variations in that arc are due to an additional surface rotation to the central Sun which changes the length of time the Sun arcs from horizon to horizon and more interestingly the variations in height as a consequence of the orbital component of surface rotation. It is,of course, a new area of astronomy to visit with visual narratives even with a cult out there who insist in bypassing the daily arcs of the Sun by being fixated on circumpolar motion of the distant stars.

There is no further need to revisit the hideous idea of the Sun following a circumpolar arc even if it is proposed as 'fact' to a society that has yet to engage with genuine astronomy through contemporary tools which include magnification but are not solely reliant on that facet of astronomy.

There is a wonderful sense of freedom for those who are not disposed to distorting observations to suit a celestial sphere agenda whether they call it universal gravity,relativity or some other variation on those hapless themes. There is,however,a second chance for those who straighten out all the references which lead to explanations of cause and effect,solar system structure and so on in an atmosphere of cooperation and genuine healthy competition.

This is all good and a sign that the stagnation which caused the life to go out of astronomy is now setting the groundwork for a return to a vibrant and productive state.


..
How it is that anyone (astronomer - by any definition, or any
layperson) can logically assert that the Sun's apparent motion (on short
time scales): is circumpolar; and say it with a clear conscience, is
something you'll either figure out for yourself - or you won't.
  #16  
Old August 11th 14, 06:43 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Quadibloc
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Default Mars Spectacular

On Sunday, August 10, 2014 12:30:22 PM UTC-6, oriel36 wrote:

The daily arc of the Sun from East to West is in the opposite direction to
circumpolar motion


I'm sorry to break this to you, but the stars also rise in the East.

John Savard
  #17  
Old August 11th 14, 06:45 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Quadibloc
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Posts: 7,018
Default Mars Spectacular

On Sunday, August 10, 2014 1:34:57 PM UTC-6, Lord Androcles wrote:

My eyeball has an aperture of 1-2 mm with a zero budget. Explain why 8
inches of telescope aperture is crucial, given that the Moon subtends an arc
of 1/2 a degree and is 238,000 miles away.


Because I was talking about looking at Mars, and seeing it as big as the Moon is with the naked eye.

That's what the post to which I was replying to was talking about:

(begin quote)
At a relatively small magnification
MARS WILL LOOK AS LARGE AS THE FULL MOON TO THE NAKED EYE
(end quote)

John Savard
  #18  
Old August 11th 14, 08:12 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
oriel36[_2_]
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Posts: 8,478
Default Mars Spectacular

On Monday, August 11, 2014 3:27:29 PM UTC+1, Bill wrote:
On Mon, 11 Aug 2014 02:25:17 -0700 (PDT), oriel36 wrote:



There is a wonderful astronomical symphony attached to the daily arcs of the Sun as our location arcs upwards from sunrise and reaches noon and then arcs downward hence we see this effect of a round an rotating Earth daily. The seasonal variations in that arc are due to an additional surface rotation to the central Sun which changes the length of time the Sun arcs from horizon to horizon and more interestingly the variations in height as a consequence of the orbital component of surface rotation. It is,of course, a new area of astronomy to visit with visual narratives even with a cult out there who insist in bypassing the daily arcs of the Sun by being fixated on circumpolar motion of the distant stars.




There is no further need to revisit the hideous idea of the Sun following a circumpolar arc even if it is proposed as 'fact' to a society that has yet to engage with genuine astronomy through contemporary tools which include magnification but are not solely reliant on that facet of astronomy.




There is a wonderful sense of freedom for those who are not disposed to distorting observations to suit a celestial sphere agenda whether they call it universal gravity,relativity or some other variation on those hapless themes. There is,however,a second chance for those who straighten out all the references which lead to explanations of cause and effect,solar system structure and so on in an atmosphere of cooperation and genuine healthy competition.




This is all good and a sign that the stagnation which caused the life to go out of astronomy is now setting the groundwork for a return to a vibrant and productive state.




.

How it is that anyone (astronomer - by any definition, or any

layperson) can logically assert that the Sun's apparent motion (on short

time scales): is circumpolar; and say it with a clear conscience, is

something you'll either figure out for yourself - or you won't.


The daily arc of the Sun from horizon to horizon does not follow a circumpolar arc insofar as the daily arc is in the opposite direction to circumpolar motion looking South towards the Equator and variations in that arc from greater to smaller as the Earth moves from its June to December orbital position is matched in the Southern hemisphere by an opposite apparent movement in the same arc from smaller to greater and in the opposite arc to the Southern circumpolar stars.

It is not a clear conscience as that assumes intelligence of some standard, what you are prepared to believes defies description as this is the apparent daily motion of the Sun and its seasonal variations that is being challenged because the Sun follows no circumpolar arc from horizon to horizon -

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/...ole-sunset.htm

The only acceptable variations in the arc of the Sun from horizon to horizon are the normal seasonal arcs with greater arcs away from the Equator as the season progresses towards hemispherical summer -

http://www.astronomy.org/programs/se...ing-sun-sm.gif


With 3 centuries of empirical voodoo creating an interpretative atrophy in our race it is no wonder that not even the apparent motion of the Sun survives as an observation.



















  #19  
Old August 11th 14, 09:11 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Lord Androcles[_3_]
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Posts: 575
Default Mars Spectacular



"Quadibloc" wrote in message
...

On Sunday, August 10, 2014 1:34:57 PM UTC-6, Lord Androcles wrote:

My eyeball has an aperture of 1-2 mm with a zero budget. Explain why 8
inches of telescope aperture is crucial, given that the Moon subtends an
arc
of 1/2 a degree and is 238,000 miles away.


Because I was talking about looking at Mars, and seeing it as big as the
Moon is with the naked eye.

That's what the post to which I was replying to was talking about:

(begin quote)
At a relatively small magnification
MARS WILL LOOK AS LARGE AS THE FULL MOON TO THE NAKED EYE
(end quote)

John Savard
================================================== ==============
Are you claiming the Moon is 8 inches in diameter to the naked eye? Seems to
me a nickel at arms length will completely occult it, so I'm wondering
why the 'scope needs an aperture of 8 inches. Do you snip your own words
because you are embarrassed by them?

begin quote \
Well, _that's_ not the Moon hoax; it doesn't violate the laws of physics for
Mars to look as big as the full moon does, from Earth... if you magnify
Mars, but not the Moon.

However, that is a value of "relatively small" that requires at least a
telescope with 8 inches of aperture. So amateur astronomers with modest
budgets may take issue with that.
\end quote

Which hat did you pluck 8 inches from?

-- The Reverend Lord Androcles, Archbishop of Ballistic Light.

  #20  
Old August 11th 14, 10:50 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Mike Collins[_4_]
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Default Mars Spectacular

oriel36 wrote:
On Monday, August 11, 2014 3:27:29 PM UTC+1, Bill wrote:
On Mon, 11 Aug 2014 02:25:17 -0700 (PDT), oriel36 wrote:



There is a wonderful astronomical symphony attached to the daily arcs
of the Sun as our location arcs upwards from sunrise and reaches noon
and then arcs downward hence we see this effect of a round an rotating
Earth daily. The seasonal variations in that arc are due to an
additional surface rotation to the central Sun which changes the length
of time the Sun arcs from horizon to horizon and more interestingly the
variations in height as a consequence of the orbital component of
surface rotation. It is,of course, a new area of astronomy to visit
with visual narratives even with a cult out there who insist in
bypassing the daily arcs of the Sun by being fixated on circumpolar
motion of the distant stars.




There is no further need to revisit the hideous idea of the Sun
following a circumpolar arc even if it is proposed as 'fact' to a
society that has yet to engage with genuine astronomy through
contemporary tools which include magnification but are not solely
reliant on that facet of astronomy.




There is a wonderful sense of freedom for those who are not disposed to
distorting observations to suit a celestial sphere agenda whether they
call it universal gravity,relativity or some other variation on those
hapless themes. There is,however,a second chance for those who
straighten out all the references which lead to explanations of cause
and effect,solar system structure and so on in an atmosphere of
cooperation and genuine healthy competition.




This is all good and a sign that the stagnation which caused the life
to go out of astronomy is now setting the groundwork for a return to a
vibrant and productive state.




.

How it is that anyone (astronomer - by any definition, or any

layperson) can logically assert that the Sun's apparent motion (on short

time scales): is circumpolar; and say it with a clear conscience, is

something you'll either figure out for yourself - or you won't.


The daily arc of the Sun from horizon to horizon does not follow a
circumpolar arc insofar as the daily arc is in the opposite direction to
circumpolar motion looking South towards the Equator and variations in
that arc from greater to smaller as the Earth moves from its June to
December orbital position is matched in the Southern hemisphere by an
opposite apparent movement in the same arc from smaller to greater and in
the opposite arc to the Southern circumpolar stars.

It is not a clear conscience as that assumes intelligence of some
standard, what you are prepared to believes defies description as this is
the apparent daily motion of the Sun and its seasonal variations that is
being challenged because the Sun follows no circumpolar arc from horizon to horizon -

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/...ole-sunset.htm

The only acceptable variations in the arc of the Sun from horizon to
horizon are the normal seasonal arcs with greater arcs away from the
Equator as the season progresses towards hemispherical summer -

http://www.astronomy.org/programs/se...ing-sun-sm.gif


With 3 centuries of empirical voodoo creating an interpretative atrophy
in our race it is no wonder that not even the apparent motion of the Sun
survives as an observation.


You can decide whether or not this is acceptable:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1122531... noredirect=1


This link will take you to a slideshow of the views of the sun at
Hammerfest, just inside the arctic circle, at midsummer.
You can easily see how the sun, planets and stars all follow the same path
around the pole. As the sun reaches the edge of the slide the viewpoint
changes. For the southern views the projection changes to allow views of
the sun and Polaris.

This is my first try at such a slideshow. You may have to copy and paste
the link to make it work.

I chose Hammerfest rather than the North Pole because you can go there
yourself that this simulation is correct.
 




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