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What the direct/retrograde motion of Venus looks like



 
 
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  #11  
Old January 7th 18, 10:19 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Gerald Kelleher
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Default What the direct/retrograde motion of Venus looks like

The new approach and insight in respect to the faster Venus and Mercury requires a really different perspective than the slower moving planets. One of the main adjustments puts the Earth's daily rotation at the service for telling what objects are to the left or right of the Sun.

After the observer has turned through the circle of illumination and the Sun is out of view, they see planets and stars to the left of the Sun whereas before they turn back through the circle of illumination at dawn, all celestial objects are to the right of the Sun. It is then easy to identify the beginning and end of an evening appearance of Venus (left) and the beginning and end of a morning appearance (right).

http://www.popastro.com/images/plane...ary%202012.jpg

Once this principle is adapted and to a large extent it really is,it is easy enough to apply the same principle to the Earth's orbital motion and setting up the Sun as a central reference for the transition of the stars from an evening to a morning appearance.

These things tell people about themselves so when they are faced with something beautiful and enchanting they discover whether they can be inspired and inspiring.

  #12  
Old January 7th 18, 04:05 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
palsing[_2_]
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Default What the direct/retrograde motion of Venus looks like

Gerald wrote... are just

"The new approach and insight in respect to the faster Venus and Mercury requires a really different perspective than the slower moving planets..."

No, it doesn't, this entire concept has been understood for a very, very long time now. Just because it is new to 'you' does not mean that the scientific community needs to catch up. That fact of the matter is, you don't *really* understand as much as you claim because you only refer to the motion of the inferior planets WRT to the Sun, and never WRT the background stars, where both inferior planets make the same loops against the stars as the superior planets that are so well documented. The actual paths of the inferior planets have been presented to you many times but you have always rejected them for some goofy reason. These inside loops are just as easy to understand as the outside loops for most of us, with you being the exception.
  #13  
Old January 7th 18, 05:18 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Gerald Kelleher
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Default What the direct/retrograde motion of Venus looks like

On Sunday, January 7, 2018 at 3:05:06 PM UTC, palsing wrote:
Gerald wrote... are just

"The new approach and insight in respect to the faster Venus and Mercury requires a really different perspective than the slower moving planets..."

That fact of the matter is, you don't *really* understand as much as you claim because you only refer to the motion of the inferior planets WRT to the Sun, and never WRT the background stars, where both inferior planets make the same loops against the stars as the superior planets that are so well documented.


Venus moves faster than the Earth while Mars moves slower so there are only the perspectives which account for the Earth's orbital motion as much as it does those planets.

http://www.popastro.com/images/plane...ary%202012.jpg

The actual loop of Venus around the Sun is accompanied by phases changes and size increases denoting the Earth is not central to the solar system but the transitional changes of the stars from evening to morning appearances neatly fits in with the same transitional appearances of Venus as it alternatively moves from left to right of the Sun and visa versa.

The direct/retrograde loops of the slower moving planets are an illusion while the direct/retrograde loops of faster moving planets are actual as demonstrated by many astrophotographers.

Maybe some citizen scientists in NASA or in some school or college will help get the partitioning of direct/retrogrades up and running otherwise they are delinquents.

  #14  
Old January 7th 18, 08:03 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
palsing[_2_]
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Default What the direct/retrograde motion of Venus looks like

On Sunday, January 7, 2018 at 8:18:40 AM UTC-8, Gerald Kelleher wrote:

The actual loop of Venus around the Sun is accompanied by phases changes and size increases...


Yes, but this is WRT the Sun, and there is nothing wrong with that... but this is NOT the retrograde motion that you think it is. Remember that 'retrograde' refers to the planets' apparent motion WRT the background stars, not the Sun. It is almost impossible to actually watch the inferior planets move backwards WRT the stars because it all happens very close to the Sun, wjich pretty much wipes out all but the brightest stars in that area, but that does not mean they we cannot calculate these planets' positions. See these...

http://www.nakedeyeplanets.com/mercu...r-oct-2023.png

http://www.nakedeyeplanets.com/mercu...b-may-2012.png

.... for a depiction of Mercury's path among the stars, understanding that Venus moves against the stars in a similar manner. Check out the animation near the top of the [age, here...

http://www.nakedeyeplanets.com/movements.htm

.... to see the loops and zig-zags of all the planets' movements over 5 years, from 2000 through 2005.

  #15  
Old January 7th 18, 09:26 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Gerald Kelleher
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Default What the direct/retrograde motion of Venus looks like

On Sunday, January 7, 2018 at 7:03:42 PM UTC, palsing wrote:
On Sunday, January 7, 2018 at 8:18:40 AM UTC-8, Gerald Kelleher wrote:

The actual loop of Venus around the Sun is accompanied by phases changes and size increases...


Yes, but this is WRT the Sun, and there is nothing wrong with that... but this is NOT the retrograde motion that you think it is. Remember that 'retrograde' refers to the planets' apparent motion WRT the background stars, not the Sun.


You are just being silly, we see Venus move around the Sun in a closed loop so when Venus moves from right to left and behind the Sun it is moving against the background stars but as it swings in front of the Sun from its widest point it changes direction to the background stars -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdFrE7hWj0A

Now stop with the RA/Dec trash as this is all tied up to a 100% certainty. The faster planets Venus and Mercury run a loop around the Sun so the Earth's orbital input is found in the transition of the background stars from an evening to morning appearance thereby setting the Sun up as a central and stationary reference.

There are really no astronomers ,after all, if people can't distinguish the illusory looping motions of the slower moving planets from the actual loops of the faster moving Venus and Mercury then they don't deserve the title whether they consider themselves amateur and otherwise.

Anyone else want to reveal how dull they are by challenging how direct/retrograde observations are partitioned by perspective depending on whether the planet is further our or nearer the Sun ?.





  #16  
Old January 7th 18, 10:20 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Anders Eklöf
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Default What the direct/retrograde motion of Venus looks like

Gerald Kelleher wrote:


http://www.popastro.com/images/plane...July%202010-Ja
nuary%202012.jpg

The dovetailing between orbital perspectives and timekeeping and
specifically proof of the Earth's annual circuit of the Sun is founded on
the transition from an evening to a morning appearance of the stars close
to the orbital plane or the faster moving Venus and Mercury.

I cannot imagine any adult being unable to make the call on the transition
of the stars from an evening to morning appearance due solely to the
orbital motion of the Earth. As a location passes through the circle of
illumination it sees all objects to the left of the Sun so that when an
observer continues to rotate they exit the circle of illumination and see
the stars and celestial objects to the right of the Sun.


This is utterly incomprehensible - and I seriously doubt it's because
English is my second language. If you can rephrase to readable English I
could possibly figure out if I agree with you. But I guess not.

"dovetailing"?
"circle of illumination"?
"direct/retrogrades resolution"?

My impression is the you are fighting windmills.
Which you construct yourself.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeQwYrfmvoQ&t=30s


How to ignore proof of the Earth's orbital motion while simultaneously
ignoring the direct/retrogrades resolution of the faster moving planets
along with phases/size increases is delinquency of the highest order in
astronomy or any other science.



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  #17  
Old January 7th 18, 10:50 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Gerald Kelleher
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Default What the direct/retrograde motion of Venus looks like

On Sunday, January 7, 2018 at 9:20:29 PM UTC, Anders Eklöf wrote:
Gerald Kelleher wrote:


http://www.popastro.com/images/plane...July%202010-Ja
nuary%202012.jpg

The dovetailing between orbital perspectives and timekeeping and
specifically proof of the Earth's annual circuit of the Sun is founded on
the transition from an evening to a morning appearance of the stars close
to the orbital plane or the faster moving Venus and Mercury.

I cannot imagine any adult being unable to make the call on the transition
of the stars from an evening to morning appearance due solely to the
orbital motion of the Earth. As a location passes through the circle of
illumination it sees all objects to the left of the Sun so that when an
observer continues to rotate they exit the circle of illumination and see
the stars and celestial objects to the right of the Sun.


This is utterly incomprehensible - and I seriously doubt it's because
English is my second language. If you can rephrase to readable English I
could possibly figure out if I agree with you. But I guess not.

"dovetailing"?
"circle of illumination"?
"direct/retrogrades resolution"?



Here, let me help you with the English language -

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=dovetailing

Let me help you also with the circle of illumination representing the circle at right angles to the orbital plane


http://lmgtfy.com/?q=circle+of+illumination

Direct/retrograde motions are for astronomers who can now distinguish how we see the faster moving planets from the slower moving planets as seen from a moving Earth.


Illusory open-ended loops of the slower planets where the Sun is never the center of the loop -

https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap120809.html

Actual loop of the faster planets where the Sun is always at the center -

http://www.popastro.com/images/plane...ary%202012.jpg

Any more dull people who need English or astronomical lessons ?.







  #18  
Old January 8th 18, 10:11 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Gerald Kelleher
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Default What the direct/retrograde motion of Venus looks like

Credit due to Alsing once the usual vapid stock phrases directed at me are bypassed,over the years he brought up all the objections possible required to put the partitioning of direct/retrogrades between faster and slower moving planets on to a solid conceptual footing.

Ultimately it is what people gain when they look out at the planets and how they relate to the moving Earth, the central Sun or to each other - an expansive astronomical viewpoint aided by magnification and computer imaging.



  #19  
Old January 13th 18, 04:11 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Gerald Kelleher
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Posts: 1,551
Default What the direct/retrograde motion of Venus looks like

On Sunday, January 7, 2018 at 7:03:42 PM UTC, palsing wrote:
On Sunday, January 7, 2018 at 8:18:40 AM UTC-8, Gerald Kelleher wrote:

The actual loop of Venus around the Sun is accompanied by phases changes and size increases...


Yes, but this is WRT the Sun, and there is nothing wrong with that... but this is NOT the retrograde motion that you think it is. Remember that 'retrograde' refers to the planets' apparent motion WRT the background stars, not the Sun. It is almost impossible to actually watch the inferior planets move backwards WRT the stars because it all happens very close to the Sun, wjich pretty much wipes out all but the brightest stars in that area, but that does not mean they we cannot calculate these planets' positions. See these...

http://www.nakedeyeplanets.com/mercu...r-oct-2023.png

http://www.nakedeyeplanets.com/mercu...b-may-2012.png

... for a depiction of Mercury's path among the stars, understanding that Venus moves against the stars in a similar manner. Check out the animation near the top of the [age, here...

http://www.nakedeyeplanets.com/movements.htm

... to see the loops and zig-zags of all the planets' movements over 5 years, from 2000 through 2005.


I give you credit for your objections as they exist for you and everyone else here but there is no goodness in any of you when shown how the faster moving planets move to the central Sun and background stars.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdFrE7hWj0A

I have to shake my head sometimes as astrophotographers catalogue the planetary loop of Venus as a matter of course -

http://www.popastro.com/images/plane...ary%202012.jpg


Not good people, not bad people - just dour and dull.




  #20  
Old January 14th 18, 09:45 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Anders Eklöf
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Posts: 100
Default What the direct/retrograde motion of Venus looks like

Gerald Kelleher wrote:

On Sunday, January 7, 2018 at 9:20:29 PM UTC, Anders Eklöf wrote:
Gerald Kelleher wrote:


http://www.popastro.com/images/plane...July%202010-Ja
nuary%202012.jpg

The dovetailing between orbital perspectives and timekeeping and
specifically proof of the Earth's annual circuit of the Sun is founded on
the transition from an evening to a morning appearance of the stars close
to the orbital plane or the faster moving Venus and Mercury.

I cannot imagine any adult being unable to make the call on the transition
of the stars from an evening to morning appearance due solely to the
orbital motion of the Earth. As a location passes through the circle of
illumination it sees all objects to the left of the Sun so that when an
observer continues to rotate they exit the circle of illumination and see
the stars and celestial objects to the right of the Sun.


This is utterly incomprehensible - and I seriously doubt it's because
English is my second language. If you can rephrase to readable English I
could possibly figure out if I agree with you. But I guess not.

"dovetailing"?
"circle of illumination"?
"direct/retrogrades resolution"?





Here, let me help you with the English language -

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=dovetailing


I know that, but i fail to see what that has to do with "orbital
perspectives and timekeeping " &c. And in this context.
Or is it just a figure of speech? That would elude me.


Let me help you also with the circle of illumination representing the
circle at right angles to the orbital plane

So instead of rephrasing you tell me how to use Google. Cute.
That's not patronizing at all.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=circle+of+illumination


OK. I should have figured that one out, but I still can't see what
you´re getting at. You are confusing the evening/morning appearances,
which is an annual variation with the daily sunrise/sunset.

Evening/morning appearances (of stars) *are* due to orbital motion,
while sunrise/sunset ("entering/exiting the circle of illumination" in
your words) Is entirely due to earth's rotation. We all know that.

fail to see where your view differs from the rest of us.
You just use different words in long twisted sentences that defy
comprehension. Then you whine about people not agreeing.

But let's see: When a location enters the circle of illumination (i.e.
sunrise) it doesn't see any object to the left of the Sun, as they would
be below the horison. Unless you live down under.
(Left and ríght are not very good descriptors here...)

And they certainly won't reappear to the right of the Sun at sunset
(the location exits the circle of illumination), unless you refer to
circumpolar objects due north of the Sun.

I think you got lost in your own words. Go figure...


Direct/retrograde motions are for astronomers who can now distinguish how
we see the faster moving planets from the slower moving planets as seen
from a moving Earth.


Commom knowledge. But that's not what I asked about.
You talk about "direct/retrogrades resolution". What is that?

Illusory open-ended loops of the slower planets where the Sun is never the
center of the loop -

https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap120809.html

Actual loop of the faster planets where the Sun is always at the center -

http://www.popastro.com/images/plane...July%202010-Ja
nuary%202012.jpg


Nothing new there - but I would call that illustration an actual loop.

Any more dull people who need English or astronomical lessons ?.


Yes. You! And you definitely need to improve your teaching skills.

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to those whom I don't mind billing by the hour
 




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