Eugene Cernan wants to go back to the past

http://snipurl.com/wozg wrote:

wrote in :



Actually, I was actually thinking about a rational space colonization
infrastructure in LEO and GEO, and then just migrating the components to
wherever they are required, presumably Phobos for shielding, and Ceres
for water. Of course, that requires a rational launch architecture,
something that ESAS most definitely is *NOT*.

Indeed. But a rational launch architecture does not require ignoring
a huge, close, and convenient source of raw materials in favor of
leaps into the unknown.

-- Roy L


If you want huge, close and convenient, you're standing on it.


One *outside* Earth's gravity well. But you knew that.


All you need to do is protect the life-support systems from the
murder-suicide wackos that are all about and you


Ah, so we're back to the 'fix all Earth's problems before going
anywhere' mindset.


get to explore the only
planet in the known universe with actual life on it.


Um, that 'exploration program's' been underway for a few million
years now. (since humans first left east central Africa) It became
self-sustaining long ago, doesn't need any special encouragement or
nursing along at this point, unlike space exploration/habitation.

And I think you meant 'the only planet in the Universe currently
known (to us, at least) to have life on it.'


If you can't pass
that test, you are far too nuts to be allowed past the chainlink fence at
any launch sites, and security has shoot-to-kill rules of engagement in
effect.

Got it? Good. Now get to it.

Oh, yeah... Nobody who hasn't lived in an apartment building passes the
psych tests. If you hate closeness to people, don't apply because there
are no openings for you.


Would military service count?

By your standards, perhaps Japan should lead the first wave of
colonization...

--

Frank

You know what to remove to reply...

Check out my web page: http://www.geocities.com/stardolphin1/link2.htm

"To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the
human spirit."
- Stephen Hawking

Frank Glover wrote:
http://snipurl.com/wozg wrote:

wrote in :



Actually, I was actually thinking about a rational space
colonization infrastructure in LEO and GEO, and then just migrating
the components to
wherever they are required, presumably Phobos for shielding, and
Ceres for water. Of course, that requires a rational launch
architecture, something that ESAS most definitely is *NOT*.

Indeed. But a rational launch architecture does not require ignoring
a huge, close, and convenient source of raw materials in favor of
leaps into the unknown.

-- Roy L


If you want huge, close and convenient, you're standing on it.


One *outside* Earth's gravity well. But you knew that.

But not another deep gravity well, like the moon or Mars.

The moon and Mars are completely delusional near term destinations in
space. The lunar regolith is cooked out of volatiles, and Mars is a huge
planet with an extremely deep gravity well.

All you need to do is protect the life-support systems from the
murder-suicide wackos that are all about and you


Ah, so we're back to the 'fix all Earth's problems before going
anywhere' mindset.

No, just rational destinations. Like space, the moons of Mars and the
asteroids. We're already in space, but as yet we do not have a rational
launch architecture, nor do we have even the most basic of Earth
observation systems in place, and we know almost nothing of the lunar
poles, the regolith of Phobos and Diemos, or the surface of Ceres.

get to explore the only
planet in the known universe with actual life on it.


Um, that 'exploration program's' been underway for a few million
years now. (since humans first left east central Africa) It became
self-sustaining long ago, doesn't need any special encouragement or
nursing along at this point, unlike space exploration/habitation.

We have an ISS where were have no plant growth, no CELSS, no rational
water or air recycling. We haven't even begun the work necessary to
colonize space, and now you idiot want to drop everything, and repeat
something that was already performed six times almost 35 years ago.

Hint : You are irrational.

And I think you meant 'the only planet in the Universe currently
known (to us, at least) to have life on it.'

Life is what the universe does. We have an entire civilization based
upon machines that burn coal, oil and gas, and which uses weapons to
destroy machines and life. What about irrational do you not get.

Our current space program is all about throwing away machines.

http://cosmic.lifeform.org

Thomas Lee Elifritz wrote:

In addition to making lots of dead animals and people, and blowing up
the landscape, destroying all the infrastructure. That's so heroic.

You are a fool too, I see.


Are you saying we should not have fought the war in the Pacific during
WWII ??

That we should have just said: "No, we will not fight, we will just let
them land on our Pacific shore and take over." ... like they did in
China ??

You cannot be a pacifist and expect to survive.

wrote:



Please don't feed the troll.

Thanks.

--
Dave Michelson

wrote:
Thomas Lee Elifritz wrote:
In addition to making lots of dead animals and people, and blowing up
the landscape, destroying all the infrastructure. That's so heroic.

You are a fool too, I see.


Are you saying we should not have fought the war in the Pacific during
WWII ??

War is a direct representation of failure.

That we should have just said: "No, we will not fight, we will just let
them land on our Pacific shore and take over." ... like they did in
China ??

I know, it's terrible how those Vietnamese attacked us without warning,
and that Saddam, with all those WMDs and doing that 9/11 thing and all.

I expect all the muslims and chinese to be on our shores any day now.

Wait, I forgot, they're already here, and lots of them Mexicans too!

Damn, we've just got to fight, there is no other way to rid this planet
of these humans, wildlife, trees, plants, buildings and roads n'stuff.

You cannot be a pacifist and expect to survive.

You, of course, contrary to all available evidence, will live forever.

http://cosmic.lifeform.org

Dave Michelson wrote:

wrote:

Please don't feed the troll.

Yes, no dissent allowed, the decider has decided to decide, and that's
all there is. Follow the deciderer, he knows how modern decides work.

http://cosmic.lifeform.org

Thomas Lee Elifritz wrote in
:

http://snipurl.com/wozg wrote:

wrote in :


Actually, I was actually thinking about a rational space colonization
infrastructure in LEO and GEO, and then just migrating the components
to wherever they are required, presumably Phobos for shielding, and
Ceres for water. Of course, that requires a rational launch
architecture, something that ESAS most definitely is *NOT*.
Indeed. But a rational launch architecture does not require ignoring
a huge, close, and convenient source of raw materials in favor of
leaps into the unknown.

The moon is not an insignificant gravity well, and as far as we know,
contains no readily available water. What I'm proposing, is a rational
lunar, Phobos and Ceres mapping program, as a prelude to exploration.

The goal is 2 year space flights and closed ecological life support.
That just doesn't seem like any great leap into the unknown to me.

In fact, with a functioning ISS and STS, it's just around the corner.

If you want huge, close and convenient, you're standing on it.

No ****. Plenty of water on the planet Earth.

Too bad we aren't launching much of it.

http://cosmic.lifeform.org


Too bad you want to do step 8 on the Ladder to the Planets and the Stars
without spending equal diligence in making sure that steps 1 - 8 are each
done correctly in completion.

You are no better than "them" with helter-skelter obscession on particular
goals without a deep rational course of historical trajectory both before
and after that goal milestone.

You like big noisy explosions like rockets taking off. What teen-age boy
doesn't? Grow up.

Frank Glover wrote in
:

http://snipurl.com/wozg wrote:

wrote in :



Actually, I was actually thinking about a rational space colonization
infrastructure in LEO and GEO, and then just migrating the components
to wherever they are required, presumably Phobos for shielding, and
Ceres for water. Of course, that requires a rational launch
architecture, something that ESAS most definitely is *NOT*.

Indeed. But a rational launch architecture does not require ignoring
a huge, close, and convenient source of raw materials in favor of
leaps into the unknown.

-- Roy L


If you want huge, close and convenient, you're standing on it.


One *outside* Earth's gravity well. But you knew that.


Look in your bank account. If you don't see the money there for what YOU
want, then the dream is OVER. Your insanity thinking other people owe you
space tourism is a bogus as thinking I owe you a two week cruise on Royal
Carribean. Pay your own freight. See how far that takes you.



All you need to do is protect the life-support systems from the
murder-suicide wackos that are all about and you


Ah, so we're back to the 'fix all Earth's problems before going
anywhere' mindset.


No "insane" people are passed by the psyche tests. There's no shortage of
people who WANT to go, and there's no reason to accept the insane due to
any manpower shortages.

Everybody in space is 100% full-time required to be first-responder to
crisis in the life-support systems. If you cannot demonstrate that you
have that mentality, yopu are OUT permanently forever. No insane people
who will allow other to vandalize the life support get boarding passes and
no vandals themselves.

Be prepared to show a track record going back too many years to be faked.
It will be checked.



get to explore the only
planet in the known universe with actual life on it.


Um, that 'exploration program's' been underway for a few million
years now. (since humans first left east central Africa) It became
self-sustaining long ago, doesn't need any special encouragement or
nursing along at this point, unlike space exploration/habitation.

Within my lifetime tectonic plates were discovered. It was recently
discovered that there are 5,000 unique species of life in every teaspoon
of forest soil and another 5000 unique species in a spoonful of
intertidal-zone muck. There are maybe 3,000,000 species with scientific
names, many ae known from one single specimen in a drawer in a museum
collection, with nothing known about it's life-cycle or role in nature.
THere are estimated to be 30,000,000 to maybe 300,000,000 species of life
never detected by anybody with science training.

A person with no curiousity and respect for discovery on this world is
likely to be as unobservant and UNEXPLORING on any other world. You
cannot pass the psych tests without having made important controibutions
to discovery on Earth.

YOU are STRANDED HERE without a boarding pass and without the money to buy
your own transportation.

You need to move on to other dreams, because space is closed off to you
permanently. Have you considered suicide?




And I think you meant 'the only planet in the Universe currently
known (to us, at least) to have life on it.'


If you can't pass
that test, you are far too nuts to be allowed past the chainlink fence
at any launch sites, and security has shoot-to-kill rules of engagement
in effect.

Got it? Good. Now get to it.

Oh, yeah... Nobody who hasn't lived in an apartment building passes the
psych tests. If you hate closeness to people, don't apply because there
are no openings for you.


Would military service count?


It does count. So far the majority of spacelings have come through the
military. But they never got free from Earth-Moon prison and they never
stayed. Anybody who plans on staying better be prepared for the fact that
there are NO single family detached residences in space -- it's ALL
barracks and apartments only.

If you can't hack apartment living -- if it is repulsive to think about,
you are screened out -- no boarding pass, no flight.



By your standards, perhaps Japan should lead the first wave of
colonization...

China. Japan hasn't launched their own man yet, China did. China is
commited to planting a Chinese flag on the moon and Japan isn't.

http://snipurl.com/wozg wrote:
Thomas Lee Elifritz wrote in
:

http://snipurl.com/wozg wrote:

wrote in :


Actually, I was actually thinking about a rational space colonization
infrastructure in LEO and GEO, and then just migrating the components
to wherever they are required, presumably Phobos for shielding, and
Ceres for water. Of course, that requires a rational launch
architecture, something that ESAS most definitely is *NOT*.
Indeed. But a rational launch architecture does not require ignoring
a huge, close, and convenient source of raw materials in favor of
leaps into the unknown.
The moon is not an insignificant gravity well, and as far as we know,
contains no readily available water. What I'm proposing, is a rational
lunar, Phobos and Ceres mapping program, as a prelude to exploration.

The goal is 2 year space flights and closed ecological life support.
That just doesn't seem like any great leap into the unknown to me.

In fact, with a functioning ISS and STS, it's just around the corner.

If you want huge, close and convenient, you're standing on it.
No ****. Plenty of water on the planet Earth.

Too bad we aren't launching much of it.

Too bad you want to do step 8 on the Ladder to the Planets and the Stars
without spending equal diligence in making sure that steps 1 - 8 are each
done correctly in completion.

We are at the continuously manned LEO part of the ladder. Six month
flights on the ISS are routine. However, we still load up the progresses
with trash and reenter them into the atmosphere, and we don't grow any
plants to clean the atmosphere or create food for the astronauts. All of
that could be done on the ISS right now. With plant growth, nothing is
stopping us from transporting those flight components to where shielding
material and water can be easily obtained. Thus, the whole exercise
involves working out how to live in orbit, identifying the sources of
water, and then moving components to the location where water can be
obtained. I posit water can be obtained right here in low earth orbit,
from Earth, with large cryogenic launchers. The next available source
may be on the poles of the moon, where we are confronted with a deep
gravity well, and perpetual darkness. After that, it's Mars, also a very
deep gravity well. Phobos and Ceres are the next logical destinations.
Those sorts of missions require long duration space flight, as does
operations in low earth orbit. The only difference between low earth
orbit and deep space are radiation levels, sunlight levels and temp.

You are no better than "them" with helter-skelter obscession on particular
goals without a deep rational course of historical trajectory both before
and after that goal milestone.

Things change with time. We only recently realized we have no idea what
is going on at the lunar poles and on Ceres. We have very abruptly
recognized our lack of understanding, thus when mission are fixed in
metal, they are likely to fail, as new understanding is achieved.
However, mission even to near earth asteroids require long duration
space flight, and most of the co-orbital asteroids are likely lunar.

We have high Isp electric thrusters now. Large pieces of infrastructure
or small reconnaissance satellites can be delivered anywhere we want to
put them, unmanned, using solar electric power. Hydrogen, being the
lightest of atoms and molecules, is also the most efficient fuel for
electric thrusters, and we breathe oxygen. That's water right there. We
drink the water, and so do plants. I just can't make it work with oil.

You like big noisy explosions like rockets taking off. What teen-age boy
doesn't? Grow up.

What exactly is wrong with my plan to launch lots of water to low earth
orbit using reusable and retrofittable cryogenic launch vehicles? I have
no other way right now of doing what needs to be done, which is to
colonize low earth orbit for space tourism, to be able to give people
the bigger view of Earth, in order to instill some rationality in them,
and to enable a much larger earth monitoring system for climate change,
and to develop the techniques of energy conversion and conservation.

Cryogenic rockets are like electric elevators, using chemical power.
Chemical power is electricity. I want to reduce the noise level, but
unfortunately rocketry has economy of scale. Small solid fuel rockets
are the most expensive rockets around, per unit mass. Large cryogenic
rockets with high flight rates are the only way to reduce cost to orbit.
That requires full reusability or recycling of the components at least.

Using a solid rocket (SRB) for the boost stage of a manned space flight
vehicle (Stick, Ares I, Orion) is not only irrational, it's just insane.

I wouldn't even trust a GEM-60 - Delta II Failure - January 17, 1997.

Our next destination in space : geosynchronous orbit. All of this is
horribly expensive, and must be done like climbing a pyramid, but it's
small change compared to waging continuous war on the surface of Earth.

http://cosmic.lifeform.org

Thomas Lee Elifritz wrote in
:

http://snipurl.com/wozg wrote:
Thomas Lee Elifritz wrote in
:

http://snipurl.com/wozg wrote:

wrote in :


Actually, I was actually thinking about a rational space
colonization infrastructure in LEO and GEO, and then just migrating
the components to wherever they are required, presumably Phobos for
shielding, and Ceres for water. Of course, that requires a rational
launch architecture, something that ESAS most definitely is *NOT*.
Indeed. But a rational launch architecture does not require
ignoring a huge, close, and convenient source of raw materials in
favor of leaps into the unknown.
The moon is not an insignificant gravity well, and as far as we know,
contains no readily available water. What I'm proposing, is a rational
lunar, Phobos and Ceres mapping program, as a prelude to exploration.

The goal is 2 year space flights and closed ecological life support.
That just doesn't seem like any great leap into the unknown to me.

In fact, with a functioning ISS and STS, it's just around the corner.

If you want huge, close and convenient, you're standing on it.
No ****. Plenty of water on the planet Earth.

Too bad we aren't launching much of it.

Too bad you want to do step 8 on the Ladder to the Planets and the
Stars without spending equal diligence in making sure that steps 1 - 8
are each done correctly in completion.

We are at the continuously manned LEO part of the ladder.

Nawww. This is only thrashing about. As you yourself point out, it's not
any coherent plan.

Step #1 is H2-PV. The H2 supply must be universally available without
possibility of corporate monopoly. It has to be available and cheap.
People need to be comfortable about it.

That's the objection I always have about your insistence of dragging
liquid H2 into discussions of local transportation fuel. LH2 cars are not
likely to happen, because it isn't necessary with 35ksi pressure tanks and
it eats 35% of the energy per kg.

LH2 will always be a specialty item for trained technicians to deal with,
not any commonplace public commodity.

The H2-PV economy allows a turnover in industrialists to a new generation
not married to petroleum thinking. The private fortunes will be made there
to provide the next step on the ladder. The fossilized thinking of the
Generation-Xxon must be kicked out of the driver's seat for reasons you
know as well as reasons you don't yet know about. Wait until the
Truth-Commissions tell all!!!

Step 2 based on the same super-strength materials technology will change
aerodynamics to accomodate populated LH2 flying fuel tanks. Basically new
aircraft mostly fuel tanks with isolated crew compartments.

This is not going to be realized until step 1 is solidified.

Step 3 is SSTO fliers lofting components to LEO. 1500 flights per month,
10-day turnaround each craft of a fleet of 500 plus spares and parts.
H2-PV has to be successful enough to finance that, because government
oiperations are failures as you point out so often.

Step 4 is LEO habitats. Forget all that crap about launching special
purpose satellites. A single LEO habitat is 10,000 satellite function in
one with 24/7 maintenance personnel. Space manufacturing has to justify
the flight numbers with something of physical exchange value returned on
inbound flights. From here GEO habitats are sustained and supplied. Some
outbound exploration of robots will launch from here with staged depots
providing the launch capability.

Step 5 is GEO habitats, additionally useful for 10,000 satellite functions
in different ways than LEO orbiters.

Step 6: O'Neill colonies at L5 for example.

Step 7: Movable O'Neill habitats with propulsion.

Sep 8: Extraterrestrial gravity-based stations.

You are fixed on step 8 before 1-7 are in place. It's just SciFi dreams
without any more rationale than NASA who you complain about.


The cost is too high to do just "because". Nobody is expected to pay your
freight or anybody else's. Nobody flies without being trained in at least
two specialties and doing some useful practical work. Nobody goes as pure
tourist or pure scientist satisfying "curiousity". If you don't like those
rules build your own god damned space fleet and habitats with your money
out of your bank account.

The Generation-Xxon mentailty that others owe you something but you don't
owe back is over. That mentaility nearly killed the whole world.

I already explained some of the rules -- if you can't stand apartment
living, hate closeness, value seperation and lots of privacy, space is
closed to you. If you can't pass a psych test to frog march an offender to
the airlock and push them out for vandalism to life-support systems, you
don't have the "right stuff". No space for you.

If you can't try to understand the intricacies of organic food webs
required for self-sustaining space living, you don't get past the
chainlink fence security perimeter. No space for you.

So as you can see there are ground rules before step one can be
undertaken. A new form of education system has to be emplaced that permits
people to get PhD equivilents in a couple of non-related fields and broad
and deep educations in general at an early age. Pretty much anyone might
be called on to do basic field surgery or radio repairs or computer
programming or tending crops so that there are NO CROP FAILURES EVER.

Security background checks will delve into how deep these habits are all
ingrained by lifetime commitment. Nobody needs any psychopaths in zero-g.
Nutcases can't fake years of doing the right stuff.

It's time the SciFi opium dreams faced reality. Thses rules are written in
stone. They don't change for anybody.


Six month
flights on the ISS are routine. However, we still load up the progresses
with trash and reenter them into the atmosphere, and we don't grow any
plants to clean the atmosphere or create food for the astronauts. All of
that could be done on the ISS right now. With plant growth, nothing is
stopping us from transporting those flight components to where shielding
material and water can be easily obtained. Thus, the whole exercise
involves working out how to live in orbit, identifying the sources of
water, and then moving components to the location where water can be
obtained. I posit water can be obtained right here in low earth orbit,
from Earth, with large cryogenic launchers. The next available source
may be on the poles of the moon, where we are confronted with a deep
gravity well, and perpetual darkness. After that, it's Mars, also a very
deep gravity well. Phobos and Ceres are the next logical destinations.
Those sorts of missions require long duration space flight, as does
operations in low earth orbit. The only difference between low earth
orbit and deep space are radiation levels, sunlight levels and temp.

You are no better than "them" with helter-skelter obscession on
particular goals without a deep rational course of historical
trajectory both before and after that goal milestone.

Things change with time. We only recently realized we have no idea what
is going on at the lunar poles and on Ceres. We have very abruptly
recognized our lack of understanding, thus when mission are fixed in
metal, they are likely to fail, as new understanding is achieved.
However, mission even to near earth asteroids require long duration
space flight, and most of the co-orbital asteroids are likely lunar.

We have high Isp electric thrusters now. Large pieces of infrastructure
or small reconnaissance satellites can be delivered anywhere we want to
put them, unmanned, using solar electric power. Hydrogen, being the
lightest of atoms and molecules, is also the most efficient fuel for
electric thrusters, and we breathe oxygen. That's water right there. We
drink the water, and so do plants. I just can't make it work with oil.

You like big noisy explosions like rockets taking off. What teen-age
boy doesn't? Grow up.

What exactly is wrong with my plan to launch lots of water to low earth
orbit using reusable and retrofittable cryogenic launch vehicles? I have
no other way right now of doing what needs to be done, which is to
colonize low earth orbit for space tourism, to be able to give people
the bigger view of Earth, in order to instill some rationality in them,
and to enable a much larger earth monitoring system for climate change,
and to develop the techniques of energy conversion and conservation.

Cryogenic rockets are like electric elevators, using chemical power.
Chemical power is electricity. I want to reduce the noise level, but
unfortunately rocketry has economy of scale. Small solid fuel rockets
are the most expensive rockets around, per unit mass. Large cryogenic
rockets with high flight rates are the only way to reduce cost to orbit.
That requires full reusability or recycling of the components at least.

Using a solid rocket (SRB) for the boost stage of a manned space flight
vehicle (Stick, Ares I, Orion) is not only irrational, it's just insane.

I wouldn't even trust a GEM-60 - Delta II Failure - January 17, 1997.

Our next destination in space : geosynchronous orbit. All of this is
horribly expensive, and must be done like climbing a pyramid, but it's
small change compared to waging continuous war on the surface of Earth.

http://cosmic.lifeform.org