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Real astronomical challenges



 
 
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  #11  
Old February 27th 18, 06:41 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Gerald Kelleher
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Default Real astronomical challenges

The 24 hour system is anchored in a central Sun and rotation so the system owes its existence to the same principles which govern orbital references (evening/morning appearances of stars). In one of the most exquisite astronomical tricks, the variations in the natural noon cycle are averaged to 24 hours which in turn act as a principle for constant rotation insofar as the term 'average' substitutes for 'constant' rotation at a rate of 15 degrees per hour and once in 24 hours.

The attempt to project the 24 hour system and Lat/Long system into space as RA/Dec would seriously not be a problem if it was recognized for what it is - a timekeeping convenience that allows predictions of astronomical events to a more refined format (such as the predictions of the beginning and end of a solar eclipse). RA/Dec becomes an absurdity if it is used as a foundation for the Earth's motions as the stars basically orbit the Earth with smaller circuits towards the poles.


It is Right Ascension/ Declination that is driving these weird notions of a zero degree inclination and a pivoting circle of illumination as form follows function of a celestial sphere scaffolding -

https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap170319.html

Retaining physical considerations or 'saving the appearances' remains the prime objective of any astronomer worth their salt so if notions like the 'circle of illumination becomes vertical' on the Equinox is a viable view then we have reached intellectual nadir in all affairs much less astronomical ones.

  #12  
Old February 27th 18, 07:57 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Quadibloc
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On Tuesday, February 27, 2018 at 7:34:01 AM UTC-7, Gerald Kelleher wrote:

NB - Once astronomers are conceptually bound to the astronomical event where any
star close to the orbital plane will skip a first annual appearance after the
4th cycle of 365 days, they are bound to the proportions of rotations to orbital
circuits close to 1461 rotations to 4 orbital circuits or 365 1/4 rotations to
one circuit. The Precession of the Equinoxes as a result that it is not exactly
365 1/4 rotations per circuit.


As it is not exactly 365 1/4 rotations per cycle of the seasons, we have given
up the Julian calendar for the Gregorian one.

It is _also_ not exactly 365 1/4 rotations per cycle of the stars in the night
sky.

But the *precession of the equinoxes* is due to the difference between the
*cycle of the seasons* (in which the equinoxes are set) and the stars of the
night sky (against which they precess) and the number of days either one of
those things take - except for the difference between the two - is quite
irrelevant.

The equinoxes would still precess, given that those two cycles are different,
even if one of them took an exact number of days. (Or both of them, and they
differed by a whole day, but then the equinoxes would precess a lot faster.)

That is why the song is about the dawning of "The Age of Aquarius" and not "The
Age of March 23rd".

John Savard
  #13  
Old February 27th 18, 09:29 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Gerald Kelleher
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Default Real astronomical challenges

Many incompetents who try to comment on this topic will pass off into oblivion having not passed through life enjoying what is in front with them, especially with all the benefits of imaging and technology. The outward appearance of stability which once was Royal Society empiricism suddenly becomes exposed as a pivoting circle of illumination as a function of RA/Dec.

The cause of the 24 hour day/night cycle is intrinsic rotation with a maximum equatorial speed of 1037.5 miles per hour while the seasons are a combination of rotations - the normal 24 hour rotation in combination with the surface rotation as a function of the Earth's orbital motion, the latter easily understood as the Polar day/night cycles at the North/South poles.

https://www.usap.gov/videoclipsandmaps/spwebcam.cfm

The area where the Sun is constantly in view is down to roughly 1,587 miles from a maximum area of 3,105 miles on the December Solstice and on the March Equinox that distance will reduce to zero as the Sun goes out of sight for the one and only time in 2018 at the South pole.

For people to research the Polar day/night cycle in any meaningful way, the notion of axial precession has to give way to the surface rotation as a function of the annual orbital motion of the Earth. While most people have no respect for themselves and will leave the Earth this way, the option is not to suffer a pivoting circle of illumination but to get stuck into the cause of the Polar day/night cycle as a prelude for researching climate, the seasons, orbital speed variations and multiple other topics.

Wish the nuisances would stick with discussing cars, bicycles and telescopes but this is an unmoderated forum after all and that is unavoidable.


  #14  
Old February 27th 18, 10:11 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Mike Collins[_4_]
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Default Real astronomical challenges

wrote:
On Tuesday, February 27, 2018 at 2:19:49 PM UTC, Gerald Kelleher wrote:
It is the Precession of the Equinoxes is a more refined observation that
caused Sirius to skip a first annual appearance by 1 day after four cycles of 365 days.


No - the first appearance of Sirius is now after the summer solstice. In
ancient Egypt it was before the solstice.

This is not because the dates are out of synch due to leap days - that
effect can not reverse the order of these events.


Actually Niall your excellent replies in this thread are a disappointment.
You are perfectly right in your answers but I was hoping that Oriel would
break Brad Guth’s record of over a hundred posts in a thread without any
other participant than himself.


  #15  
Old February 27th 18, 10:18 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Quadibloc
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Default Real astronomical challenges

On Tuesday, February 27, 2018 at 1:29:12 PM UTC-7, Gerald Kelleher wrote:

Many incompetents who try to comment on this topic


I'm afraid that there is a consensus about who is the incompetent around
here...

Wish the nuisances would stick with discussing cars, bicycles and telescopes


Well, I'll try to come close:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuBumHuouug

John Savard
  #16  
Old February 27th 18, 10:24 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Gerald Kelleher
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Default Real astronomical challenges

Well Collins, being spiritual is the ability to be inspired and inspiring so easy to discern how dead you are when it comes to astronomy and appreciation of our home planet -

https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap170319.html

The Royal Society academics (worldwide) are like conservative brexiteers - living out a fantasy of their own making with no redeeming characteristics with that interpretation carrying a NASA imprimatur being one among many meaningless conceptions.

I do not care if I see no responses, it is enough that one person cares enough about this era to put genuine observations front and center and that not everyone was taken in by celestial sphere thinking in all its forms.






  #17  
Old February 28th 18, 10:53 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Gerald Kelleher
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Default Real astronomical challenges

Royal Society empirical followers are made of the same stuff as Brexiteers in their ability to make things up as they go along but this is counteracted by a steady and unflinching use of images and texts supporting the original astronomical precepts and even the necessary modifications including the topic under consideration.

It is not an anti-British view however the mathematician who kicked off the 'scientific method' was English and his followers were from the same Society yet it was later English innovators like John Harrison, William Blake, William Smith and so many others who maintained the British engineering, spiritual and terrestrial science tradition as the most influential in our era..

I wouldn't have the time or energy to deal with those who have no discipline and say whatever comes into the head to distract from the responsible use of imaging however,at the same time, it is dismaying that these things are on offer every single moment of the day to those who can overcome the initial difficulties of apathy and unfamiliarity.

  #18  
Old March 2nd 18, 09:47 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Mike Collins[_4_]
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Default Real astronomical challenges

Quadibloc wrote:
On Sunday, February 25, 2018 at 2:07:43 AM UTC-7, Gerald Kelleher quoted, in part:
Therefore, while the earth's center always remains in the plane of the ecliptic,
that is, in the circumference of a circle of the Grand Orb, the earth's poles
rotate, both of them describing small circles about centers [lying on a line
that moves] parallel to the Grand Orb's axis." Copernicus, Commentariolus


The idea that the Earth's poles, instead of remaining fixed, always pointing in
the same direction, as the Earth revolves around the Sun, *rotate* in a circle
around _ecliptic_ north...

is currently considered to be mistaken by the astronomers of today.

And yet, who would dare to dispute with the great Copernicus?

Ah, but could it not be that since Copernicus - except for an ancient Greek,
whose insights had been discarded and forgotten - was the _first_ to see that
the Earth orbited the Sun, even as the Moon does the earth, if he tried to speak
in a fully Copernican language, he would have no one to understand him?

And so, it is entirely to be understood and forgiven that he had to express his
discoveries and insights in geocentric language.

John Savard


An Ancient Greek to whom Copernicus acknowledged his debt in writing but
then deleted the acknowledgment in his published work.


  #19  
Old March 2nd 18, 10:37 AM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Gerald Kelleher
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Default Real astronomical challenges

On Friday, March 2, 2018 at 8:47:27 AM UTC, Mike Collins wrote:


An Ancient Greek to whom Copernicus acknowledged his debt in writing but
then deleted the acknowledgment in his published work.



Brexiteers, I mean Royal Society empirical followers, make history up as they go along but when faced with actual history complain that it is all cut and paste.

You are referring to Aristogoras who made a very good attempt to explain observations of daily rotation and orbital motion using sunrise/sunset for the former and seasonal declination for the latter -

"...just as Cleanthes thought it right that the Greeks collectively should impeach Aristagoras the Stoic, of impiety, for overthrowing the altar of earth, because the fellow attempted to account for visible phenomena by supposing that the sky remains fixed, and that the earth rolls round down an oblique circle, turning at the same time upon its own axis." Plutarch

http://thriceholy.net/Texts/Moon.html

When Copernicus shifted attention to direct/retrogrades of the slower moving outer planets, then he converted the illusory loops into the Earth's orbital motion and the normal temporary falling behind in view all objects display as they are overtaken -

https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap011220.html

The perspective for the direct/retrogrades of the faster moving and smaller circuits of Venus and Mercury originated in this forum as their loops are actual and dictated by phase and size increases/decreases as those planets approach and recede from the slower moving Earth -

https://astronomer-wpengine.netdna-s...us-300x241.jpg


Who do I give credit to ? - basically everyone from those who created technological advancements to all the other perspectives that chopped and changed over the thousands of years astronomers tried to make sense of observations. That's the secret Collins, there is no need to talk down human achievements or trying to squeeze observations into a Greek framework so theorists can promote themselves as 'enlightened' while ignoring everything else.

You can't explain the direct/retrogrades of Venus so don't give yourself some status you don't have.
  #20  
Old March 2nd 18, 05:05 PM posted to sci.astro.amateur
Mike Collins[_4_]
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Default Real astronomical challenges

Gerald Kelleher wrote:
On Friday, March 2, 2018 at 8:47:27 AM UTC, Mike Collins wrote:


An Ancient Greek to whom Copernicus acknowledged his debt in writing but
then deleted the acknowledgment in his published work.



Brexiteers, I mean Royal Society empirical followers, make history up as
they go along but when faced with actual history complain that it is all cut and paste.

You are referring to Aristogoras who made a very good attempt to explain
observations of daily rotation and orbital motion using sunrise/sunset
for the former and seasonal declination for the latter -

"...just as Cleanthes thought it right that the Greeks collectively
should impeach Aristagoras the Stoic, of impiety, for overthrowing the
altar of earth, because the fellow attempted to account for visible
phenomena by supposing that the sky remains fixed, and that the earth
rolls round down an oblique circle, turning at the same time upon its own axis." Plutarch

http://thriceholy.net/Texts/Moon.html

When Copernicus shifted attention to direct/retrogrades of the slower
moving outer planets, then he converted the illusory loops into the
Earth's orbital motion and the normal temporary falling behind in view
all objects display as they are overtaken -

https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap011220.html

The perspective for the direct/retrogrades of the faster moving and
smaller circuits of Venus and Mercury originated in this forum as their
loops are actual and dictated by phase and size increases/decreases as
those planets approach and recede from the slower moving Earth -

https://astronomer-wpengine.netdna-s...us-300x241.jpg


Who do I give credit to ? - basically everyone from those who created
technological advancements to all the other perspectives that chopped and
changed over the thousands of years astronomers tried to make sense of
observations. That's the secret Collins, there is no need to talk down
human achievements or trying to squeeze observations into a Greek
framework so theorists can promote themselves as 'enlightened' while
ignoring everything else.

You can't explain the direct/retrogrades of Venus so don't give yourself
some status you don't have.


Completely wrong. I’m referring To Aristarchus of Samos the originator of
the heliocentric theory.


 




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