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Space first stage recovery.



 
 
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  #1  
Old December 28th 15, 02:25 AM posted to sci.space.policy
Alain Fournier[_3_]
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Posts: 548
Default Space first stage recovery.


I was really thrilled by the recovery of the Falcon 9 first stage last
week. I thought it was the most exciting launch since the first launch
of the Space Shuttle Columbia. At the time, I believed NASA which was
saying that after an initial development period, the Shuttle program
would launch a space ship about once a week. Lots of things would of
been different if the Shuttle could have been launched affordably once a
week.

Now back to SpaceX. Does anyone know what is SpaceX's game plan with a
recoverable first stage? They can just keep on as is and increase their
profit margin. Or they can try to get more customers by lowering their
price. They can also improve their rocket by tearing down the recovered
first stage and scanning the pieces to figure out which need to be
stronger which could be lighter or what not, that, at least in the short
term, probably increases their costs per flight instead of lowering it.
I suspect they will do a little bit of each of the above. But does
anyone have clues of what they are doing? Is there any sign that they
are offering flights for less than before?


Alain Fournier
  #2  
Old December 28th 15, 03:10 AM posted to sci.space.policy
Bob Haller
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Posts: 3,197
Default Space first stage recovery.

On Sunday, December 27, 2015 at 8:26:02 PM UTC-5, Alain Fournier wrote:
I was really thrilled by the recovery of the Falcon 9 first stage last
week. I thought it was the most exciting launch since the first launch
of the Space Shuttle Columbia. At the time, I believed NASA which was
saying that after an initial development period, the Shuttle program
would launch a space ship about once a week. Lots of things would of
been different if the Shuttle could have been launched affordably once a
week.

Now back to SpaceX. Does anyone know what is SpaceX's game plan with a
recoverable first stage? They can just keep on as is and increase their
profit margin. Or they can try to get more customers by lowering their
price. They can also improve their rocket by tearing down the recovered
first stage and scanning the pieces to figure out which need to be
stronger which could be lighter or what not, that, at least in the short
term, probably increases their costs per flight instead of lowering it.
I suspect they will do a little bit of each of the above. But does
anyone have clues of what they are doing? Is there any sign that they
are offering flights for less than before?


Alain Fournier


elon musk has said he not only wants to go to mars, but start a settlement there.

given his big plans, i believe they will try to drive the price down, and whats his current price cut? its a lot

I ant to see what space x does to develop a fast transit to mars system.

cutting travel time from 6 or 7 months, tom 6 weeks will make mars so much more doable
  #3  
Old December 28th 15, 06:42 PM posted to sci.space.policy
David Spain
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Posts: 2,901
Default Space first stage recovery.

On 12/27/2015 8:25 PM, Alain Fournier wrote:

I was really thrilled by the recovery of the Falcon 9 first stage last
week. I thought it was the most exciting launch since the first launch
of the Space Shuttle Columbia.


I was AT the Columbia launch and witnessed it first hand. For me, this
was every bit as exciting, perhaps even more so. But the suspense was
not as long, because at the time of Columbia there was a real concern
about the adhesive used for the tiles and whether it was up to the task.
I remember hearing back then a lot of talk about the "zipper effect"
that might doom the shuttle. Quite a contrast from then 1980 to 2003.

Dave



  #4  
Old December 29th 15, 01:02 PM posted to sci.space.policy
Jeff Findley[_6_]
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Posts: 2,307
Default Space first stage recovery.

In article , says...

On 12/27/2015 8:25 PM, Alain Fournier wrote:

I was really thrilled by the recovery of the Falcon 9 first stage last
week. I thought it was the most exciting launch since the first launch
of the Space Shuttle Columbia.


I was AT the Columbia launch and witnessed it first hand. For me, this
was every bit as exciting, perhaps even more so. But the suspense was
not as long, because at the time of Columbia there was a real concern
about the adhesive used for the tiles and whether it was up to the task.
I remember hearing back then a lot of talk about the "zipper effect"
that might doom the shuttle. Quite a contrast from then 1980 to 2003.


With the shuttle, NASA designed the thing to only fly with people on
board, so its first test flight was manned by Crippen and Young (if
memory serves). With Orion, it looks like we'll get a couple of
unmanned test flights (including the development flight that was on
Delta IV).

Jeff
--
"the perennial claim that hypersonic airbreathing propulsion would
magically make space launch cheaper is nonsense -- LOX is much cheaper
than advanced airbreathing engines, and so are the tanks to put it in
and the extra thrust to carry it." - Henry Spencer
  #5  
Old December 30th 15, 01:46 AM posted to sci.space.policy
Sylvia Else
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Posts: 1,063
Default Space first stage recovery.

On 28/12/2015 1:10 PM, bob haller wrote:
On Sunday, December 27, 2015 at 8:26:02 PM UTC-5, Alain Fournier wrote:
I was really thrilled by the recovery of the Falcon 9 first stage last
week. I thought it was the most exciting launch since the first launch
of the Space Shuttle Columbia. At the time, I believed NASA which was
saying that after an initial development period, the Shuttle program
would launch a space ship about once a week. Lots of things would of
been different if the Shuttle could have been launched affordably once a
week.

Now back to SpaceX. Does anyone know what is SpaceX's game plan with a
recoverable first stage? They can just keep on as is and increase their
profit margin. Or they can try to get more customers by lowering their
price. They can also improve their rocket by tearing down the recovered
first stage and scanning the pieces to figure out which need to be
stronger which could be lighter or what not, that, at least in the short
term, probably increases their costs per flight instead of lowering it.
I suspect they will do a little bit of each of the above. But does
anyone have clues of what they are doing? Is there any sign that they
are offering flights for less than before?


Alain Fournier


elon musk has said he not only wants to go to mars, but start a settlement there.

given his big plans, i believe they will try to drive the price down, and whats his current price cut? its a lot

I ant to see what space x does to develop a fast transit to mars system.

cutting travel time from 6 or 7 months, tom 6 weeks will make mars so much more doable

Getting there in 6 weeks requires a huge delta-V - twice, and twice more
to get back in the same time. I don't see this coming about through
incremental improvements in existing rocket designs.

Sylvia.
  #6  
Old December 30th 15, 12:00 PM posted to sci.space.policy
Sylvia Else
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,063
Default Space first stage recovery.

On 30/12/2015 12:42 PM, JF Mezei wrote:
On 2015-12-29 19:46, Sylvia Else wrote:

Getting there in 6 weeks requires a huge delta-V - twice, and twice more
to get back in the same time. I don't see this coming about through
incremental improvements in existing rocket designs.


Problem easily solved...

You get SLS into mass production in China. Mass production and China
should lower costs.


Second, you use an SLS to launch an SLS into Orbit.
You use 4 SLS launches to haul fuel for that first SLS.

So 5 SLS launches to get 1 SLS in orbit fully fueled with Orion at the
top, ready to GOTO (not GOSUB) Mars lickety split.


One SLS won't get an Orion to Mars in 6 weeks, even starting from Earth
orbit. Further, you need to slow down before arriving at Mars (and no,
aero-braking won't work at these speeds).

Even if one SLS were up to the task of slowing down the Orion at Mars,
you're now talking about getting an entire SLS there. How many SLSs
would be required to do that from Earth?

Now remember that you need to get the crew back in the same time. Pretty
much, that means that however many SLSs you thought you needed from
Earth now has to be placed into Orbit around Mars. To do that, you now
need to square you previous number.

Oh, no doubt it's technically possible, you just keep staging 'til it
works. But the cost, even from China...

Sylvia.

  #7  
Old December 30th 15, 02:52 PM posted to sci.space.policy
Jeff Findley[_6_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,307
Default Space first stage recovery.

In article . com,
says...

On 2015-12-29 07:02, Jeff Findley wrote:

With the shuttle, NASA designed the thing to only fly with people on
board, so its first test flight was manned by Crippen and Young (if
memory serves). With Orion, it looks like we'll get a couple of
unmanned test flights (including the development flight that was on
Delta IV).



Until there is a functional service module, is there a point in putting
humans in a "throw the ball up and watch it fall" tests ?


The service module test article, provided by ESA, is at NASA's huge
vacuum testing facility (here in Ohio) right now. I'm sure it shares a
lot of hardware heritage with ATV.

Orion itself can't go to orbit until there is a de-orbit engine
attached, right ? And that requires functional service module, right ?


SLS is still two to three years away from first flight. NASA says "No
later than November 2018", but in my book it's more like no earlier than
November 2018 given how slowly the program has progressed over the
years.

The service module will no doubt be ready for its first test flight by
the SLS first flight.

Jeff
--
"the perennial claim that hypersonic airbreathing propulsion would
magically make space launch cheaper is nonsense -- LOX is much cheaper
than advanced airbreathing engines, and so are the tanks to put it in
and the extra thrust to carry it." - Henry Spencer
  #9  
Old December 30th 15, 05:58 PM posted to sci.space.policy
Bob Haller
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,197
Default Space first stage recovery.

On Wednesday, December 30, 2015 at 8:54:05 AM UTC-5, Jeff Findley wrote:
In article ,
ess says...

On 28/12/2015 1:10 PM, bob haller wrote:

elon musk has said he not only wants to go to mars, but start a settlement there.

given his big plans, i believe they will try to drive the price down, and whats his current price cut? its a lot

I ant to see what space x does to develop a fast transit to mars system.

cutting travel time from 6 or 7 months, tom 6 weeks will make mars so much more doable


Getting there in 6 weeks requires a huge delta-V - twice, and twice more
to get back in the same time. I don't see this coming about through
incremental improvements in existing rocket designs.


Do remember this is Bob. He has nothing to back up the above assertions
and hand waving. He just thinks Musk can do better than NASA and
guesses at numbers.

Jeff
--


well space X has cut the cost of cargo to orbit substantilly. and elon wants to go to mars in his lifetime

and the proposed vasmir engine can cut the cost and flying time to mars.

it would accelerate 12 half way to mars, then turn around and decelerate the other half of the flight.

now lets compare space x with SLS orion, at one3 billion per flight, not including payload....
  #10  
Old January 1st 16, 07:44 PM posted to sci.space.policy
Jeff Findley[_6_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,307
Default Space first stage recovery.

In article om,
says...

On 2015-12-30 08:52, Jeff Findley wrote:

The service module test article, provided by ESA, is at NASA's huge
vacuum testing facility (here in Ohio) right now.


Is that a fully functional one ? I read somewhere that the first service
module is basically a mockup with limited functionality to test the
mounting on rocket etc.


It's a structural test article. But as I said, I believe that ESA's
flight proven ATV (ISS cargo delivery vehicle) is the basis for the
Orion service module, so it's not like ESA is creating something
completely new.

The service module will no doubt be ready for its first test flight by
the SLS first flight.



So if Service Module is critical to ensuring re-entry after orbital
insertion, would they send a crewed Orion atop the first service module
flight ?


No, the first flight for the service module will be the unmanned. This
will be the second Orion flight (if you count the test flight that flew
on Delta Heavy as the first) and the first SLS flight (with an interim
upper stage based on Centaur).

With a limited number of available refurb shuttle engines, they can't
afford to have too many test flights if they wat to have at least one
crewed flight before they run out of engines.


They plan on making more engines. A cost reduced version of the SSME
which is more suitable for an expendable launch vehicle than the
original (presumably more expensive to manufacture) SSME.

Jeff
--
"the perennial claim that hypersonic airbreathing propulsion would
magically make space launch cheaper is nonsense -- LOX is much cheaper
than advanced airbreathing engines, and so are the tanks to put it in
and the extra thrust to carry it." - Henry Spencer
 




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