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The First Known Interstellar Comet



 
 
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  #21  
Old October 29th 17, 09:42 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
palsing[_2_]
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Default The First Known Interstellar Comet

On Sunday, October 29, 2017 at 12:00:18 AM UTC-7, Gerald Kelleher wrote:
On Saturday, October 28, 2017 at 4:40:54 PM UTC+1, palsing wrote:
Like I said before, Gerald, it would a take years for you to un-learn the astronomy that you *think* you know now, for a vast majority of it is just plain wrong...


There is no wrong in the stars and for my part in the journey through life and with each cycle, the familiar changes are like old friends even without the motions behind those changes. In San Diego those changes are not as distinctive or dramatic as where I live but just for observing the celestial arena you certainly have the better location by far.

I left a perspective unexplained in the hope that you or someone really familiar with the scheme of left/right,evening/morning appearance that doesn't survive in an RA/Dec framework. This is the language of the new software which runs observations off the Earth's orbital motion alone instead of the restrictive celestial sphere convenience -

http://www.nakedeyeplanets.com/const...c-labelled.png


That's a fine chart, but these kinds of stellar maps are not limited to "new software", they have been around for a very long time. Here is one from 1835, for example...

http://www.mapsofantiquity.com/store...ges/CEL014.JPG

Your "left/right,evening/morning appearance" statement is also fine, when referencing those inferior planets with respect to the Sun. However, when observed with respect to the stars in the background, things are quite different. Here is another chart, taken from the same source as your own reference, which shows the motions of Venus, Mercury and Jupiter against those background stars...

http://www.nakedeyeplanets.com/venus-eve-2011-12.htm

.... and you can clearly see that during this time frame, that being from January to June, 2012, Mars makes a nice big loop, Jupiter no loop, and Venus a simple reversal, leading up to its solar transit in June of 2012... all WRT the background stars. Pretty cool, eh?

Also, this page is really cool...

http://www.nakedeyeplanets.com/movements.htm#movements

.... near the top of the page is n animation called "Dance of the Planets", which shows the motions of all the planets WRT the background stars from January 2000 to December 2015, you can see that mercury is really active in comarison the all the other planets... very, very interesting.

By the way, this entire website...

http://www.nakedeyeplanets.com

.... is just terrific, and I spent several hours there this morning learning all kinds of things that I didn't really know in depth. For example, I didn't really appreciate that the path of Venus, for example, as viewed from Earth (in these examples @ latitude 55° North, near your own), makes a variety of paths WRT the Sun over 5 synodic periods... go here...

http://www.nakedeyeplanets.com/venus...ons.htm#maxalt

.... and go almost to the bottom of the page, where you will find (5) consecutive graphics, with each showing a different visual path. the caption for these images says, in part... "Paths of Venus in the Evening Sky (30 mins after sunset) for each of the five evening apparitions in the Venus cycle, as seen by an observer at latitude 55° North."

Gerald, you should spend a few hours here yourself, this is terrific stuff! Thanks for leading me there... I'm going back right now.

\Paul A
  #22  
Old October 29th 17, 10:14 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Gerald Kelleher
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Default The First Known Interstellar Comet

On Sunday, October 29, 2017 at 8:42:11 PM UTC, palsing wrote:
On Sunday, October 29, 2017 at 12:00:18 AM UTC-7, Gerald Kelleher wrote:
On Saturday, October 28, 2017 at 4:40:54 PM UTC+1, palsing wrote:
Like I said before, Gerald, it would a take years for you to un-learn the astronomy that you *think* you know now, for a vast majority of it is just plain wrong...


There is no wrong in the stars and for my part in the journey through life and with each cycle, the familiar changes are like old friends even without the motions behind those changes. In San Diego those changes are not as distinctive or dramatic as where I live but just for observing the celestial arena you certainly have the better location by far.

I left a perspective unexplained in the hope that you or someone really familiar with the scheme of left/right,evening/morning appearance that doesn't survive in an RA/Dec framework. This is the language of the new software which runs observations off the Earth's orbital motion alone instead of the restrictive celestial sphere convenience -

http://www.nakedeyeplanets.com/const...c-labelled.png


That's a fine chart, but these kinds of stellar maps are not limited to "new software", they have been around for a very long time.


The chart and the software behind it is a celestial sphere contrivance and totally unlike the new software which will present a stationary/central Sun with everything moving left to right or right to left depending on what celestial object is being considered. For my part you are all welcome to your RA/Dec framework but it is a dead end and utterly devoid of modelling uses even if it is great for predicting events as dates within the calendar system.






  #23  
Old October 29th 17, 10:45 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
palsing[_2_]
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Default The First Known Interstellar Comet

On Sunday, October 29, 2017 at 2:14:04 PM UTC-7, Gerald Kelleher wrote:

The chart and the software behind it is a celestial sphere contrivance and totally unlike the new software which will present a stationary/central Sun with everything moving left to right or right to left depending on what celestial object is being considered. For my part you are all welcome to your RA/Dec framework but it is a dead end and utterly devoid of modelling uses even if it is great for predicting events as dates within the calendar system.


You mean... you're NOT going to spend time on that web page and learn something new? How sad...

  #24  
Old October 30th 17, 09:26 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Gerald Kelleher
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Default The First Known Interstellar Comet

On Sunday, October 29, 2017 at 9:45:09 PM UTC, palsing wrote:
On Sunday, October 29, 2017 at 2:14:04 PM UTC-7, Gerald Kelleher wrote:

The chart and the software behind it is a celestial sphere contrivance and totally unlike the new software which will present a stationary/central Sun with everything moving left to right or right to left depending on what celestial object is being considered. For my part you are all welcome to your RA/Dec framework but it is a dead end and utterly devoid of modelling uses even if it is great for predicting events as dates within the calendar system.


You mean... you're NOT going to spend time on that web page and learn something new? How sad...


A webpage where the Sun not only moves against the background stars but also moves North and South against the same stars !!!!. Despite your sadness, it may comes as no surprise that the new software program will keep the Sun central and stationary thereby allow people to make sense of the motions of faster moving planets (now a relative term). In some ways they already do this but only in brief glimpses -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdFrE7hWj0A

Jupiter moves from an evening appearance to a morning appearance as the faster motion of the Earth puts the planet from left to right of the central Sun along with the background stars (in the case of the graphic, ElNath, Castor and Pollucx ) however Jupiter will never pass in front of the Sun as Venus and Mercury are seen to do. Not only will Venus and Mercury show phase changes but also size increases/decreases as they approach and recede from the Earth's wider orbital circumference and position.

Showing me manic descriptions of the Sun and planets against the background stars contrasts with the graceful motions that comprise the solar system structure so don't be sad for me.







  #25  
Old October 30th 17, 10:48 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Mike Collins[_4_]
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Posts: 2,824
Default The First Known Interstellar Comet

Gerald Kelleher wrote:
On Sunday, October 29, 2017 at 9:45:09 PM UTC, palsing wrote:
On Sunday, October 29, 2017 at 2:14:04 PM UTC-7, Gerald Kelleher wrote:

The chart and the software behind it is a celestial sphere contrivance
and totally unlike the new software which will present a
stationary/central Sun with everything moving left to right or right to
left depending on what celestial object is being considered. For my
part you are all welcome to your RA/Dec framework but it is a dead end
and utterly devoid of modelling uses even if it is great for predicting
events as dates within the calendar system.


You mean... you're NOT going to spend time on that web page and learn
something new? How sad...


A webpage where the Sun not only moves against the background stars but
also moves North and South against the same stars !!!!. Despite your
sadness, it may comes as no surprise that the new software program will
keep the Sun central and stationary thereby allow people to make sense of
the motions of faster moving planets (now a relative term). In some ways
they already do this but only in brief glimpses -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdFrE7hWj0A

Jupiter moves from an evening appearance to a morning appearance as the
faster motion of the Earth puts the planet from left to right of the
central Sun along with the background stars (in the case of the graphic,
ElNath, Castor and Pollucx ) however Jupiter will never pass in front of
the Sun as Venus and Mercury are seen to do. Not only will Venus and
Mercury show phase changes but also size increases/decreases as they
approach and recede from the Earth's wider orbital circumference and position.

Showing me manic descriptions of the Sun and planets against the
background stars contrasts with the graceful motions that comprise the
solar system structure so don't be sad for me.

You are so egocentric- in the sense of homocentric but even more. Left and
right? In the Southern Hemisphere it’s the other way round.



  #26  
Old October 30th 17, 12:31 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Gerald Kelleher
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Posts: 1,551
Default The First Known Interstellar Comet

On Monday, October 30, 2017 at 9:48:32 AM UTC, Mike Collins wrote:
Gerald Kelleher wrote:
On Sunday, October 29, 2017 at 9:45:09 PM UTC, palsing wrote:
On Sunday, October 29, 2017 at 2:14:04 PM UTC-7, Gerald Kelleher wrote:

The chart and the software behind it is a celestial sphere contrivance
and totally unlike the new software which will present a
stationary/central Sun with everything moving left to right or right to
left depending on what celestial object is being considered. For my
part you are all welcome to your RA/Dec framework but it is a dead end
and utterly devoid of modelling uses even if it is great for predicting
events as dates within the calendar system.

You mean... you're NOT going to spend time on that web page and learn
something new? How sad...


A webpage where the Sun not only moves against the background stars but
also moves North and South against the same stars !!!!. Despite your
sadness, it may comes as no surprise that the new software program will
keep the Sun central and stationary thereby allow people to make sense of
the motions of faster moving planets (now a relative term). In some ways
they already do this but only in brief glimpses -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdFrE7hWj0A

Jupiter moves from an evening appearance to a morning appearance as the
faster motion of the Earth puts the planet from left to right of the
central Sun along with the background stars (in the case of the graphic,
ElNath, Castor and Pollucx ) however Jupiter will never pass in front of
the Sun as Venus and Mercury are seen to do. Not only will Venus and
Mercury show phase changes but also size increases/decreases as they
approach and recede from the Earth's wider orbital circumference and position.

Showing me manic descriptions of the Sun and planets against the
background stars contrasts with the graceful motions that comprise the
solar system structure so don't be sad for me.

You are so egocentric- in the sense of homocentric but even more. Left and
right? In the Southern Hemisphere it’s the other way round.


You haven't thought things through but then again when did you ever. In the matter of Venus,the left of the Sun is an evening appearance in both hemispheres and the right of the Sun is a morning appearance in both hemispheres as judgments are made from the orbital motion of the Earth, the orbital motion of Venus and the central Sun.

http://www.popastro.com/images/plane...ary%202012.jpg

The direction of the Earth's orbital motion is from left to right or counter-clockwise as determined by the annual motion of the stars from left to right of the Sun or alternatively from an evening to a morning appearance -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeQwYrfmvoQ


Don't bring a knife to a gunfight Collins. You are welcome to enjoy your homocentric view with your two sticks, a watch and then concluding this is a great way to link daily rotation directly to a whirling sphere of stars but then you lose the ability to model solar system structure and the relative perspectives seen from Earth or from the other planets. Try it yourself, place two sticks in any direction and you will get the same homocentric conclusion but what makes you crowd really, really dumb is that once you recognize RA/Dec as a predictive convenience and not for modelling then you can go your merry way. It is not just about being right but the ability to enjoy astronomy and none of you seem to do that. Maybe you are like the noisebox just looking for attention but I know you can't promote your homocentric views in general or in detail while I now couldn't care less.



  #27  
Old October 30th 17, 05:49 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
palsing[_2_]
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Posts: 3,068
Default The First Known Interstellar Comet

Gerald wrote;

A webpage where the Sun not only moves against the background stars but also moves North and South against the same stars !!


So, where you live, the Sun does not get really high in the sky in the summer and really low in the sky in the winter? You know, with apparent motion to the north and then with apparent motion to the south? Perhaps you simple haven't noticed...

Like I said, Gerald, it will take years for you to unlearn what you think you know about astronomy... which is essentially nothing right now.
  #28  
Old October 30th 17, 08:13 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Gerald Kelleher
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Posts: 1,551
Default The First Known Interstellar Comet

On Monday, October 30, 2017 at 4:49:07 PM UTC, palsing wrote:
Gerald wrote;

A webpage where the Sun not only moves against the background stars but also moves North and South against the same stars !!


So, where you live, the Sun does not get really high in the sky in the summer and really low in the sky in the winter? You know, with apparent motion to the north and then with apparent motion to the south? Perhaps you simple haven't noticed...

Like I said, Gerald, it will take years for you to unlearn what you think you know about astronomy... which is essentially nothing right now.


I like that you don't demonstrate the slightest indication of perceiving a stationary and central Sun so the slogan chanting and stock phrases directed at me are quaint but unnecessary. You are entirely comfortable with a celestial sphere and the motion of the Sun North and South of a benchmark celestial equator but that doesn't make you part of either geocentric or the Sun centered astronomy which discriminated between the planets and the Sun by the motion through the background field of stars -

"Moreover, we see the other five planets also retrograde at times, and
stationary at either end [of the regression]. And whereas the sun
always advances along its own direct path, they wander in various
ways, straying sometimes to the south and sometimes to the north; that
is why they are called "planets" [wanderers]. Copernicus

The new software will be entirely different than even this conception in removing the last vestiges of geocentricity to which the first Sun centered astronomers were chained.



  #29  
Old October 31st 17, 01:53 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
palsing[_2_]
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Posts: 3,068
Default The First Known Interstellar Comet

On Monday, October 30, 2017 at 12:13:44 PM UTC-7, Gerald Kelleher wrote:

The new software will be entirely different than even this conception in removing the last vestiges of geocentricity to which the first Sun centered astronomers were chained.


Just what 'new software' are you talking about here? Something created in you over-fertile imagination, I suppose...

  #30  
Old October 31st 17, 11:54 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Mike Collins[_4_]
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Posts: 2,824
Default The First Known Interstellar Comet

Gerald Kelleher wrote:
On Monday, October 30, 2017 at 9:48:32 AM UTC, Mike Collins wrote:
Gerald Kelleher wrote:
On Sunday, October 29, 2017 at 9:45:09 PM UTC, palsing wrote:
On Sunday, October 29, 2017 at 2:14:04 PM UTC-7, Gerald Kelleher wrote:

The chart and the software behind it is a celestial sphere contrivance
and totally unlike the new software which will present a
stationary/central Sun with everything moving left to right or right to
left depending on what celestial object is being considered. For my
part you are all welcome to your RA/Dec framework but it is a dead end
and utterly devoid of modelling uses even if it is great for predicting
events as dates within the calendar system.

You mean... you're NOT going to spend time on that web page and learn
something new? How sad...

A webpage where the Sun not only moves against the background stars but
also moves North and South against the same stars !!!!. Despite your
sadness, it may comes as no surprise that the new software program will
keep the Sun central and stationary thereby allow people to make sense of
the motions of faster moving planets (now a relative term). In some ways
they already do this but only in brief glimpses -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdFrE7hWj0A

Jupiter moves from an evening appearance to a morning appearance as the
faster motion of the Earth puts the planet from left to right of the
central Sun along with the background stars (in the case of the graphic,
ElNath, Castor and Pollucx ) however Jupiter will never pass in front of
the Sun as Venus and Mercury are seen to do. Not only will Venus and
Mercury show phase changes but also size increases/decreases as they
approach and recede from the Earth's wider orbital circumference and position.

Showing me manic descriptions of the Sun and planets against the
background stars contrasts with the graceful motions that comprise the
solar system structure so don't be sad for me.

You are so egocentric- in the sense of homocentric but even more. Left and
right? In the Southern Hemisphere it’s the other way round.


You haven't thought things through but then again when did you ever. In
the matter of Venus,the left of the Sun is an evening appearance in both
hemispheres and the right of the Sun is a morning appearance in both
hemispheres as judgments are made from the orbital motion of the Earth,
the orbital motion of Venus and the central Sun.

http://www.popastro.com/images/plane...ary%202012.jpg

The direction of the Earth's orbital motion is from left to right or
counter-clockwise as determined by the annual motion of the stars from
left to right of the Sun or alternatively from an evening to a morning appearance -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeQwYrfmvoQ


Don't bring a knife to a gunfight Collins. You are welcome to enjoy your
homocentric view with your two sticks, a watch and then concluding this
is a great way to link daily rotation directly to a whirling sphere of
stars but then you lose the ability to model solar system structure and
the relative perspectives seen from Earth or from the other planets. Try
it yourself, place two sticks in any direction and you will get the same
homocentric conclusion but what makes you crowd really, really dumb is
that once you recognize RA/Dec as a predictive convenience and not for
modelling then you can go your merry way. It is not just about being
right but the ability to enjoy astronomy and none of you seem to do that.
Maybe you are like the noisebox just looking for attention but I know you
can't promote your homocentric views in general or in detail while I now
couldn't care less.





In the Northern Hemisphere the Sun and planets appear to rise in the east
and move clockwise across the southern sky setting in the west. This is how
dawn looks in Great Yarmouth on November 1st 2017.



https://www.flickr.com/x/t/0090009/p...8/38021658066/


In the Southern Hemisphere the Sun and planets appear to rise in the east
and move anti-clockwise across the Northern sky setting in the West. This
is how dawn looks in Capetown on November 1st 2017.


https://www.flickr.com/x/t/0090009/p...8/38021655906/

 




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