NASA Studying Russian 12-month Plan

(Derek Lyons) writes:

Actually the Navy (USN) only uses that system for SSBN's (missile
subs). They *don't* do it because of the length of the deployment,
but increase the availability of the hull. SSN's are single crew and
routinely deploy for 4-9 months.

So there would be some data here on the psychological effects of being
sealed in close quarters (without windows), for nearly a year at a
time.

Others here keep whining that we can't put people on ISS for over six
months because of all the unknowns. Well, here is one area where
there is data. NASA need only ask the NAVY.

Again, the biggest unknown, to NASA, is the physical effects of long
term exposure to microgravity. NASA does need data on this and they
do need to work on countermeasures (whether the final solution is
medical or engineering to produce "artificial gravity" by spinning the
craft).

Jeff
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On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 21:41:58 GMT, (Derek Lyons) wrote:
Gary Coffman wrote:
On 21 Apr 2004 09:57:14 -0400, jeff findley wrote:
(EAC) writes:

Of course, physical problems isn't the only thing, since there're also
mental and social problems with people being separated from their
community so long.

Again, talk to the Navy. I'm sure the submariners would be happy to
know that you think their jobs put them in so much psychological
peril and are implying that they can't handle it. If this were really
the problem you think it is, the Navy wouldn't be able to staff their
boats.

Actually, the navy uses two crews for subs. So the rotation is
a 3 month patrol followed by 3 months shore duty, then another
3 month patrol, etc.

Actually the Navy (USN) only uses that system for SSBN's (missile
subs). They *don't* do it because of the length of the deployment,
but increase the availability of the hull. SSN's are single crew and
routinely deploy for 4-9 months.

Yeah, but unlike a boomer, SSN crews don't stay continuously
submerged for the entire deployment. They'd run out of food.
They have to touch port or rendezvous with a tender to resupply.

Gary

jeff findley wrote:
Others here keep whining that we can't put people on ISS for over six
months because of all the unknowns. Well, here is one area where
there is data. NASA need only ask the NAVY.

How many crewmembers does a NAVY sub have ?

Can one truly compare the experience of a sub's mini society" with a station
that has 2, 3 or hopefully 6-7 crewmembers ?

The one aspect of the station is that crewmembers do have regular contacts
with their family on earth, whereas on subs, I am not sure if they have the
ability to phone home (can they exchange emails ?)

And on a mars mission, while time delays may eventually make it impossible to
have "live" conversations, there s no reason why crew memebrs couldn't
continue to have communications with their loved ones.

During a mars mission, would there be periods where the sun would be between
earth and mars, thus blocking all comms ? If so, how long would this last ?
hours, days, weeks ?

jeff findley wrote:
[...]

Again, the biggest unknown, to NASA, is the physical effects of long
term exposure to microgravity. NASA does need data on this and they
do need to work on countermeasures (whether the final solution is
medical or engineering to produce "artificial gravity" by spinning the
craft).


I didn't yet get the right google terms to find the answer to

-- How many Mir astronauts were on 6 month missions?
-- How many Mir astronauts were on 9 month missions?
-- How many Mir astronauts were on 12-14 month missions?

Also, is there a pointer to long-term comparison between these groups
on remaining bone density issues and/or cardio-vascular issues?

/dps

jeff findley wrote:

(Derek Lyons) writes:

Actually the Navy (USN) only uses that system for SSBN's (missile
subs). They *don't* do it because of the length of the deployment,
but increase the availability of the hull. SSN's are single crew and
routinely deploy for 4-9 months.

So there would be some data here on the psychological effects of being
sealed in close quarters (without windows), for nearly a year at a
time.

Not really. SSN's quite frequently pull into port over the course of
a deployment that long. Anecdotal and empirical evidence does suggest
however that something more than just 'dedication' is needed.

Submariners are a weird breed of cat, and it's not clear that what
they do as a matter of course is something that anyone can be trained
to do. Muddying the waters is the fact the submariners are both
volunteers and indoctrinated after volunteering. As is well known
among students of the military, the social pressure to not let one's
mates down is a very strong one. Couple this with the emphasis that
the sub force is something 'elite', and the social pressure to conform
and perform to the 'norm', and one gets an environment that's
difficult to easily characterize.

Others here keep whining that we can't put people on ISS for over six
months because of all the unknowns. Well, here is one area where
there is data. NASA need only ask the NAVY.

It's an open question as to whether or not the Navy would respond.
The only data really comparable is the SpecOp/Special Projects
deployments, which did routinely deploy without port calls from months
on end, and the Navy is reluctant to discuss those on general
principles. I don't think the Navy has actually performed ongoing
psychological studies and evaluations of the issue. (It has been
looked at off and on, but no IIRC no long term or ongoing program
exists.)

Even with such data, can NASA recreate the external and internal
psychological, environmental, and social pressures that go into
producing a submariner? After all, submariners have a tradition that
stretches back over a century, and a great degree of continuity.

My second CO, who signed my qual card, was qualified by a CO that
himself had been qualified by "Red" Ramage. (Look him up.) Thus
there is a direct link from our 'greatest generation' to me. The guys
whose cards I signed, and whose boards I sat, are just now reaching
retirement time (if they stayed in), and thus the continuity
continues. The key thing to realize here is that submariners are not
selected by bureaucrats, nor minted from a school. The only way to
earn those dolphins is by actually going to sea, going through the
qualification program, and being judged by a jury of your peers and
seniors. This, AFAIK, is unique in the military and a rarity in the
world of specialized qualifications in general.

Sorry for the lengthy reply, but it's not as simple an issue as it
first appears.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

(dave schneider) writes:

I didn't yet get the right google terms to find the answer to

-- How many Mir astronauts were on 6 month missions?
-- How many Mir astronauts were on 9 month missions?
-- How many Mir astronauts were on 12-14 month missions?

20 longest human flights (descended order)
http://space.kursknet.ru/cosmos/english/other/long.sht

No surprise that there are zero Americans on the list.

Note that this list includes flights to Russian space stations before
Mir (e.g. the Soyuz T5 and Soyuz T10 flights to Salyut 7).

Jeff
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(Derek Lyons) writes:

The key thing to realize here is that submariners are not selected
by bureaucrats, nor minted from a school. The only way to earn
those dolphins is by actually going to sea, going through the
qualification program, and being judged by a jury of your peers and
seniors. This, AFAIK, is unique in the military and a rarity in the
world of specialized qualifications in general. Sorry for the
lengthy reply, but it's not as simple an issue as it first appears.

I'm sure the military is a different world. The fact that you select
the next generation of submariners seems to indicate how unique this
job really is.

I'm not sure how involved Astronauts are with selecting the Astronaut
Candidates, nor am I familiar with how involved they are in training
the Candidates or selecting which Candidates will graduate and become
Astronauts.

Others here may know...

Jeff
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John Doe wrote:
The one aspect of the station is that crewmembers do have regular contacts
with their family on earth, whereas on subs, I am not sure if they have the
ability to phone home (can they exchange emails ?)

One way messages from families to crewmembers, limited to forty words
per message and only one or two messages a month. There is work being
done to provide email acess (I.E. two communications), but there are
significant opsec issues.

During a mars mission, would there be periods where the sun would be between
earth and mars, thus blocking all comms ? If so, how long would this last ?
hours, days, weeks ?

IIRC hours or (a very few) days.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

One way messages from families to crewmembers, limited to forty words
per message and only one or two messages a month. There is work being
done to provide email acess (I.E. two communications), but there are
significant opsec issues.

Theres no reason a crew couldnt communicate often with their family.
sensitivity in case say a crew members baby died or things like that would be
needed.
HAVE A GREAT DAY!

Funny that the Russians have to drag the Americans, kicking and
screaming, in order to perform missions that they've done repeatedly
on their stations. Maybe the Russians still have the "right stuff"
that the Americans have lost over the years.

Well russia and nasa hopefully reviewed all the reports from all long duration
missions.and determined the optimum length was 4 months. How effective is a 12
month stay with the crew making mistakes and being non productive? Anyone who
has gotten depressed knows they arent effective.

Just staying for a year with little science return to makwe a few bucks
accomplishes little
HAVE A GREAT DAY!