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NASA Announces SLS/Orion Flight Slide



 
 
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  #11  
Old May 2nd 17, 01:39 AM posted to sci.space.policy
Jeff Findley[_6_]
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Default NASA Announces SLS/Orion Flight Slide

In article om,
says...

On 2017-05-01 06:12, Jeff Findley wrote:

Also, EMUs aren't a good choice at all for exploring planetary surfaces.
From a recent Aviation Week article on the subject:


Since Orion isn't gonna land on a planet other than Earth, the only use
for a spacesuit would be for an EVA in 0g during the weekend road trip
around the moon (without landing there).

Is Orion even designed to support EVAs? (think about all electronics
needing to be water cooled so they don't die when whole capsule is
drained of air so hatch can be opened.)


I believe it can, similar to the Apollo CM, but it would almost
certainly be easier to use a dedicated airlock.

If NASA is stalling first manned flight with "suits not ready" excuse,
it seems to me it is a fabricated excuse and there is another reason for
the delay which NASA doesn't want to reveal.


I don't think you understand the details of what's involved here.

Is it possible that NASA knows that SLS will never be man-rated due to
vibration from SRBs, or having such large tanks


That's b.s. SLS will almost certainly be as smooth, or smoother, to fly
on than the shuttle.

when such suits are clearly not needed for that flight, there there is
something else to the need for the delay.


The suits aren't the main reason for the delay. The problem is that the
thing just isn't ready to fly.

Is it possible NASA knows SLS is flawed and shouldn't be used for manned
flight? (vibration from SRBs etc?) is NASA hoping the project gets
cancelled before it has to fess up that it would kill humans?


You're repeating yourself. Are you high?

Or is there confidence that the SLS rocket would perform admirably to
carry humans ?


It's never been test flown, so time will tell.

Jeff
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These posts do not reflect the opinions of my family, friends,
employer, or any organization that I am a member of.
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  #12  
Old May 2nd 17, 02:13 AM posted to sci.space.policy
Fred J. McCall[_3_]
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Default NASA Announces SLS/Orion Flight Slide

JF Mezei wrote:

On 2017-04-30 04:00, Fred J. McCall wrote:

Also the whole "we have no space suits" thing.


Go back to watch "From the Earth to the Moon". Where there is a will,
there is a budget to get it doen quickly enough.


So $200 million and eight years isn't enough money and time?


What is wrong with ACER and Shuttle/station suits that couldn't be used
for first manned flight?


I assume you mean "ACES". Insufficient mobility. Insufficient
duration. You need to keep in mind what ACES was designed for. That
being said, modifying ACES to be suitable (closed loop life support,
improved mobility) is precisely the track that will produce suits in
2021.

ISS suits suffer from the same mobility problem and are too bulky to
be worn in Orion as 'capsule suits'. In addition, WE DON'T HAVE ANY
SPARE ONES. There are a total of 11 of those things left in service.
Four of them are on ISS. The other seven are used here on Earth for
testing of issues that occur with the four that are in use. We
probably don't have enough of these suits to be sure of just getting
through the ISS program.


If NASA is just spending Pork money on R&D for totally new suits,
perhaps it needs to stop and just use existing suits, unless something
terribly wrong/incompatible has been identified.


THERE ARE NO EXISTING SUITS! Do you not read simple English?



Also the "we don't
have the required Deep Space communications or support networks in
place.


Since the flights are just a spin around the block which doesn't even
include a weekend camping stop on the moon, do we even need a deep space
communication network?


Yeah, we can do without life support, too. I mean, it's a short trip,
right? No reason why we might want to talk to them or they might want
to breath or stuff like that.


I know that the origianl deep space dishes in westernm Australia
(Carnarvon) have been decommissioned, one destroyed, the other a
museum), but surely there are others that can be used ?


I don't have time to educate you on this stuff given the magnitude of
your ignorance.



Also the whole "the ground facilities aren't set up to launch
people right now" thing.


And why aren't they ready?


Because the first manned flight of Orion isn't planned until out in
2021-2022 and you don't spend a bunch of money doing things you don't
need for half a decade. That's also why we don't have spacesuits in
hand, by the way.


Nasa began to "convert" the shuttle pad right
after the last flight. How come it woudn't be ready by now. It isn't as
if NASA never built such structures, they built them for the Apollo
programme. And they might even be able to re-use the rotating arm/white
room frm Shuttle era if re-installed at the right elevation.


Things that are different are not the same. SLS/Orion isn't the
Shuttle.


More and more, it looks to me like PORL boondogle where even NASA has
known this was just a "make work" project to keep politicians and ATK
happy without any expectations of it ever doing anything useful, so no
urgency in getting things done.

Now that they are afrraid the project might get cut because it is so
ludicrous, they are waking up to years of working without a purpose and
wondering hwo to get something deliverable.


Ask yourself how many times politicians have redirected just what
Orion is supposed to be and do. Congress is the PROBLEM. Well, them
and the President.




For the first flight, the capsule will be the only habitable volume,
right? no attached pressurized module for extra space?


What difference does that make?


Wondering what sort of deliverables are needed to make a manned flight.


First manned flight of this thing was scheduled for 4-5 years from
now. You don't just move the schedules for EVERYTHING a couple years
to the left. Have you ever run anything more complicated than a mop
and a deep fryer?

politically motivated idiocy elided


--
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
-- Thomas Jefferson
  #13  
Old May 2nd 17, 02:38 AM posted to sci.space.policy
Fred J. McCall[_3_]
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Default NASA Announces SLS/Orion Flight Slide

JF Mezei wrote:

On 2017-04-30 21:43, Jeff Findley wrote:

ACES is only a launch/entry suit. The problem is lack of EVA suits.
And there are precious few functioning shuttle EMUs.


In the case of the weekend road trip around the moon without any camping
there, are EVA suits necessary? I know it would be politically
incorrect to send them up without any suits, but what are the odds of
them seening an EVA suit?

Even Apollo 13 didn't get to use EVA suits.


EVA suits are not the only problem. There are the "keep your ass
alive if something goes wrong" suits, which we also don't have.
Remember, THIS IS AN EXPERIMENTAL VEHICLE. The 'wear in the capsule'
suits are scheduled for delivery in 2021 or so. You can't just ****
some magic dust and have them significantly sooner.



The problem is for the money spent, they don't have actual suits. They
have some technology demonstrators, not actual EVA suits.


Parson my stupitdy here,


No, I won't. You are persistently stupid and you need to stop doing
it.


but can't they just order some Shutte/ISS suits
to get started and finish work on the "new and improved" suits at their
own leasure? Those suits can then go to ISS once the "new and improved"
ones are ready.


So much ignorance. So little interest in correcting it. However,
I'll drop a few facts on you.

1) We probably don't have enough ISS suits to support ISS through the
rest of its life. Again, there are 11 of these suits with working
life support left in inventory.

2) These suits have an endurance of 8 hours, not the 8 days
potentially needed for EM-2.

3) These are rigid suits, totally incompatible with the whole idea of
sitting in a capsule.

4) The existing suits are already past their 15 year lifespans.

5) You can't just 'order more', any more than you can call up Ford and
order a 1958 Edsel. By the time you let a contract and reconstituted
the capability to build them, you'd have the new Orion suit scheduled
for delivery around 2022.

6) What kind of 'Exploration Suit' you need rather depends on what
you're going to be doing in it. Are you just going to be doing short
duration maintenance type things in orbit somewhere? That's one suit.
Do you plan on landing on something? That's a different suit.
Constant mission change is part of why NASA doesn't have a decent path
to this kind of suit.


Or did NASA design the Orion hatch to specifically prevent use of the
ISS suits? (square ped in round hatch?)


Did Mother Nature design your brain so that it wouldn't fit in your
skull, so it was just left on a shelf somewhere?



show for it (little flying anyway). Pad 39-B isn't ready for manned
SLS/Orion flights, end of story.


Why is that? Is it q question of the specs for SLS/Orion not having
been finalized until recently so they coudln't design the pad structures
, not knowing at what height the hatch for Orion would be, where
connection for O2, H2 etc ewould be made ?


Because you SCHEDULE that **** to happen when it needs to happen, not
years before you need it. Without the luxury of unlimited money, you
buy **** as you need it. Why don't you have 30 years of food in the
pantry?


After all these years, it seems to me that at the very least, they could
have converted the pad to match the specs of that Orion/SLS thing.


At what cost? Wouldn't it make more sense to spend the money as the
need gets closer and spend that past money on, oh, I don't know,
actually developing that SLS/Orion thingy?


Its like NASA has known this was a rocket to nowhere and was hoping it
would get cancelled before they have to permanently tear down structures
that could help a return of the shuttle.


It's like you don't understand scheduling anything more complicated
than your morning ****.


--
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
-- Thomas Jefferson
  #14  
Old May 2nd 17, 03:05 AM posted to sci.space.policy
Fred J. McCall[_3_]
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Posts: 9,553
Default NASA Announces SLS/Orion Flight Slide

JF Mezei wrote:

On 2017-05-01 06:12, Jeff Findley wrote:

Also, EMUs aren't a good choice at all for exploring planetary surfaces.
From a recent Aviation Week article on the subject:


Since Orion isn't gonna land on a planet other than Earth, the only use
for a spacesuit would be for an EVA in 0g during the weekend road trip
around the moon (without landing there).


Wrong. Remember, we're talking about an eight day mission in a
spacecraft that has never flown crewed. If something goes wrong and
the environment in the capsule becomes 'shirt sleeve unfriendly',
you'd still kind of like to get your astronauts back. That means you
need a suit you can stuff them into that has a duration of days, not
hours.


Is Orion even designed to support EVAs? (think about all electronics
needing to be water cooled so they don't die when whole capsule is
drained of air so hatch can be opened.)


Of course it's designed to support EVAs. You think Orion electronics
would ever be air cooled? That's so cute! Water is also pretty
unlikely.


If NASA is stalling first manned flight with "suits not ready" excuse,
it seems to me it is a fabricated excuse and there is another reason for
the delay which NASA doesn't want to reveal.


It seems to me that you're an idiot and need someone to empty your
drool cup for you.


Is it possible that NASA knows that SLS will never be man-rated due to
vibration from SRBs, or having such large tanks


Is it possible that unicorns might run through the capsule and ****
magic dust all over everything?


when such suits are clearly not needed for that flight, there there is
something else to the need for the delay.


It's good that you aren't in charge of anything more sophisticated
than the french fry fryer. You want space suits in case something
goes wrong with the experimental vehicle that people have never flown
in before. What you want is something LIKE an ACES suit but with a
lot more duration. Oddly, that is precisely what NASA has in the
project schedule; something very like an ACES suit but with better
mobility (because you have to wear it for longer) and with closed loop
life support so that it lasts longer.

snip idiot speculation


--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn
  #15  
Old May 2nd 17, 07:37 AM posted to sci.space.policy
Fred J. McCall[_3_]
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Default NASA Announces SLS/Orion Flight Slide

JF Mezei wrote:

On 2017-05-01 20:39, Jeff Findley wrote:

I don't think you understand the details of what's involved here.


Why can't Shuttle/ISS EMUs and the ACES suits be used for manned Orion
flights around the moon?


Because ACES suits don't exist anymore and there are precisely 11 ISS
EMUs and I wouldn't want to spend 8 days in a suit with a max 8 hour
duration. ACES is open loop life support, which means it doesn't have
sufficient duration for the mission. It also doesn't have sufficient
mobility to spend 8 days in it.


The only excuse I have goptten so far is that those suits are not well
suited for on-planet operations. Sicne there are no on-planet missions
planned for Orion, why are new suits a requirememnt so important it is
part of the delays cited for manned flight ?


Well, then you should open your ****ing eyes and pay attention. I've
explained this to you AT LEAST five times. New suits are a
requirement because you'd like to get the astronauts back if something
goes wrong.



That's b.s. SLS will almost certainly be as smooth, or smoother, to fly
on than the shuttle.


That is the first time I see someone make that claim here. So is SLS's
only problem cost? And whatever problems NASA is working on are fairly
minor "debugging" and no show stopping problems ?


I'm sure you frequently have that 'first time' feeling, given that you
appear to have the memory of a mayfly. What NASA is working on is
normal development and integration.


--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn
  #16  
Old May 2nd 17, 07:48 AM posted to sci.space.policy
Fred J. McCall[_3_]
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Posts: 9,553
Default NASA Announces SLS/Orion Flight Slide

JF Mezei wrote:

On 2017-05-01 21:13, Fred J. McCall wrote:

I assume you mean "ACES". Insufficient mobility. Insufficient
duration. You need to keep in mind what ACES was designed for.


And what is wrong with ACES for liftoff/landing ? Isn't "duration"
about the same for orbit insertion?


They're going around the Moon, you nitwit. It's an eight day mission.
You'd like to get them back if something goes wrong. This is an
experimental vehicle that has never flown in a fully integrated state,
much less had people on it.



ISS suits suffer from the same mobility problem and are too bulky to
be worn in Orion as 'capsule suits'.


For the planned Orion flighst around the moon and back, there would be
no mission needs to land, there would ne no mission requirement to test
suits. The EMUs would be there in case of a problem requiring an
unplanned emergency EVA. (undeployed solar panel for instance).


You don't have an airlock on Orion, so if you're going to EVA
*EVERYONE* needs a suit and they better last long enough to get you
home.


And those suits would be used in the very same was as they were in the
shuttle and ISS, to do an IVA in 0G space. Not on Mars, not on Moon, not
on Saturn or wherever NASA PR says Orion will take humans.


And what do the non-EVA troops breath? Vacuum? Where are you going
to put four EMUs in a four-man capsule?



In addition, WE DON'T HAVE ANY
SPARE ONES.


Every heard of using existing designs to make more? As I said in
previous post, after teh 4 Orion flights are done and project cancelled,
you then have EMU suist that can be used on ISS.


Call up Ford and order a 1958 Edsel. I'll wait...



Yeah, we can do without life support, too. I mean, it's a short trip,
right? No reason why we might want to talk to them or they might want
to breath or stuff like that.


So ECLSS is also late ? The initial flights will have an Orion without
any ECLSS? is that what you're saying?


No, you dip****. I'm pointing out that being able to talk to the
****ing capsule is as important as having air. It being a 'short
trip' is irrelevant to that. You understand that when things happen
in flight it's the folks on the ground who find solutions, right?
Without communications, the guys on the ground who figure out
solutions don't know anything has gone wrong and can't tell the crew
what to do to try to fix it even if they did know.


After all these years and the ability to test on ISS in 0g, they still
don't have a working ECLSS system?


After all these years and the ability to test in real life, you still
don't have a brain?


--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn
  #17  
Old May 3rd 17, 10:30 AM posted to sci.space.policy
Fred J. McCall[_3_]
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Posts: 9,553
Default NASA Announces SLS/Orion Flight Slide

JF Mezei wrote:

On 2017-05-02 02:37, Fred J. McCall wrote:

Because ACES suits don't exist anymore and there are precisely 11 ISS
EMUs and I wouldn't want to spend 8 days in a suit with a max 8 hour
duration.


So, on Soyuz, Apollo and Shuttle, first thing after launch is get out of
the launch suits and spend rest of trip in shirt sleeve clothing until
you don the launch/re-entry suits again just before re-entry.


Not fully true, but whatever. You do like to compare apples and
aardvarks, don't you?


But on Orion, you claim the crews will need to stay in pressure suits
the whole way?


Do I need to kick you in the ass to dislodge your head, because it
seems to be stuck up there?

Hypothetical: Your spacecraft suffers a decompression incident
halfway to the Moon. What do you do? Remember, this is a vehicle
that has NEVER flow full up and has NEVER flown crewed.

Soyuz suits are good for a bit over two hours. If a Soyuz suffers
decompression they MUST land within that two hours.

ACES is good for 10 minutes. It assumes you're plugged into vehicle
life support systems. Note that Shuttle astronauts didn't wear suits
at all inside the vehicle until after Challenger.

If you didn't have the EVA backpack or an umbillical, the Apollo suits
were good for 30 minutes. The EVA backpack was good for seven hours.


--
"Rule Number One for Slayers - Don't die."
-- Buffy, the Vampire Slayer
  #18  
Old May 3rd 17, 11:05 AM posted to sci.space.policy
Jeff Findley[_6_]
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Posts: 1,532
Default NASA Announces SLS/Orion Flight Slide

In article ,
says...

But on Orion, you claim the crews will need to stay in pressure suits
the whole way?


Do I need to kick you in the ass to dislodge your head, because it
seems to be stuck up there?

Hypothetical: Your spacecraft suffers a decompression incident
halfway to the Moon. What do you do? Remember, this is a vehicle
that has NEVER flow full up and has NEVER flown crewed.

Soyuz suits are good for a bit over two hours. If a Soyuz suffers
decompression they MUST land within that two hours.

ACES is good for 10 minutes. It assumes you're plugged into vehicle
life support systems. Note that Shuttle astronauts didn't wear suits
at all inside the vehicle until after Challenger.

If you didn't have the EVA backpack or an umbillical, the Apollo suits
were good for 30 minutes. The EVA backpack was good for seven hours.


Yes you need to have the suits available in case of a contingency, so
you want to certify them for the longest contingency anticipated (i.e.
depressurization when the capsule is "most of the way" to lunar orbit).

But, even the Apollo 7 press kit said:

https://history.nasa.gov/alsj/a410/A07_PressKit.pdf

Early in the flight, the crew may doff pressure suits and don
the inflight coveralls.

From page 58:

Apollo 7 Spacesuits
Apollo 7 crewmen, for the first hours of flight, and for
the four hours prior to the de-orbit burn, will wear the A7L
pressure garment assembly -- a multi-layer spacesuit coneisting
of a helmet, torso and gloves which can be pressurized independ-
ently of the spacecraft.

So, barring spacewalks and contingencies, the suits were needed about
four hours before luanch ("T-3:45 - Don pressure suits"), during the
first few hours of flight, four hours prior to descent, and then while
they waited for recovery. So, the suits had to work for two
approximately 8 hour stretches. You wouldn't really want to wear an
Apollo suit much more than 8 hours at a time anyway.

Jeff
--
All opinions posted by me on Usenet News are mine, and mine alone.
These posts do not reflect the opinions of my family, friends,
employer, or any organization that I am a member of.
  #19  
Old May 3rd 17, 06:15 PM posted to sci.space.policy
Fred J. McCall[_3_]
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Posts: 9,553
Default NASA Announces SLS/Orion Flight Slide

Jeff Findley wrote:

In article ,
says...

But on Orion, you claim the crews will need to stay in pressure suits
the whole way?


Do I need to kick you in the ass to dislodge your head, because it
seems to be stuck up there?

Hypothetical: Your spacecraft suffers a decompression incident
halfway to the Moon. What do you do? Remember, this is a vehicle
that has NEVER flow full up and has NEVER flown crewed.

Soyuz suits are good for a bit over two hours. If a Soyuz suffers
decompression they MUST land within that two hours.

ACES is good for 10 minutes. It assumes you're plugged into vehicle
life support systems. Note that Shuttle astronauts didn't wear suits
at all inside the vehicle until after Challenger.

If you didn't have the EVA backpack or an umbillical, the Apollo suits
were good for 30 minutes. The EVA backpack was good for seven hours.


Yes you need to have the suits available in case of a contingency, so
you want to certify them for the longest contingency anticipated (i.e.
depressurization when the capsule is "most of the way" to lunar orbit).

But, even the Apollo 7 press kit said:

https://history.nasa.gov/alsj/a410/A07_PressKit.pdf

Early in the flight, the crew may doff pressure suits and don
the inflight coveralls.

From page 58:

Apollo 7 Spacesuits
Apollo 7 crewmen, for the first hours of flight, and for
the four hours prior to the de-orbit burn, will wear the A7L
pressure garment assembly -- a multi-layer spacesuit coneisting
of a helmet, torso and gloves which can be pressurized independ-
ently of the spacecraft.

So, barring spacewalks and contingencies, the suits were needed about
four hours before luanch ("T-3:45 - Don pressure suits"), during the
first few hours of flight, four hours prior to descent, and then while
they waited for recovery. So, the suits had to work for two
approximately 8 hour stretches. You wouldn't really want to wear an
Apollo suit much more than 8 hours at a time anyway.


It takes a lot longer to get back if you lose pressure on the way to
the Moon. It's not like you can just turn around and come back. This
is why they flew SIX unmanned missions with the hardware before the
first time they trusted it with crew. We don't get that level of
confidence with Orion, especially if we fly the FIRST mission with a
crew, so I'd kind of want a suit that can get them home if **** goes
wrong. NASA apparently feels the same way, which is why they're going
from open loop life support on the suits to closed loop.


--
"Rule Number One for Slayers - Don't die."
-- Buffy, the Vampire Slayer
  #20  
Old May 3rd 17, 11:12 PM posted to sci.space.policy
Jeff Findley[_6_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,532
Default NASA Announces SLS/Orion Flight Slide

In article ,
says...
It takes a lot longer to get back if you lose pressure on the way to
the Moon. It's not like you can just turn around and come back. This
is why they flew SIX unmanned missions with the hardware before the
first time they trusted it with crew. We don't get that level of
confidence with Orion, especially if we fly the FIRST mission with a
crew, so I'd kind of want a suit that can get them home if **** goes
wrong. NASA apparently feels the same way, which is why they're going
from open loop life support on the suits to closed loop.


Agreed. When SLS/Orion is so damn expensive you can't afford a
reasonable test program. I'm going to guess that six unmanned test
flights of Orion on SLS would stretch the first manned flight out until
2023 to 2025 or so. The limiting factor here being SLS since it hasn't
flown yet and it will take time to get up to the two flights per year
flight rate that is the limit (with today's production facilities which
are limited by funding).

Even assuming you launched four of those tests on Delta IV Heavy (with a
"light" load of consumables in the service module), you'd still want at
least a couple of "full duration" tests of Orion with full consumables
in the service module, which would mean SLS flights. Then the limiting
factor becomes how many Orions are built and how quickly you can
refurbish them for another flight. That and how quickly ESA can build
service modules, since we're dependent on them too.

So yeah, Orion is pretty much effed without long duration closed loop
suits, which is something NASA doesn't (yet) seem too worried about.

:-P

Jeff
--
All opinions posted by me on Usenet News are mine, and mine alone.
These posts do not reflect the opinions of my family, friends,
employer, or any organization that I am a member of.
 




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