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#21
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On Tuesday, March 5, 2019 at 8:11:44 AM UTC-7, Quadibloc wrote:
On Monday, March 4, 2019 at 4:07:24 PM UTC-7, Chris L Peterson wrote: Well, that demands a lot more space than is reasonable here. Look at the work of Wilkinson, Pickett, Stiglitz. The correlations between income, and especially wealth, inequality are strong and extend to virtually every social ill. (And it is seen over solid data extending back over 250 years.) At this point, I was going to reply that a correlation, without a causative mechanism, tends to be viewed as unsatisfying. But I see this was addressed. And there is a growing body of work by social scientists and economists explaining the causative factors. And it isn't being poor. Social problems are far more severe in rich nations with large inequality than in poor ones that are more egalitarian. That sounds kind of like the "envy" effect that John mentioned. In the end, it probably comes down to our sense of fairness, and our sense of common identity. When disparities grow too large, we end up with class struggles and a society with subcultures where there is no common identity. Here, though, I would suggest that cause and effect are reversed. A country like Sweden can have a very robust social safety net, because, until quite recently, just about everyone there was a Swede. There wasn't some large group of people in the country who were despised for being lazy, for not having paid attention in school, and expecting the same rewards as those who are diligent. People will share with their brothers, but not with foreigners. And thus the contention of Libertarians that the Right and the Left are both the same thing, since both lead the way to more government control ... among many other things. People have an idea of fairness that includes equality - but it also includes equality of effort. When you have diversity in a society, things break down. John Savard So diversity isn't the great thing it's cracked up to be? I guess not when the diversity is in degree of effort. "By working faithfully eight hours a day you may eventually get to be boss and work twelve hours a day."Â*-- Robert Frost “I am a great believer in luck. And I find the harder I work the more I have of it.” -- Stephen Leacock “Socialism never took root in America because the poor there see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.” – John Steinbeck I guess we don't think that way any more :-( |
#22
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Chris L Peterson:
In the end, it probably comes down to our sense of fairness, and our sense of common identity. I have not traditionally been a pessimist, but I am coming to believe that our sense of fairness and our sense of common identity have been shattered. When disparities grow too large, we end up with class struggles and a society with subcultures where there is no common identity. Likewise, I fear that we have already reached that situation. I think that if the U.S.A. is not a failed state it is on its way to becoming one. Roughly half the country loathes the beliefs of the other half and it seems the two halves share little or no social common ground, no compatible hopes for the country's future. I can't see how the social and political aims of the two halves can be reconciled. -- I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that you will say in your entire life. usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm |
#23
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On Tue, 05 Mar 2019 18:10:23 -0500, Davoud wrote:
Chris L Peterson: In the end, it probably comes down to our sense of fairness, and our sense of common identity. I have not traditionally been a pessimist, but I am coming to believe that our sense of fairness and our sense of common identity have been shattered. When disparities grow too large, we end up with class struggles and a society with subcultures where there is no common identity. Likewise, I fear that we have already reached that situation. I think that if the U.S.A. is not a failed state it is on its way to becoming one. Roughly half the country loathes the beliefs of the other half and it seems the two halves share little or no social common ground, no compatible hopes for the country's future. I can't see how the social and political aims of the two halves can be reconciled. I tend to believe that the U.S. is a failed (or failing) nation... a problem that ultimately goes back to a flawed Constitution, one which created the Senate, one which created self-governing states, and one which is simply too hard to change. |
#24
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On Tuesday, March 5, 2019 at 1:40:31 PM UTC-7, Gary Harnagel wrote:
So diversity isn't the great thing it's cracked up to be? I guess not when the diversity is in degree of effort. That's true, but I don't think I made myself clear enough. Welfare measures are less popular in those countries where, due to diversity, there is a _perceived_ difference in degree of effort, even if it isn't real. John Savard |
#25
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On 06/03/2019 01:04, Chris L Peterson wrote:
On Tue, 05 Mar 2019 18:10:23 -0500, Davoud wrote: Chris L Peterson: In the end, it probably comes down to our sense of fairness, and our sense of common identity. I have not traditionally been a pessimist, but I am coming to believe that our sense of fairness and our sense of common identity have been shattered. When disparities grow too large, we end up with class struggles and a society with subcultures where there is no common identity. Likewise, I fear that we have already reached that situation. I think that if the U.S.A. is not a failed state it is on its way to becoming one. Roughly half the country loathes the beliefs of the other half and it seems the two halves share little or no social common ground, no compatible hopes for the country's future. I can't see how the social and political aims of the two halves can be reconciled. I tend to believe that the U.S. is a failed (or failing) nation... a problem that ultimately goes back to a flawed Constitution, one which created the Senate, one which created self-governing states, and one which is simply too hard to change. I think it will become more sensible again once you have stopped electing deranged narcissistic reality TV stars as President. It is unclear what can be done to solve the US electoral system which basically requires obscene amounts of money just to be in the game. You have a de facto plutocracy with ugly populist tendencies that pretends superficially to be "democratic" but only when it suits them. -- Regards, Martin Brown |
#26
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On Wed, 6 Mar 2019 16:25:41 +0000, Martin Brown
wrote: I tend to believe that the U.S. is a failed (or failing) nation... a problem that ultimately goes back to a flawed Constitution, one which created the Senate, one which created self-governing states, and one which is simply too hard to change. I think it will become more sensible again once you have stopped electing deranged narcissistic reality TV stars as President. It is unclear what can be done to solve the US electoral system which basically requires obscene amounts of money just to be in the game. You have a de facto plutocracy with ugly populist tendencies that pretends superficially to be "democratic" but only when it suits them. I hope you're right, but I'm not optimistic. The fundamental structural flaw of states and states' rights is probably unfixable. And that leads to so many inequalities, which leads to so much social damage. And it makes addressing so many serious problems that other countries are finding ways of dealing with impossible in the U.S. |
#27
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Chris L Peterson:
I tend to believe that the U.S. is a failed (or failing) nation... a problem that ultimately goes back to a flawed Constitution, one which created the Senate, one which created self-governing states, and one which is simply too hard to change. Martin Brown: I think it will become more sensible again once you have stopped electing deranged narcissistic reality TV stars as President. Just to clarify: the American people chose Mrs. Clinton to be president by a majority of three million votes, but we have an uncorrectable defect in our Constitution that gave the presidency to the ****gibbon. It is unclear what can be done to solve the US electoral system which basically requires obscene amounts of money just to be in the game. You have a de facto plutocracy with ugly populist tendencies that pretends superficially to be "democratic" but only when it suits them. The answer is most likely that nothing can be done. As Mr. Peterson said, "failed (or failing) nation." It gives me no pleasure to note that you also live in a failed or failing state. No pleasure because it is my Motherland as well and I still have family there (Home Counties, Northumberland, Scotland). -- I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that you will say in your entire life. usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm |
#28
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On 07/03/2019 17:49, Davoud wrote:
Chris L Peterson: I tend to believe that the U.S. is a failed (or failing) nation... a problem that ultimately goes back to a flawed Constitution, one which created the Senate, one which created self-governing states, and one which is simply too hard to change. Martin Brown: I think it will become more sensible again once you have stopped electing deranged narcissistic reality TV stars as President. Just to clarify: the American people chose Mrs. Clinton to be president by a majority of three million votes, but we have an uncorrectable defect in our Constitution that gave the presidency to the ****gibbon. It is unclear what can be done to solve the US electoral system which basically requires obscene amounts of money just to be in the game. You have a de facto plutocracy with ugly populist tendencies that pretends superficially to be "democratic" but only when it suits them. The answer is most likely that nothing can be done. As Mr. Peterson said, "failed (or failing) nation." It gives me no pleasure to note that you also live in a failed or failing state. No pleasure because it is my Motherland as well and I still have family there (Home Counties, Northumberland, Scotland). It hasn't failed yet although time is running out and the Brexit clock is still ticking. I'll let you know what it is like post 29/3 11pm. My guess is that there will be food shortages and total road gridlock in the region around Dover and the Channel ports. I gather Failing Grayling has become something of a US celebrity (but for all the wrong reasons). The contract he awarded to the British ferry company with no ferries and no track record of running any facilities really took the biscuit. But it was only the last in a long line of his truly unbelievable cock ups. -- Regards, Martin Brown |
#29
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On Thursday, March 7, 2019 at 5:50:02 PM UTC, Davoud wrote:
" It gives me no pleasure to note that you also live in a failed or failing state. No pleasure because it is my Motherland as well and I still have family there (Home Counties, Northumberland, Scotland). My word, I thought this guy was going to say Fatherland for a moment but that term was taken up by the National Socialists. The Brits have created quite a spectacle that belies the outward appearance of stability and civility but then again this is what happens when public schoolboys let their imagination run away with themselves as it did in late 17th century 'enlightenment' circles thereby destroying astronomy for a number of centuries. You have 17 million leave voters on the hook for an International peace agreement and they think it is an obstacle !. |
#30
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On Thursday, March 7, 2019 at 12:50:02 PM UTC-5, Davoud wrote:
Chris L Peterson: I tend to believe that the U.S. is a failed (or failing) nation... a problem that ultimately goes back to a flawed Constitution, one which created the Senate, one which created self-governing states, and one which is simply too hard to change. Martin Brown: I think it will become more sensible again once you have stopped electing deranged narcissistic reality TV stars as President. Just to clarify: the American people chose Mrs. Clinton to be president by a majority of three million votes, but we have an uncorrectable defect in our Constitution that gave the presidency to the ****gibbon. It is unclear what can be done to solve the US electoral system which basically requires obscene amounts of money just to be in the game. You have a de facto plutocracy with ugly populist tendencies that pretends superficially to be "democratic" but only when it suits them. The answer is most likely that nothing can be done. As Mr. Peterson said, "failed (or failing) nation." It gives me no pleasure to note that you also live in a failed or failing state. No pleasure because it is my Motherland as well and I still have family there (Home Counties, Northumberland, Scotland). The moron Da-void and idiot peterson fail to understand the system of checks and balances built into the Constitution, the Senate and the Electoral College being among those checks and balances. |
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