LIGO test results

I was wondering concerning the ethical standards in today’s world of
scientific research if by chance LIGO does not detect gravity waves. What
would chances be test results becoming skewed or even falsified?

Even though LIGO’s engineering and components are state of the art. The way
LIGO is set up seems way too simple and easy. In my opinion that if you want
to get those laser beams to start flickering the LIGO apparatus should be
torn from the ground and flung through space at a constant velocity.

I don’t think even LISA will work right unless it’s moving. If one of the
laser projectors were moving and chasing the receiver while maintaining a
fixed velocity and distance only then along with proper orientation to the
GR waveform would you get a measurable signal.

With the LIGO systems already built now or planned being in a stationary
position or “NULL” state. It doesn’t seem that likely gravity waves are
going to be easily detected.

"Ozmodium" wrote in message
news:A2b6f.158$Yn4.95@trnddc03...
I was wondering concerning the ethical standards in today’s world of
scientific research if by chance LIGO does not detect gravity waves. What
would chances be test results becoming skewed or even falsified?

None. It is already known that this version of LIGO is
unlikely to detect them, the next version "LIGO 2" will
be fifteen times more sensitive and has a better chance.

Even though LIGO’s engineering and components are state of the art. The
way
LIGO is set up seems way too simple and easy. In my opinion that if you
want
to get those laser beams to start flickering the LIGO apparatus should be
torn from the ground and flung through space at a constant velocity.

http://lisa.jpl.nasa.gov/

George

"Ozmodium" wrote in message news:A2b6f.158$Yn4.95@trnddc03...
I was wondering concerning the ethical standards in today’s world of
scientific research if by chance LIGO does not detect gravity waves. What
would chances be test results becoming skewed or even falsified?

No chance. There's too much interest and too many eyes on the work,
and any chicanery would instantly end careers.


Even though LIGO’s engineering and components are state of the art. The way
LIGO is set up seems way too simple and easy. In my opinion that if you want
to get those laser beams to start flickering the LIGO apparatus should be
torn from the ground and flung through space at a constant velocity.

Why?


I don’t think even LISA will work right unless it’s moving. If one of the
laser projectors were moving and chasing the receiver while maintaining a
fixed velocity and distance only then along with proper orientation to the
GR waveform would you get a measurable signal.

What is your concept of the shape and nature of a gravitational
waveform?


With the LIGO systems already built now or planned being in a stationary
position or “NULL” state. It doesn’t seem that likely gravity waves are
going to be easily detected.

Stationary? The Earth is moving my friend, or hadn't you
heard?

"Greg Neill" wrote in message
...

Even though LIGO's engineering and components are state of the art. The
way
LIGO is set up seems way too simple and easy. In my opinion that if you
want
to get those laser beams to start flickering the LIGO apparatus should
be
torn from the ground and flung through space at a constant velocity.

Why?

Just a hunch, like I said the way it's set up seems too simple.
It's as though a key factor is being overlooked.


I don't think even LISA will work right unless it's moving. If one of
the
laser projectors were moving and chasing the receiver while maintaining
a
fixed velocity and distance only then along with proper orientation to
the
GR waveform would you get a measurable signal.

What is your concept of the shape and nature of a gravitational
waveform?

I would say the kind of smooth rolling sinewave similar to the waves seen on
a pond.
Though as you know, GR waves cause variations in time and space.

With the LIGO systems already built now or planned being in a stationary
position or "NULL" state. It doesn't seem that likely gravity waves are
going to be easily detected.

Stationary? The Earth is moving my friend, or hadn't you
heard?

Yes but the Earth's rotation is churning up it's own gravitational waves and
possibly
interfering with trying to detect the ones from deep space.

"Ozmodium" wrote in message news:2dw6f.2151$HW5.721@trnddc04...

"Greg Neill" wrote in message
...

Even though LIGO's engineering and components are state of the art. The
way
LIGO is set up seems way too simple and easy. In my opinion that if you
want
to get those laser beams to start flickering the LIGO apparatus should
be
torn from the ground and flung through space at a constant velocity.

Why?

Just a hunch, like I said the way it's set up seems too simple.
It's as though a key factor is being overlooked.

That's not an argument. Sometimes simplicity is key.



I don't think even LISA will work right unless it's moving. If one of
the
laser projectors were moving and chasing the receiver while maintaining
a
fixed velocity and distance only then along with proper orientation to
the
GR waveform would you get a measurable signal.

What is your concept of the shape and nature of a gravitational
waveform?

I would say the kind of smooth rolling sinewave similar to the waves seen on
a pond.
Though as you know, GR waves cause variations in time and space.

Well, that would not be in accord with what the equations of
General Relativity say. Gravitational waves will cause 3D
distortions in what they pass through.


With the LIGO systems already built now or planned being in a stationary
position or "NULL" state. It doesn't seem that likely gravity waves are
going to be easily detected.

Stationary? The Earth is moving my friend, or hadn't you
heard?

Yes but the Earth's rotation is churning up it's own gravitational waves and
possibly
interfering with trying to detect the ones from deep space.

The Earth's rotation won't cause gravitational waves. If it
pulsed in an out, sure. Or if it could be vibrated back and
forth at a great rate of speed, fine. But just spinning
doesn't cut it for gravitational waves. Further, the gravitational
radiation from the Earth's orbit of the Sun is far, far too puny
to register; you need something really cataclysmic, like
colliding black holes, to create a wave big enough to create
a measurable signal with the present apparatus.

"George Dishman" wrote in message
...

"Ozmodium" wrote in message
news:A2b6f.158$Yn4.95@trnddc03...
I was wondering concerning the ethical standards in today's world of
scientific research if by chance LIGO does not detect gravity waves.
What
would chances be test results becoming skewed or even falsified?

None. It is already known that this version of LIGO is
unlikely to detect them, the next version "LIGO 2" will
be fifteen times more sensitive and has a better chance.


So it didn't work the first time around... I sure hope they know what they'
re doing.


Even though LIGO's engineering and components are state of the art. The
way
LIGO is set up seems way too simple and easy. In my opinion that if you
want
to get those laser beams to start flickering the LIGO apparatus should
be
torn from the ground and flung through space at a constant velocity.

http://lisa.jpl.nasa.gov/

George

"Greg Neill" wrote in message
...
"Ozmodium" wrote in message
news:2dw6f.2151$HW5.721@trnddc04...

"Greg Neill" wrote in message
...

Even though LIGO's engineering and components are state of the art.
The
way
LIGO is set up seems way too simple and easy. In my opinion that if
you
want
to get those laser beams to start flickering the LIGO apparatus
should
be
torn from the ground and flung through space at a constant velocity.

Why?

Just a hunch, like I said the way it's set up seems too simple.
It's as though a key factor is being overlooked.

That's not an argument. Sometimes simplicity is key.



I don't think even LISA will work right unless it's moving. If one
of
the
laser projectors were moving and chasing the receiver while
maintaining
a
fixed velocity and distance only then along with proper orientation
to
the
GR waveform would you get a measurable signal.

What is your concept of the shape and nature of a gravitational
waveform?

I would say the kind of smooth rolling sinewave similar to the waves
seen on
a pond.
Though as you know, GR waves cause variations in time and space.

Well, that would not be in accord with what the equations of
General Relativity say. Gravitational waves will cause 3D
distortions in what they pass through.


With the LIGO systems already built now or planned being in a
stationary
position or "NULL" state. It doesn't seem that likely gravity waves
are
going to be easily detected.

Stationary? The Earth is moving my friend, or hadn't you
heard?

Yes but the Earth's rotation is churning up it's own gravitational waves
and
possibly
interfering with trying to detect the ones from deep space.

The Earth's rotation won't cause gravitational waves. If it
pulsed in an out, sure. Or if it could be vibrated back and
forth at a great rate of speed, fine. But just spinning
doesn't cut it for gravitational waves. Further, the gravitational
radiation from the Earth's orbit of the Sun is far, far too puny
to register; you need something really cataclysmic, like
colliding black holes, to create a wave big enough to create
a measurable signal with the present apparatus.


According to a report pertaining to data collected from Gravity Probe B
The Earth is analogous to a basketball spinning in a large vat of molasses.
As the Earth spins some of the molasses (or spacetime) is dragged along with
it.

So, it seems if there is some gravitational disturbance throwing out ripples
in another part of the vat.
When the waves finally arrive faint as they are, wouldn't the Earth's
dragging and churning of the spacetime
immediately surrounding the planet create a sort of barrier and interfere
with the detection of far way signal?

Like a ship at anchor compared to a ship moving at 20 knots. When the moving
vessel impacts with
a waveform you get a much more energetic reaction. The same goes for LIGO it
should be placed in
open space and moving. Sure LISA is going in space but it still won't be
moving.

Dear Ozmodium:

"Ozmodium" wrote in message
newsAD6f.6000$gF4.4771@trnddc07...
....
According to a report pertaining to data collected from
Gravity Probe B The Earth is analogous to a basketball
spinning in a large vat of molasses.

Frame dragging.

As the Earth spins some of the molasses (or
spacetime) is dragged along with it.

So, it seems if there is some gravitational disturbance
throwing out ripples in another part of the vat.
When the waves finally arrive faint as they are, wouldn't
the Earth's dragging and churning of the spacetime
immediately surrounding the planet create a sort of
barrier and interfere with the detection of far way signal?

"Interfere" as in having an effect, yes. "Interfere" as in
preventing detection, no.

Consider waves (analogous to gravity waves) and vortices
(analogous to frame dragging by the Earth). A wave can pass
by/through/over a vortex. And it is possible the vortex could
even amplify the effect of the wave (locally).

David A. Smith

"Ozmodium" wrote in message
news:rzD6f.5992$gF4.2604@trnddc07...

"George Dishman" wrote in message
...

"Ozmodium" wrote in message
news:A2b6f.158$Yn4.95@trnddc03...
I was wondering concerning the ethical standards in today's world of
scientific research if by chance LIGO does not detect gravity waves.
What would chances be test results becoming skewed or even falsified?

None. It is already known that this version of LIGO is
unlikely to detect them, the next version "LIGO 2" will
be fifteen times more sensitive and has a better chance.


So it didn't work the first time around...

The "first time around" hasn't happened yet, they
are still building it.

I sure hope they know what they're doing.

Of course. They know the sensitivity they are achieving
and all the time they get null results, they are setting
an upper limit on the level of signals that exist. It's
like someone in a spaceship far from any galaxy building
ever more sensitive telescopes. As long as they see
nothing, they are placing an upper limit on the
brightness, but until they see their first they can't be
sure that stars even exist.

George

"Ozmodium" wrote in message
newsAD6f.6000$gF4.4771@trnddc07...

"Greg Neill" wrote in message
...
....
The Earth's rotation won't cause gravitational waves. If it
pulsed in an out, sure. Or if it could be vibrated back and
forth at a great rate of speed, fine. But just spinning
doesn't cut it for gravitational waves. Further, the gravitational
radiation from the Earth's orbit of the Sun is far, far too puny
to register; you need something really cataclysmic, like
colliding black holes, to create a wave big enough to create
a measurable signal with the present apparatus.

According to a report pertaining to data collected from Gravity Probe B
The Earth is analogous to a basketball spinning in a large vat of
molasses.
As the Earth spins some of the molasses (or spacetime) is dragged along
with
it.

A slow smooth drag.

So, it seems if there is some gravitational disturbance throwing out
ripples
in another part of the vat.
When the waves finally arrive faint as they are, wouldn't the Earth's
dragging and churning of the spacetime
immediately surrounding the planet create a sort of barrier and interfere
with the detection of far way signal?

Throw a pebbles in a stream near a weir. As the ripples
go over the top they will be deflected slightly by the
flow but they are still present.

Like a ship at anchor compared to a ship moving at 20 knots. When the
moving
vessel impacts with
a waveform you get a much more energetic reaction. The same goes for LIGO
it
should be placed in
open space and moving. Sure LISA is going in space but it still won't be
moving.

If it wasn't moving, it wouldn't be in orbit, and the
solar system is moving round the centre of the galaxy.
However, that is beside the point, the gravitational
waves are moving at the speed of light so any extra
energy from any speed we could give the detector
would be completely negligible. If the gravitational
waves were moving at 20 knots, you would have a point.

George