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NASA proposes artificial magnetic field to make Mars a second home



 
 
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  #11  
Old March 9th 17, 05:50 PM posted to sci.astro,sci.physics
S Ergio
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Default NASA proposes artificial magnetic field to make Mars a secondhome

On 3/9/2017 10:21 AM, Rodney Pont wrote:
On Thu, 9 Mar 2017 08:47:55 -0600, S Ergio wrote:

but the L1 is not in the path of Sun to Mars, where particles go. It is
at L1 way out of the way, 60 degrees off.
diagram here;
http://www.spaceacademy.net.au/libra...s/lagrangp.htm


According to Wikipedia L1 is between Mars and the Sun;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...rangian_points

and I thought L1 was always the one between the two bodies.


you are right, guess I was thinking L4 or L5,

[I make mistake, first of the year, that I know of...]


L1 would be effective

mars is 92,900,000 miles from the sun and L1 was stated as 655,000 miles
out, or 0.7% of the way.

if you double the effective radius from L1, the magnetic field, the
partical would be exposed to the mag field for about 7 seconds from the sun.

I think the magnetic field drops off as d^(-3) nearby L1, but is d^(-2)
after a ways out.

the other problem is a magnetic field generator at L1, will alter paths
of sun generated cosmic rays, charged particals, but will they be
deflected away from Mars, or focus them on mars, or have little effect.
think of orentation of the field to incoming particals, seems like it
would need to be like earths, NS out of the galactic plane



some information here too
https://www-spof.gsfc.nasa.gov/Education/FAQs6.html
  #12  
Old March 9th 17, 07:07 PM posted to sci.astro,sci.physics,sci.physics.relativity,alt.astronomy,rec.arts.sf.written
The Starmaker
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Default NASA proposes artificial magnetic field to make Mars a second home

john wrote:

Just build the Space Elevator right
out to Mars and plug in.


That sounds like a great...proposes!


but don't you want to dig a hole first?

i proposes
to dig a hole
through the earth
to make an elevator
to China, then
keeping building
to Mars.

would i end up upside down in China? or are they upside down??

how do i get to Mars right side up???
  #13  
Old March 9th 17, 08:04 PM posted to sci.astro,sci.physics
Rodney Pont[_6_]
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Default NASA proposes artificial magnetic field to make Mars a second home

On Thu, 9 Mar 2017 10:50:41 -0600, S Ergio wrote:

mars is 92,900,000 miles from the sun and L1 was stated as 655,000 miles
out, or 0.7% of the way.


You're over 50 million miles short with that figure, that's about the
93 million miles Earth is from the sun. Are you getting these from
memory or a dubious source?

--
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and built in 5 years;
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  #14  
Old March 9th 17, 10:31 PM posted to sci.astro,sci.physics
S Ergio
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Default NASA proposes artificial magnetic field to make Mars a secondhome

On 3/9/2017 1:04 PM, Rodney Pont wrote:
On Thu, 9 Mar 2017 10:50:41 -0600, S Ergio wrote:

mars is 92,900,000 miles from the sun and L1 was stated as 655,000 miles
out, or 0.7% of the way.


You're over 50 million miles short with that figure, that's about the
93 million miles Earth is from the sun. Are you getting these from
memory or a dubious source?


picked it from some website, and they are wrong,

is that my second mistake for this year ? Oh no!
  #15  
Old March 10th 17, 03:37 AM posted to sci.astro,sci.physics
Yousuf Khan[_2_]
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Default NASA proposes artificial magnetic field to make Mars a secondhome

On 3/9/2017 9:47 AM, S Ergio wrote:
On 3/8/2017 9:44 PM, Yousuf Khan wrote:
On 3/8/2017 12:51 PM, S Ergio wrote:
thanks for the info,

that dude should have provided the numbers to back himself up, back of
the envelope should do.


I'm sure he has, this is just a popular science article which summarizes
his proposal, and gives you an idea about what some scientists have come
up with. It's up to you to go see his original proposal paper, if you
want more details.

so how much is the field 655,000 miles away from a one T source ?


Actually the magnetic field strength drops away by a factor of inverse
cubed not inverse squared.


so it is far weaker than d^(-2),
for a rough order of magnitude, compair 1 mile out vs 655,000 miles out
1/(655000)^3 = 3.56 * 10^(-18)

so if the source could generate a 1 T field a mile away, then 655,000
miles away the field is 3.56 E-18, so the generator has no field on Mars.



But it really doesn't matter how strong the
magnetic field is at the surface of Mars, just so long as it's ahead of
Mars and it produces a large enough bow shock pattern, similar to how
the bow shock pattern is produced ahead of Earth, diverting the solar
wind away from Earth.


but the L1 is not in the path of Sun to Mars, where particles go. It is
at L1 way out of the way, 60 degrees off.
diagram here;
http://www.spaceacademy.net.au/libra...s/lagrangp.htm


That diagram appears to be wrong, it has the L1 and L2 reversed. Other
sources show the L1 is directly between the planet and the Sun.

http://www.space.com/30302-lagrange-points.html

how much fuel on board with the sattilite need to compensate for pushing
particals around?


Don't know, perhaps they'll find a clever way to use the magnetic field
itself as a propulsion tool to keep it stable in the L1?


nothing to push aginst. one has to eject mass.


Push against the solar wind. If Earth sailors found clever sail designs
to sail against the atmospheric wind hundreds of years ago, I'm sure the
same principles can work against the solar wind.

And who knows, maybe NASA will have completely proven that the EMDRIVE
works by then too, and then there's another way to keep stuff in orbit
properly. We are talking in the distant future for all of this stuff,
after all. :-)


Gamma rays are not deflected and come in at full strength to the ground,
on earth the atmosphere protects us from 95% of them. so how much gamma
can a crew take ? a year or two ?


The magnetic field doesn't protect against any kind of EM radiation, no
matter what. All it protects against is the solar winds. This in turn
creates a shield of the upper atmosphere to protect against the high
energy photons from penetrating into the lower atmosphere.


No such shield on Mars, need a lot of atmosphere, on earth yes, [that is
why we are able to live on the surface of earth, atmosphere blocks most
gammas]


Exactly, the Martian atmosphere is so depleted that we couldn't even get
it to protect us against high-energy photons. So somehow, if we're going
to terraform Mars, we are going to have put the magnetic shield up to
give the atmosphere a fighting chance to thicken up, and then we have to
thicken it up. If we thicken it, without a magnetic shield, it's just
going to thin out again.

Fortunately, gamma rays are usually an uncommon type of photons in the
universe, as most of the gamma rays occur inside the cores of stars
during nuclear fusion, and they all get diffused into lower energy
photons by the time they exit the star's photosphere. Most sources of
raw gamma rays are things such as supernovas and quasars, and those are
very directional in their nature. Another advantage is that these
sources of gamma rays are also pretty distant.


the sun emits gamma, and being distant does not make them weaker,


The Sun emits a small amount of gamma, it mainly emits in the visible
part of the spectrum, especially in the green part of it. Thus we've
evolved to see in the optical ranges. If we grew up on a red dwarf, we'd
evolve to see in the infrared and red part of the spectrum.

By and large, the gamma radiation produced in the core gets bounced
around inside the core and the radiative layers, until it's been reduced
down to at worst UV. 99% of the radiation coming from the Sun is in the
UV, visible, and IR ranges. The remaining 1% is whatever else you have.

http://uv.biospherical.com/student/page3.html

And of course, distance makes radiation weaker, you pointed to it
yourself, its intensity goes down by the square of distance. Gamma Ray
Bursts are aimed directly at the Earth, that's why we see them as GRB's,
otherwise we'd see them only as supernovas. But due to their distance
from us, their gamma rays have little effect on us. If the GRB's were
within a few thousand light-years of us and aimed directly at us, then
we'd be in trouble.

https://www.physicsforums.com/thread...rnovae.312925/


and again, to cosmic rays, at what angle can they be deflected from
orgional their path, using a magnetic field, is it only 1 or 2 degrees ?


Earth's magnetic field doesn't stop cosmic rays either, they tend to hit
the Earth relatively unopposed.


they get changed, typically they smash into the atmosphere and cause
partical showers, into thousands of less energetic particals, and hit
the surface as a disk shape a few hundred meters across and about 1 or 2
meters thick.


They can hit anywhere, it's just that the atmosphere is the first thing
in their path. Some have been known to penetrate to the ground, hence
the reason they try to put neutrino detectors deep underground to avoid
detecting cosmic rays.

Again fortunately due to the fact that
cosmic rays are high energy particles produced by supernovas and active
galactic nuclei, they are relatively rare.


sun makes a lot of them for local use, sun spots etc


Cosmic rays are interstellar, relativistic, and originate out of
blackholes and supernovas. The Sun makes solar winds out of the same
materials (protons and electrons), and they are sub-relativistic.

so there are some questionable points that NASA guy's idea still has.
I think he moved it from the surface, because the path would not be long
enough to effect change, and moving to L1 is good for stability of
orbit, but not for diverting particals in path from sun, then the loss
infield strength...


As stated previously, the L1 is the one in the path of the Sun. So it
will divert solar winds away from the planet behind it.

Yousuf Khan

  #16  
Old March 10th 17, 06:38 AM posted to sci.astro,sci.physics
Rodney Pont[_6_]
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Default NASA proposes artificial magnetic field to make Mars a second home

On Thu, 9 Mar 2017 21:37:48 -0500, Yousuf Khan wrote:

Push against the solar wind. If Earth sailors found clever sail designs
to sail against the atmospheric wind hundreds of years ago, I'm sure the
same principles can work against the solar wind.


Isn't this the ideal application of that magnetic scoop to collect
particles and an ion drive to keep it in position?

--
Faster, cheaper, quieter than HS2
and built in 5 years;
UKUltraspeed http://www.500kmh.com/


  #17  
Old March 10th 17, 06:43 AM posted to sci.astro,sci.physics
Rodney Pont[_6_]
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Default NASA proposes artificial magnetic field to make Mars a second home

On Thu, 9 Mar 2017 15:31:54 -0600, S Ergio wrote:

mars is 92,900,000 miles from the sun and L1 was stated as 655,000 miles
out, or 0.7% of the way.


You're over 50 million miles short with that figure, that's about the
93 million miles Earth is from the sun. Are you getting these from
memory or a dubious source?


picked it from some website, and they are wrong,

is that my second mistake for this year ? Oh no!


I'm not keeping a count but two basic errors in the one thread is some
going. Perhaps you could notify your source website(s) :-)

--
Faster, cheaper, quieter than HS2
and built in 5 years;
UKUltraspeed http://www.500kmh.com/


  #18  
Old March 10th 17, 07:42 AM posted to sci.astro,sci.physics
Yousuf Khan[_2_]
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Posts: 1,692
Default NASA proposes artificial magnetic field to make Mars a secondhome

On 3/9/2017 4:31 PM, S Ergio wrote:
picked it from some website, and they are wrong,

is that my second mistake for this year ? Oh no!


That's at least your 3rd mistake, just in this thread alone. Where are
you picking your sources of information from?

Yousuf Khan
  #19  
Old March 10th 17, 07:51 AM posted to sci.astro,sci.physics
Yousuf Khan[_2_]
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Posts: 1,692
Default NASA proposes artificial magnetic field to make Mars a secondhome

On 3/10/2017 12:38 AM, Rodney Pont wrote:
On Thu, 9 Mar 2017 21:37:48 -0500, Yousuf Khan wrote:

Push against the solar wind. If Earth sailors found clever sail designs
to sail against the atmospheric wind hundreds of years ago, I'm sure the
same principles can work against the solar wind.


Isn't this the ideal application of that magnetic scoop to collect
particles and an ion drive to keep it in position?


Even an ion drive will eventually run out of propellant. Then either you
go up to refuel the ion drive, or just make it a disposable spacecraft,
and when one runs out of fuel, you replace it with another one. Wasteful.

  #20  
Old March 10th 17, 08:21 AM posted to sci.astro,sci.physics
Rodney Pont[_6_]
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Posts: 15
Default NASA proposes artificial magnetic field to make Mars a second home

On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 01:51:59 -0500, Yousuf Khan wrote:

Push against the solar wind. If Earth sailors found clever sail designs
to sail against the atmospheric wind hundreds of years ago, I'm sure the
same principles can work against the solar wind.


Isn't this the ideal application of that magnetic scoop to collect
particles and an ion drive to keep it in position?


Even an ion drive will eventually run out of propellant. Then either you
go up to refuel the ion drive, or just make it a disposable spacecraft,
and when one runs out of fuel, you replace it with another one. Wasteful.


That's why I suggested the scoop, to collect more propellant. I'm sure
I've seen a proposed spacecraft with a huge magnetic scoop collecting
particles to fuel the ion drive.

--
Faster, cheaper, quieter than HS2
and built in 5 years;
UKUltraspeed http://www.500kmh.com/


 




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