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  #11  
Old March 4th 19, 07:23 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Chris L Peterson
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On Mon, 04 Mar 2019 11:05:55 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
wrote:

In fact, economic disparity is the single greatest factor in all
those ills.

Because I could use a good laugh, do feel free to explain how
you're going eliminate, or even reduce, that disaprity without
redistributing wealth, which is to say, put a gun to rich people's
heads, take their stuff, and give it to poor people.


Very high taxes on the wealthy to support public services is not
wealth redistribution. Requiring corporations to maintain ratios
between minimum and maximum salaries is not wealth redistribution.
Taxing inheritance is not wealth redistribution.

(In any case, you totally misunderstood Gary's comment and my
response.)
  #12  
Old March 4th 19, 09:23 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Quadibloc
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On Sunday, March 3, 2019 at 4:37:42 PM UTC-7, Chris L Peterson wrote:
Wealth inequality and income inequality are, in themselves, at
the root of most social ills. Not being rich. Not being poor.


How can income inequality _in itself_ be a problem? Only being excessively poor is legitimately a problem; otherwise, you're legitimizing envy, it seems.

John Savard
  #13  
Old March 4th 19, 09:41 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Quadibloc
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On Sunday, March 3, 2019 at 4:28:27 PM UTC-7, Gary Harnagel wrote:

It takes poverty and a real or imagined
sense of inability to get ahead. Paying people an adequate wage
as Henry Ford did is indeed a good idea, but mandating wages by
fiat (without producing useful goods in return) is self-defeating.


It may be legitimate for a society to guarantee basic survival for those who
don't work. But that can't be a moral imperative, because through much of
history, people had to work twelve hour days to produce enough for their own
basic survival. Today, we're wealthier than that.

Beyond whatever is so cheap a society can afford to give it away, though, of
course people will be expected to be productive in return for a share of what is
in limited supply.

I believe that some of the things essential to human contentment are in limited
supply.

Thus, where I see there to be something our society could perhaps do on the
"social justice" front that it is not doing is... try to ensure that people have
the opportunity to do productive work.

An Einstein can be immensely productive with just a pencil and paper. Most of us
need more than that to work with.

Basically, I think that such confusing and mistaken ideas as the "labor theory of value" arose because capital is the Rodney Dangerfield of the factors of production - it gets no respect. At least from theoretical social reformers.

Land, resources, machinery, and so on: if there aren't enough of those, it's harder for people to produce useful things with their work. That is the fundamental physical limitation that causes unemployment and its problems; merely economic things, like a stock market crash, can indeed be waved away by government action.

John Savard
  #14  
Old March 4th 19, 09:45 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Quadibloc
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On Monday, March 4, 2019 at 12:30:16 PM UTC-7, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
Chris L Peterson wrote in
news
On Mon, 04 Mar 2019 11:05:55 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili
Kujisalimisha wrote:

In fact, economic disparity is the single greatest factor in
all those ills.

Because I could use a good laugh, do feel free to explain how
you're going eliminate, or even reduce, that disaprity without
redistributing wealth, which is to say, put a gun to rich
people's heads, take their stuff, and give it to poor people.


Very high taxes on the wealthy


That's redistribution of wealth, retard.

to support public services is not
wealth redistribution.


Yes, retard, it is.


Putting a gun to rich people's heads: check.

Taking their stuff: check.

Giving it to poor people: why, no. The money is being used for "public
services", so it's going to pay police officers' salaries, teachers' salaries,
to pave roads, and so on.

John Savard
  #15  
Old March 4th 19, 10:43 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
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Quadibloc wrote in
:

On Monday, March 4, 2019 at 12:30:16 PM UTC-7, Jibini Kula
Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
Chris L Peterson wrote in
news
On Mon, 04 Mar 2019 11:05:55 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili
Kujisalimisha wrote:

In fact, economic disparity is the single greatest factor
in all those ills.

Because I could use a good laugh, do feel free to explain how
you're going eliminate, or even reduce, that disaprity
without redistributing wealth, which is to say, put a gun to
rich people's heads, take their stuff, and give it to poor
people.

Very high taxes on the wealthy


That's redistribution of wealth, retard.

to support public services is not
wealth redistribution.


Yes, retard, it is.


Putting a gun to rich people's heads: check.

Taking their stuff: check.

Giving it to poor people: why, no. The money is being used for
"public services", so it's going to pay police officers'
salaries, teachers' salaries, to pave roads, and so on.

And without that money being paid to them, police officers,
teachers, road crews, and so on would be . . . poor.

Dumbass.

In the original discussion of the welfare system in the US, the
salaries of the government workers who would administer the program
were considered welfare benefits from the system, too. Apparently,
we have lost some vital element of basic human intelligence since
then.

--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

  #16  
Old March 4th 19, 10:44 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
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Posts: 331
Default Canada Joins Lunar Gateway

Quadibloc wrote in
:

On Sunday, March 3, 2019 at 4:37:42 PM UTC-7, Chris L Peterson
wrote:
Wealth inequality and income inequality are, in themselves, at
the root of most social ills. Not being rich. Not being poor.


How can income inequality _in itself_ be a problem? Only being
excessively poor is legitimately a problem; otherwise, you're
legitimizing envy, it seems.

Given that he appears to be the sort of loser who can't hold down a
job flipping burgers, I'd say that's *exactly* what he's doing.

--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

  #17  
Old March 4th 19, 11:07 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Chris L Peterson
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Posts: 10,007
Default Canada Joins Lunar Gateway

On Mon, 4 Mar 2019 13:23:45 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc
wrote:

On Sunday, March 3, 2019 at 4:37:42 PM UTC-7, Chris L Peterson wrote:
Wealth inequality and income inequality are, in themselves, at
the root of most social ills. Not being rich. Not being poor.


How can income inequality _in itself_ be a problem? Only being excessively poor is legitimately a problem; otherwise, you're legitimizing envy, it seems.


Well, that demands a lot more space than is reasonable here. Look at
the work of Wilkinson, Pickett, Stiglitz. The correlations between
income, and especially wealth, inequality are strong and extend to
virtually every social ill. (And it is seen over solid data extending
back over 250 years.) And there is a growing body of work by social
scientists and economists explaining the causative factors. And it
isn't being poor. Social problems are far more severe in rich nations
with large inequality than in poor ones that are more egalitarian.

In the end, it probably comes down to our sense of fairness, and our
sense of common identity. When disparities grow too large, we end up
with class struggles and a society with subcultures where there is no
common identity.
  #18  
Old March 5th 19, 11:32 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Martin Brown[_3_]
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On 04/03/2019 21:23, Quadibloc wrote:
On Sunday, March 3, 2019 at 4:37:42 PM UTC-7, Chris L Peterson
wrote:
Wealth inequality and income inequality are, in themselves, at the
root of most social ills. Not being rich. Not being poor.


How can income inequality _in itself_ be a problem? Only being
excessively poor is legitimately a problem; otherwise, you're
legitimizing envy, it seems.


Because the super rich can purchase the votes of politicians to rig the
game in their favour and against the very poorest in society. The USA
excels at this - just look at your huge election budgets. Money talks.

Japan is an example of a more harmonious society where income inequality
is very much less and almost everyone claims to be middle class.

UK has followed the US lead where CEO's on remuneration committees award
each other inflation busting pay rises every year irrespective of their
companies performance. Workers get a pittance by comparison and are
being left far behind after years of austerity. A few major shareholders
have started to complain but their objections are only advisory.

https://www.theguardian.com/business...not-going-away

It is called the Dudley paradox after the chairman of BP who got a
whopping 20% pay increase after presiding over their worst year ever. He
hit his personal targets even though the company was up **** creek.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ge-shareholder

Companies are being run to maximise the CEO's own income in the short
term rather than to maximise long term growth and profitability. It is
highlighted in aggressive accounting practices where targets can be
artificially met to pay out the big bonuses and auditors will sign it
off even when the company is about to go bust. Carillion is a prime
example. I doubt if anyone will be prosecuted for it

https://www.accountancyage.com/2018/...four-break-up/

UK SFO has proved singularly inept at prosecuting such cases.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown
  #19  
Old March 5th 19, 12:35 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Chris L Peterson
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Posts: 10,007
Default Canada Joins Lunar Gateway

On Tue, 5 Mar 2019 11:32:50 +0000, Martin Brown
wrote:

Japan is an example of a more harmonious society where income inequality
is very much less and almost everyone claims to be middle class.


Japan is an interesting case. Most western countries combat income
inequality with progressive taxes (and wealth inequality with
inheritance taxes). Japan deals with income inequality by having a
much flatter pay system. In most cases, a CEO doesn't make vastly more
money than a janitor at the same company.
  #20  
Old March 5th 19, 03:11 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Quadibloc
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Posts: 7,018
Default Canada Joins Lunar Gateway

On Monday, March 4, 2019 at 4:07:24 PM UTC-7, Chris L Peterson wrote:

Well, that demands a lot more space than is reasonable here. Look at
the work of Wilkinson, Pickett, Stiglitz. The correlations between
income, and especially wealth, inequality are strong and extend to
virtually every social ill. (And it is seen over solid data extending
back over 250 years.)


At this point, I was going to reply that a correlation, without a causative
mechanism, tends to be viewed as unsatisfying. But I see this was addressed.

And there is a growing body of work by social
scientists and economists explaining the causative factors. And it
isn't being poor. Social problems are far more severe in rich nations
with large inequality than in poor ones that are more egalitarian.


In the end, it probably comes down to our sense of fairness, and our
sense of common identity. When disparities grow too large, we end up
with class struggles and a society with subcultures where there is no
common identity.


Here, though, I would suggest that cause and effect are reversed.

A country like Sweden can have a very robust social safety net, because, until
quite recently, just about everyone there was a Swede. There wasn't some large
group of people in the country who were despised for being lazy, for not having
paid attention in school, and expecting the same rewards as those who are
diligent.

People will share with their brothers, but not with foreigners.

And thus the contention of Libertarians that the Right and the Left are both the
same thing, since both lead the way to more government control... among many
other things. People have an idea of fairness that includes equality - but it
also includes equality of effort. When you have diversity in a society, things
break down.

John Savard
 




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